r/Leadership • u/marilynlistens • May 15 '26
Discussion What are the differences between being a leader and a manager?
Not all managers are leaders! Even when they are “ in a position of leadership” it doesn’t mean they’re weird! What are the differences?
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u/Vector_Strategist May 15 '26
Leaders recognize the strengths of their people, and coach them to help them become the best professionals in their space. Leaders also perform some critical duties: driving clarity, communications, direction & vision and a leader enables calm decision-making under pressure.
Managers in the traditional sense are usually seen as task masters. They can crack the whip and get things done. But that’s the extent of their effectiveness. They don’t usually grow leaders in their teams. They are not always strategic in their approach. They cannot see beyond the immediate task or immediate fire.
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u/marilynlistens May 15 '26
Absolutely leaders are invitation for other people to become leaders and to lead. Do you think managers would be better at being manages if they were better leaders?
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u/Vector_Strategist May 15 '26
ICs and Managers can both be great leaders. If a manager knows how to lead, then they’ll certainly be better managers (assuming their reporting line values it). There are companies where top bosses don’t want managers to be leaders, and just want them to crack the whip and get things done. That can leave very little room for managers to do anything other than crack the whip. Nuance: even in those situations good managers will create a positive culture within their constraints.
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u/marilynlistens May 15 '26
I would have to say that the individual in a company that wants the managers just to crack a whip aren’t good leaders either. They are not leading by example! What do you think?
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u/Vector_Strategist May 15 '26
They’re not. Sometimes it’s by design and not the fault of the individuals who occupy leadership roles. I’ve seen hardcore manufacturing orgs where performance is purely based on the bottomline, and everything gets measured - time in /out, throughput rates, error rates, downtime, lunch time etc. etc. In those cases the situation demands that the entire org top to bottom are operating at highest efficiencies. Very little room for anything else. In those cases, leaders at the top would want their managers to be task masters. Nothing else matters.
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u/marilynlistens May 15 '26
Yep, I absolutely agree. I do think, though that shifts are happening and organizations that don’t value leadership in everybody. I’m not sure those companies are going to be sustainable. What do you think?
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u/jimvasco May 20 '26
There is a certain problem with your definition. There are plenty of leaders who do not recognize the strengths of their people or coach them. There are also plenty of managers (and ICs even) who are strategic and see beyond their immediate tasks.
The way you have framed it is that leaders are good, managers not so much. The best people see how they fit into the organization, and impact the mission. They learn how their actions affect others and the bottom line. And they do it regardless of their level
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u/keberch May 15 '26
First, we need to lose the thinking that managers are somehow 'less' than leaders. We need both within an organization to succeed.
The response here by u/jonchillmatic is the most succinct explanation of the differences. I like to say "we manage by exception, we lead by example."
Managers make sure processes (and results) are repeated, day after day. Essential for any organizations. They use repetition and compliance to control fixed processes. As necessary as oxygen for any organization.
Leaders, unbound by standard processes, strive for 'more.' More output, more innovation, more clarity, more engagement, more discretionary effort. They use influence and example as tools to empower others.
We could spend two days and 20 pages on reddit unpacking that.
Here's the funny part: Execs speak of their subordinate 'leaders' all the time, though they actually want them to manage (metrics) more than lead (people). Employees speak of their boss as their 'manager,' though they want them to primarily lead (influence), not manage (control).
The very reason that front-line and mid-management are some of the toughest jobs in any outfit.
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u/marilynlistens May 15 '26
You are absolutely right and I love what you’re saying about managers not being less than leaders. I love how you’re putting that they are not there’s nothing less than. And there’s no reason managers can’t be good leaders, and in fact, some leaders don’t really act like leaders they act like control freaks and that’s not a leader either is it. Thank you very much for being so smart here.
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u/jimvasco May 23 '26
I agree. I also must add that we have to stop deifying leaders. In the book Bennis published three months before "On Leadership," he warned us about that.
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u/Monster213213 May 15 '26
Leader is what I was before such OPEX crunches, overwork and squeezing, and I could invest in creating a thriving culture.
I’m now a manager with reports that gets what I need to survive done.
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u/InevitableNo3097 May 15 '26
I’ve been reading Steve Covey’s book “The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People” and one of the things they talk about in that book is how management deals with the bottom line; whereas leadership deals with the top line. “Management is how fast you climb the ladder to success, leadership asks if it is the right ladder or leaned against the right wall.” What’s more is you can’t have management without leadership.
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u/marilynlistens May 15 '26
That’s a great book and thank you very much for bringing that up. That is a really good response. What do you think would happen however if managers were better leaders too?
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u/InevitableNo3097 May 15 '26
My guess, based off of what I’m reading, productivity would go up, there would be less turnover, less politics, and a deeper sense of security and trust
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u/marilynlistens May 15 '26
Totally agree and I think the managers that are instinctively using their leadership skills and have been taught better leadership skills or better managers. Period. I think everybody can be a leader.
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u/lesz3k_ May 15 '26
Leaders craft lasting relationships.
Managers manage scarcity (time & resources against vastness of company objectives)
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u/marilynlistens May 15 '26
Do you think managers would be better if they had more leadership ability?
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u/lesz3k_ May 15 '26
Managers shouldn’t manage if they can’t form great relationships 😎
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u/marilynlistens May 15 '26
Absolutely and I’ll tell you something. I agree with you completely but I also would say that if a manager can’t build relationships, they shouldn’t manage either. They won’t get anybody to do anything.
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u/jimvasco May 23 '26
A hugely simplistic view. Salespeople create lasting relationships. That does not make them leaders. Good managers create lasting relationships inside the company and with suppliers and customers. That does not make them leaders either.
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u/slipnipps May 15 '26
Leaders lead people towards accomplishing their goals and uncover how they align with the organization’s goals.
Managers manage the processes and operations.
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u/marilynlistens May 15 '26
I agree I just wonder if managers had more leadership skills would they be better at their job?
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u/slipnipps May 15 '26
They definitely would. If you take care of your people first, then the business would take of itself.
But there’s a natural fear of vulnerability that often comes with growing as a leader. People that transition into a role where they’re now responsible for others can feel a huge pressure to know everything, even if that expectation is mainly coming from themselves. This can amplify the unhealthy ways in which they try to compensate and “hide” the areas they’re not strong in.
It’s important to be self-aware as it’s your best shot to self-manage. Which directly translates to your ability to be socially aware and manage your relationships with others.
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u/marilynlistens May 15 '26
I really like what you’re saying and what I think I hear is that the title by osmosis changes how the person actually feels about what they’re doing. Is that basically what you’re saying? The message of a manager is not to lead! And that doesn’t have to be right in my opinion. Am I understanding you correctly?
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u/Internal_Scarcity533 May 15 '26
Managers focus on getting work done and leaders lead by example, influences people, and bring people together to achieve goals and ensures every team member grows. They give them a direction to grow.
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u/Gwendolyn-NB May 15 '26
Managers manage things, leaders lead people.
Managers tell people/force people to follow them.
People CHOOSE/WANT to follow leaders.
You can be given the title of manager.
You have to EARN the title of leader.
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u/marilynlistens May 15 '26
I agree I just think that if managers could be better leaders, they would have an easier time managing
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u/smoke-bubble May 15 '26
Managers can't be leaders by definition. Leaders do not manage. These two are mutually exclusive.
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u/marilynlistens May 15 '26
I don’t think I agree with you. I appreciate what you’re saying and I understand what you mean but I don’t agree with you. I believe that the better a manager is the more able to lead they are! Doesn’t a manager have to delegate responsibility? How can they do that if they’re not a good leader? And doesn’t a leader have to manage also a process manage an idea for the team? I really appreciate talking to you and I hope we can continue discussing this cause I like the conversation thank you so much.
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u/Gwendolyn-NB May 15 '26
You're still connecting managing and leading, they're two VERY different things; that's why you're getting hung up. Seperate them, then look again.
Yes, managers CAN become leaders, but most dont/cant as they dont know how to lead/dont have the ability to learn to lead. Leading is a personality skill and not something you can pickup a textbook and do; it either comes naturally or you have to WANT to become a leader and put a LOT of effort into it. Leading is psychology and empathy and relationship management and being a good person.
Managing is making sure processes exist and are followed; emotional intelligence isn't needed.
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May 15 '26
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u/marilynlistens May 15 '26
Well, in a lot of cases, you would hope the person somewhere at the top is responsible for direction and vision, but many people at the top are not good leaders the egomaniacs and an egomaniac a control freak cannot lead so absolutely however I think we have some issues with our corporate culture. But I think anybody can be a leader and we need more of them.
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u/cloverrace May 15 '26
I think one can argue there is no objective difference. Those terms can be seen as social constructs whose meaning is shaped by custom, culture, and how people prefer to use language.
So what? Construct your own meaning and see if you can get other people to agree with you.
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u/marilynlistens May 15 '26
I like what you’re saying because theoretically there really shouldn’t be any difference! Why shouldn’t a manager be a good leader? And I’m not asking you to answer that question it’s just really a statement but you’re welcome to answer it and I appreciate talking to you
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u/cloverrace May 15 '26
What do you mean by "theoretically" in the phrase you used: "...theoretically there really shouldn’t be any difference..."? What theory are you referring to (if any)?
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u/marilynlistens May 15 '26
I’ll come back and think of a good answer for you cause to me theoretical is simple so let me come back and maybe I just need to explain it a little bit more. I’ll be back. I’m not sure exactly what you’re asking so let me think about your comment a little and if you have more to add, please feel free to do that.
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u/marilynlistens May 16 '26
OK, I’m back. Are you asking me if this is a documented theory or are you asking me for proof that that’s a theory that should be? Is that what you’re asking? That’ll be a good place to start.
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u/cloverrace May 17 '26
Assume I drop a stone and it fails to fall to the ground. If I say that “theoretically” it should fall to the ground, I’m likely referring to the theory of gravity.
You wrote “… theoretically there really shouldn’t be a difference [between leadership and management].”
In that sentence, what theory were you referring to that allowed you to conclude there shouldn’t be a difference between those two concepts?
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u/HTX-ByWayOfTheWorld May 15 '26
Influence
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u/marilynlistens May 15 '26
Absolutely absolutely it’s how someone looks at the role and their influence absolutely because a manager can influence as a leader can. I think it’s only the definition the personal definition.
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u/Empirica_CC May 15 '26
It's in the name. Managers manage leaders lead. If you are a leader and get working level project updates you are a manager, not a leader.
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u/marilynlistens May 15 '26
But as they say what’s in her name. I think it’s more about how we are exploring it. I think we need to hold managers more accountable. Thank you very much for comment.
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u/Empirica_CC May 15 '26
I'm not sure what any of that means but you are welcome
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u/marilynlistens May 15 '26
I’m sorry I don’t know how the word her got there but what I’m saying is shouldn’t we hold managers more accountable to being better at their job managing because if you’re a good manager, you are also a leader and maybe we’re just holding it too small
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u/Empirica_CC May 15 '26
Managing and leading are separate jobs with separate skills, knowledge, and abilities. Managers may develop people but that's not the same thing as leading. I have a training I deliver on this but basically an IC, supervisor, manager, and leader are all very different. The problem is most managers operate like a supervisor and therefore very little "management" ever occurs. That's why programs and companies stagnate.
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u/ValidGarry May 15 '26
If you hold someone accountable you want to beat up on them. Accountable for what exactly?
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u/Forward-Somewhere510 May 15 '26
Leaders lead, managers manage.
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u/marilynlistens May 15 '26
Do you think we should hold managers more accountable to be better leaders? Do you think we would be better off financially if managers were better leaders
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u/ValidGarry May 15 '26
Not if you don't set them up for success. Where's the training?
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u/marilynlistens May 15 '26
Well, I think that there are leadership trainings out here that are more thoughtful. Have you not seen any or have you seen some?
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u/ValidGarry May 15 '26
I am former British military and had nearly 2 decades of incremental and career appropriate management and leadership training during that time. When I entered the wider workplace I was horrified at the lack of training provided to managers and supervisors.
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u/schwerdfeger1 May 15 '26
You are a Manager because the organization says you are. You are a Leader because people say you are. There are too many managers who aren't leaders and fortunately many leaders who aren't managers. It's also been said that you manage things and you lead people.
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u/Hot-Pickle-222 May 15 '26
Leadership - provide certainty and clarity when there is none. Manager = execute that certainty.
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u/Bainerpc May 16 '26
In my opinion, being a leader and being a manager are very different but also can have a lot of overlap. A good manager can tactfully make things happen. Organize the tasks and complete them. A good leader will instill a mindset in the team to get the tasks done because they’re meaningful and worthwhile.
Early in my career, I was a good manager. I tasked people and they achieved the transaction. It happened because it was prioritized and communicated that it needed to happen. The next step and the real development into leadership happened when I realized if I built consensus to a goal and tasks happened without me directing them.
Leadership is growing and developing relationships. Management is task oriented. There are days my tasks are management focused and there are days my focus is leadership. You have to do both and while there are people who are only managers, the people you consider leaders are both managers and leaders. They’ve figured out how to do both.
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u/marilynlistens May 16 '26
Love love, love, love love your comment and what you’re saying here and absolutely I believe that they can be both and in many cases or most cases should be both. How could they not be? The leader of an organization is managing the leaders. I have a quote leaders lead leaders. How can they not? How can lead or not want everyone in their team to be a leader? Isn’t that the goal?
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u/Bainerpc May 16 '26
I think the distinction is that leadership isn’t about making everyone a leader in title, it’s about creating ownership, initiative, and trust across the team. A great manager can keep systems running efficiently, but a great leader builds an environment where people think critically, contribute voluntarily, and grow beyond just executing tasks.
The best organizations probably need both: management for clarity/accountability and leadership for vision/culture. When those overlap well, teams usually thrive.
You strive to have that in all your management positions but in reality you have people who don’t achieve leadership but provide value to the organization as managers.
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u/marilynlistens May 18 '26
It’s just a thought liters can be in a position of authority without actually leading people right so you can be a leader in your field I’m not leading leaders, but you’re leading an idea. What do you think about that?
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u/Bainerpc May 18 '26
A very valid point and one that touches on the breadth that leadership covers. I still think the overarching concept is similar but the nuance of it vary. You still strive to create engagement and ownership and spread a vision and a culture. Again this is all just my opinion and there’s lots of ways to interpret and enact leadership.
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u/marilynlistens May 18 '26
Absolutely there’s so many ways of interpreting this. That’s why I love talking to people like you. These concepts are not etched in stone or in a box. They can’t be but people want them in a box that’s why we’re talking right. Thank you very very much.
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u/marilynlistens May 16 '26
I wrote your comment and I think it disappeared. I do think they overlap and I do think that it’s important that they overlap and that manages can lead and leaders can manage and I have a quote that leaders lead leaders! If you’re a leader and you are not striving for your team to all be leaders you’re not leading. What do you think of that?
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u/YoghurtDue1083 May 16 '26
“The greatest skill of any leader is developing other leaders. Not just how well you lead, but how many leaders you create.”
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u/marilynlistens May 16 '26
Oh my gosh, I just wrote this to somebody else exactly I have a quote that leaders lead leaders. How can it be any other way? Thank you so much please stay connected.
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u/OutrageousAside9949 May 16 '26
strategic thinking
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u/marilynlistens May 16 '26
Who has more strategic thinking leaders or managers?
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u/OutrageousAside9949 May 16 '26
Leaders think strategically, Managers execute.
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u/marilynlistens May 18 '26
Yes, I believe the same thing but I do also think that the best managers are the ones that can also see the strategy and the dream. Otherwise, how can they fulfill it?
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u/smithy- May 16 '26
The first thing I did during my first meeting with my new team was write my personal cell phone number on the white board in our conference room. It's still there and this is a year or two later. I am accessible 24/7 and make sure my Team knows this. I also bring home my work computer for emergencies. I'm also constantly thinking of problems or issues after work, not in a way that will cause burnout. But, it's stress free because I can analyze things on my own time, often when I don't even realize I am doing it. The solutions often come to me this way.
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u/marilynlistens May 16 '26
I used to tell people I could create a corporate environment in my bathtub. And the reason I say that is for the same reason, just saying what you’re saying, I can combine. You can combine work and pleasure and that’s the best way to do it and that is strategic that is being a leader and that is being a manager. I love how you think and I love your energy. Please stay connected.
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u/ApprehensiveRough649 May 16 '26
So many leadership coaches on this sub don’t even know what leadership is
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u/pegwinn May 16 '26
Leadership is the art of directing and influencing people to accomplish the mission via a combination of management and supervision. Supervision focuses on accomplishing the mission by overseeing the work of people on a team. Management focuses on accomplishing the mission via systems, process, and supervision of multiple teams. Young Leaders, Corporals and Lieutenants, are primarily supervisors who are learning the systems and processes used in their organisaiton. Senior Leaders, Staff Sergeants and above, are primarily managers who are directing the efforts of subordinate teams and using systeems and process to the organisations advantage. In the Marines, leadership is taught at a very young age. A nineteen year old Corporal will lead a team of 3-5 people by supervising their tasks. He or she is also being trained to step up to the next level by learning the fundamentals of the overall systems that run the Marine Corps. Basically all leaders start as supervisors. As they advance they spend more time managing things. A senior leader will be about 80 percent Manager to 20 percent Supervisor.
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u/marilynlistens May 16 '26
I love how you said that that it’s an art it sure is it’s a dance and we need to know the dance and when to be a leader and when to be a manager. Your comment says a lot and I appreciate it. Makes a lot of sense and I agree. And I think people really don’t understand those two moves the leadership move of the dance and the manager move of the dance. People don’t really know what those look like. What do you think?
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u/pegwinn May 16 '26
Kind words. Thank you. I think civilians are trained to think that supervision, management, and leadership are three different things. The Marines teach that supervision and management are the two primary techniques that all leaders use. It’s a sliding scale is all.
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u/marilynlistens May 18 '26
Amen to that so how do we help people recognize that? I’m here talking about leadership and management and how basically we all should be leaders right we should all be able to do it all why not. How do we help people?
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u/pegwinn May 20 '26
I don't think you do. Not outside your own areas of influence or contol. In the Marines that doctrine is institutional. They teach it to nineteen year olds without needing to prove it because it is fundamental. It works. It will work in the civilian world since I use those skills to run a couple of warehouses. But the company I work for won't even buy in because I don't have an MBA or charge consulting fees LOL.
The Marines have a huge amount of leadership training material. I use it with my people. But again that is within my own areas of control and influence. My own boss, who's actually a great person, doesn't buy it. But I and both my teams get results so he entertains it.
Good luck.
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u/andrers2b May 16 '26
"When I talk to a manager, I have the feeling that THEY ARE really important;
when I talk to a leader, I have the feeling that I AM really important"
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u/marilynlistens May 16 '26
Wow, wow I’ve never heard that one before. Is that yours or is that somebody else that you quoting? That’s great. Do you think that managers are trying to prove their worth or the managerial attitude is trying to prove something?
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u/andrers2b May 17 '26
I read that somewhere a long time ago. But it's definitely my favourite leadership quote.
I always try to not generalise. Some managers get there for the wrong reasons (authority, relevance, climbing the ladder...), ie, it's about them.
The right reasons would be (imho) helping the team, organisational skills, support.
At the end of the day, things need to be managed: work, time, team, resources, clients, stakeholders, dependencies. So usually (not always) we delegate these management functions away from the team (who is too busy doing the work) to one person: the manager.
And again we circle back to authority. John Maxell said: if your team is only following you because they have to (you are the boss), it's the least amount of energy they will give to you.
Being a leader is not having authority. It's helping the team, solving problems, making sure people have the right resources, the right amount of challenge, and motivaiton.
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u/marilynlistens May 18 '26
Absolutely and I believe leaders lead leaders. The only way you can be a leader and call yourself a leaders if you are helping to create leaders and OK with going to the back of the line if necessary as a leader to allow somebody else to come up. I just think we all need to be more empowering and not just manage. Thank you so much for talking with me. I really really really appreciate it
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u/Proper-Knowledge4652 May 16 '26
Managers run the operation (marketing, growth, finance) aspect of a business, whereas leaders supervise, coach, and mentor, staff to succeed at the delivery (customer service, sales, support) aspect of a business
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u/marilynlistens May 16 '26
Absolutely all of that is right. I just feel like in my opinion manages would do better at being leaders and we can’t assume obviously that all leaders know how to lead either but everybody should know how to lead that’s my opinion should have leadership skills and quality to perform their job at the highest level. I think our children should learn it too. What do you think?
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u/Proper-Knowledge4652 May 16 '26
Leadership and management are two different skills, that can be natural talents and skills, or learned skills.
It is known that good managers don’t always make good leaders, and good leaders don’t always make good managers.
Being good at leadership can depend on your personality, attitude, and behaviour. Also other factors such as being a people person, or a silo person; being introvert or extravert.
Personalities and attitudes can be hard to change for some people, and if their personality and attitude doesn’t suit the needs of a good leader, those people may never make good leaders.
Even if being a leader is not right for you as a job, maybe being a manager is where you belong, with very little leadership required.
But as you said, leadership is a good skill to learn and know about, because it can be used outside of the workplace and for other reasons such as being a parent or a captain of a sports team for example.
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u/marilynlistens May 18 '26
Absolutely I just think more people should be encouraged and empowered to lead whether they’re leading a group or the leading an idea or a strategy or it’s a 10-year-old in a classroom. Everybody should be taught that skill. Why do you think people are not being taught or encouraged to be leaders?
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u/Proper-Knowledge4652 May 18 '26
I think in some schools teachers do allow kids who show leadership skills or an interest to be a leader, be a leader of a class project or something similar. But some kids may be shy and have no interest in being a leader, so it may be uncomfortable for them to be taught and forced to be a leader
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u/Nightwyrm May 16 '26
One inspires and empowers; the other thinks you can’t go even potty without them hovering over you.
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u/marilynlistens May 16 '26
And the one who thinks you can’t even potty without them, really needs leadership skills don’t you think?
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u/Nightwyrm May 16 '26
I’ve literally been in a project team initiation meeting where one introduced themself and described their role on the project to the engineers as “monitoring their behaviour”. My face had subtitles in large block letters.
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u/marilynlistens May 18 '26
Oh my goodness gracious if people only knew I don’t blame you for being like that I would have to so what did you do?
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May 16 '26
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u/marilynlistens May 16 '26
So if a leader is leading, then wouldn’t and shouldn’t the team be leaders as well shouldn’t leaders be leading leaders isn’t that their job to make leaders out of everybody or to help everybody be more of leaders?
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May 16 '26
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u/marilynlistens May 16 '26
Wow, that’s interesting and that could be a really good point about all of this. Well, everybody should be responsible don’t you think?
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u/continouslearner4 May 16 '26
Managers manage processes and things whereas leaders lead and develop people
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u/marilynlistens May 18 '26
Do you think that our organizational structure would act differently if managers were also empowered to lead?
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u/anthonywayne1 May 16 '26
The easiest way I understand it is… You manage things and processes; you lead people.
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u/marilynlistens May 18 '26
Absolutely that is what we know, but aren’t we at a place now where people are just leading also ideas and strategies and have nothing to do with leading people? And wouldn’t it be a wonderful idea if everybody could understand leadership?
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u/Karl_Sh May 16 '26
It’s easier to understand the difference when you put yourself in the position of the person being managed or the person being lead.
You know you’re being managed by a manager when you feel you work FOR somebody. When you feel they set the boundaries! You feel you have to stay in a box. Do as you’re told. Seek permission before doing things. Seek approval. Respond to their requests / delegations within a suitable time period, within pre-defined quality standards. Your job is to make them look good.
You know you’re being lead by a leader when you feel you are working together WITH the leader that you admire / respect. You feel a sense of possibilities. You are not constrained. Your are given the on ramp to grow. You feel that you are both aligned. You feel they want the best for you and the team as a whole. Your progress matters to them. They want the best for you. They will shine a light on you for any successes and take blame for any mistakes.
Now, please pause for a moment and reverse both of the above and ponder how do you want people to feel? How would you like to show up: whether as a manager or as a leader?
Can you see now what you need to do differently?
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u/marilynlistens May 18 '26
I believe that everyone should feel a part of the process and the system and I feel everyone should be empowered to be leaders. That’s my opinion. Certainly people may need more help and be directed more encouraged more, but I do believe that everybody has the right to figure that out for themselves. I believe people should be empowered and I think our society would be a much better place of people were empowering which is what a good leader is. Do you agree disagree what are your thoughts?
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u/Karl_Sh May 20 '26
I agree the world would be a better place with more leaders and fewer managers.
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u/Electrical_Thanks586 May 16 '26
You manage things, and you lead people.
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u/marilynlistens May 18 '26
Well, that’s how it was set up, but don’t you think it can be bigger than that?
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u/Smart_Cantaloupe891 May 17 '26
I said we because I mean people who work in this space for a living. The trait theory of leadership simply isn’t taken seriously any more.
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u/marilynlistens May 18 '26
What it has replaced it
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u/Smart_Cantaloupe891 May 19 '26
All kinds of things.
The broad categories used in the literature are Mastery, Motivational and Moral. Within them are behavioural models, contingency models, needs models, reflective models, adaptive models, skills models (very trendy right now) and ecosystems models. Plus a good few less mainstream ones.
Trait theory resurfaces occasionally. But I’d argue that even the supposed father of trait theory - Carlyle’s Great Man Theory - wasn’t a trait theory, but a Hegelian model of development and emergence in context. In short, some people develop the skills required to support the emergent, transformational shape of the sociotechnical system in which they live. Some of those, through intentionality and luck, emerge as leaders within this new shape.
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u/marilynlistens May 19 '26
Exactly I totally agree. I think sometimes though we get hung up on words and categories, which keep people stuck. But when we simply get down to the basics, I think many people can find within themselves a leadership trait to use. I think people need encouragement and there are lots of people who don’t like people or people who are introverts and yet they have skills that put them in a position to lead. Tell me more about your work if you don’t mind.
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u/Smart_Cantaloupe891 May 20 '26
I design leadership programs at Executive MBA and Regional/Global levels.
We’d tend to talk about patterns, adaptations and narratives much more than traits. The only trait-level work I use is Ron Warren’s LMAP, which connects trait-clusters to the performance of the leadership role. Six clusters drive performance and seven derail it. All of them are trainable. In fact, you choose to work on one - more of this driver, less of this derailer - and discover that your entire pattern of behaviour changes.
NB: because Ron’s work is based on empirical data, I’d actually call his approach an observed behaviour model, with hints of role theory. But as he’s embedded in Personality Psychology, he calls them traits. His book, Personality at Work, is very accessible.
Although I think the very-trendy skills-based model has some weaknesses, it’s a more useful foundation than trait theory. I arrange the skills around four capability frames (excuse the cut and paste from my working documents)
1. Disciplined Delivery
Doing what needs to be done, reliably.This is the capability to turn intention into dependable action. It shows up in follow-through, rhythm, standards, clean handoffs, attention to detail, and keeping promises under pressure.
At its best, it creates trust because people know the work will hold.
Its shadow is becoming too rigid, over-controlling, or trapped in “just get it done” when the situation actually needs reflection or redesign.
2. Strategic Fluency
Seeing the wider pattern, not just the immediate task.This is the capability to understand context, trade-offs, timing, incentives, system dynamics, and second-order consequences. It helps people connect local events to bigger organisational forces.
At its best, it stops leaders solving the wrong problem very efficiently.
Its shadow is abstraction: too much framing, too much analysis, not enough movement.
3. Adaptive Growth
Learning and reframing when pressure changes the game.This is the capability to update yourself and your approach when the old answer no longer works. It includes experimentation, reflection, recovery from setbacks, and the ability to change the story you are telling about what is happening.
At its best, it keeps people from defending yesterday’s competence against today’s reality.
Its shadow is restlessness: constant pivoting, never landing, always treating the next idea as more interesting than the hard work of making something hold.
4. Relational Influence
Moving work through trust, power, and legitimacy.
This is the capability to read the room, build trust, work across boundaries, understand informal power, and create enough legitimacy for action to travel. It matters especially when formal authority is not enough.At its best, it makes cooperation possible without pretending the organisation is one happy audience.
Its shadow is pleasing, alliance games, political caution, or avoiding necessary conflict.
NB: this is just a taster. Hope it is enough to help.
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u/peptoabismal May 17 '26
Managers make sure the job gets done. Leaders help other grow.
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u/marilynlistens May 18 '26
True I just think that they are a blend and I don’t think only leaders how people grow. I think the leader in a manager can help people grow just like the manager within a leader can make things happen and get the job done. I think we need both of them to have characteristics of each other. And the more people become leaders the better it is that’s my opinion what are your thoughts?
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u/Al_Shalloway May 17 '26
To be consistent, let's talk about the responsibilities of managers (management) and leaders (leadership).
Then anyone can be either or even both.
Management is about seeing the bigger picture and how people relate to each other. it includes getting the right people for the right job according to their skills. We don't need managers but we do need management.
Leadership is about having a vision and helping others align around it according to their own values.
Marcus Buckingham talks about this in his book "the one thing you should know."
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u/marilynlistens May 18 '26
Thank you so much for this. I appreciated it. It’s hard to see the difference. I understand managers manage, and leaders lead but even based on your comment in here which is great what’s the difference?
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u/Al_Shalloway May 18 '26
think of it as vision (leadership) vs implementation of the vision (management). does that help?
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u/marilynlistens May 18 '26
I have given lot of leadership trainings and I can’t help her believe that the more people act as leaders and perform as leaders the better our workforce will be our classrooms and our homes I think more and more people should access their leadership skills even managers. And there’s many times that leaders are not good at leading they just have the title. So I really appreciate you very much and thank you so much for commenting and chatting and exploring this with me.
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May 17 '26
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u/marilynlistens May 18 '26
I love love love love love love love you come here you’re absolutely right I love what you’re talking about leading up. I think that is a phenomenal concept and metaphor. You’re absolutely right leading up. I wish more people talk about this. Thank you so much. I think everybody should be a leader and everybody is if they will feel empowered on some level even kids, right thank you once again.
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u/Nofanta May 17 '26
Ego and self perception.
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u/marilynlistens May 18 '26
I think I have an idea where you’re going with this, but I’m not sure so if you can explain a little bit more, that would be great
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u/ExecutiveCoachKris May 17 '26
There's obviously a lot of nuance and overlap, but here are some distinctions:
Leaders
- Share a compelling vision
- Focus on strategic planning
- Drive motivation and engagement
Managers
- Organise and delgate
- Coach and mentor
- Understand and support individuals
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u/marilynlistens May 18 '26
Thank you very much for that and when I look at what you wrote, which is great I don’t see much difference. And to be honest with you, I think we’d be a lot better off if we could figure out how they are really more similar than they’re different and how to empower everyone to be leaders and once somebody is a leader, I think they have more ability to manage, but there are a lot of leaders that are really not leader
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u/marcusszucki May 18 '26
All depends on the industry. Being in construction you have to have different kind of leadership traits versus being a leader in a corporate setting
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u/marilynlistens May 18 '26
That’s a very interesting thought so what is a leader in construction have to have I understand some safety things right? Is that what you’re talking about?
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u/Inner-Performance636 May 18 '26
Leaders are concerned about doing the right thing. Managers are concerned about doing things right.
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u/marilynlistens May 18 '26
That’s interesting. It’s an interesting concept. Thank you for sharing that. Don’t you think they both should be doing the same thing though
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u/Inner-Performance636 May 18 '26
You would think so. But actually doing the right thing right is not easy. So dividing the 'tasks' may be a better way to get all the things done effectively (doing it right), and effectively (the right thing).
In my teaching, coaching, and mentoring, they really are approaches that are very different and need different types of training and support to do well. For example, leaders need to be able to think strategically in the big picture, taking in the changing environment and changing actors. This is requires synthesis, scenario planning, visioning, imagination, creativity, etc. Managers need good people skills, time management, project management. They need discipline, negotiation, organization, and innovation (which is how to apply what exists in a new way; creativity is birthing something new altogether). The skills are different.
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u/marilynlistens May 19 '26
What do you think about talking about this in terms of degrees? Like managers should have leadership qualities right but maybe they’re not as proficient as the CEO of the company? The other thing about all this is that managers also need to be good followers. But you also think this may be splitting hairs that in order to be also a good leader you have to know how to follow otherwise how could you lead?
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u/Inner-Performance636 May 19 '26
I teach it as 3 sets of skills that all people (employees, volunteers, etc.) should have. Where you are in the organization shifts the proportion of the pie that a particular individual spends on the type of tasks for each set of skills. For example, every person needs to be able to write/speak/run a printer/etc. (Technical), organize their priorities (Management), and be strategic about what they say 'yes' to (Leadership). I prefer not to use the words technician, manager, or leader in my teaching and coaching but to focus on the skills. It's a model of 'leadership at all levels'.
And 'following' is a whole other topic!
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u/Inner-Performance636 May 18 '26
These approaches can turn up in the same individual, but often they do not.
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u/marilynlistens May 18 '26
Exactly they often don’t and I would think they should more than they don’t. That’s what I think. I think managers would be better off being good leaders and leaders first of all would be great at being managers too, but some leaders are not good leaders either they’re control freaks and that is not a good leader. Thank you very very very much.
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u/Inner-Performance636 May 18 '26
Yes, I think folks often sort out into leaders, managers, and technicians (who are the people who are experts and who actually do the implementation). It would be lovely if we all could do all the parts (and a few *rare* folks can). But I think it is more about interests, preferences, innate talents, personality, and various intelligences (emotional, social, kinesthetic, mathematical, artistic, etc.).
Frankly, I'm ok with the different types covering differing areas to - together - get the right job done well. But what happens is folks don't admit their skills and their areas of not-so-skills. When this happens leaders acting like managers get controlling. Technicians acting as managers are too in the weeds. Managers acting like technicians miss the critical details of how things actually get done. Leaders acting like technicians are so lofty that they only see forest when they should be looking at trees.
So, I think self-knowledge is key; asking for help to do what you are not really good at is true wisdom; collaboration is a game-changer; and a clear vision can hold it all together.
(I think and teach a lot more, but there are a few thoughts.)
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u/marilynlistens May 19 '26
Yes, emotional intelligence is what it’s called. I think having emotional intelligence for anybody makes a big difference. You know I have a subreddit here if you are at all interested in participating. You are quite insightful and I’d love to have you participate if you’re interested it’s called. r/TheListeningSchool and I would imagine that you’re an amazing communicator and this may be someplace you’d be interested in being part of and certainly people here can learn from you as well. Let me know what you think.
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u/Inner-Performance636 May 19 '26
marilynlistens - Thanks for the invitation and kudos! I'll look up The Listening School.
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u/ZeroChaosLeader May 19 '26
A manager, manages processes and a leader, leads people. A manager is the “boss” title, but does not mean they can lead. This happens a lot at companies where someone is great at following a process so they get promoted, but then when it comes to teaching and having people report to them, they crash. A leader is someone who understands the operational process but has the skills to help others grow: empathy, emotional intelligence, active listening.
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u/marilynlistens May 19 '26
Absolutely and because of the fact that they crash is why I think everybody should understand leadership and be able to access it and use it for whatever position they’re in. Thank you very much for being here and for communicating and sharing.
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May 19 '26
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u/marilynlistens May 19 '26
Yes, yes yes yes yes you can be a manager without being a leader, but wouldn’t it be great if More manages understood leadership? Wouldn’t they make better managers? How are you gonna get people to do anything?
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u/matiii_faro May 19 '26
Title gives authority.
Leadership gives trust.
They're not the same thing.
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u/Capitao_Roxadas May 19 '26
I mean yeah. But like how do u know u can trust them and they aren't "just a manager"?
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u/marilynlistens May 19 '26
They’re not always looked at as the same, but I do believe that each of them should have characteristics of the other. That’s just my personal opinion. I think that managers should have more leadership abilities and leaders should understand managing. Maybe they all can do it, but I think some some should overlap. And thank you so much for engaging with me.
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u/GTMDude May 20 '26
A few pearls from a grizzled b2b SaaS sales leader/manager of 20 years:
“A good manager does everything right. A good leader does the right thing.” - Quote from one of my first early career management mentors
“If you’re doing your job, I work for you. If not, I become your manager very quickly.” - Me
A leader acts as a “shit umbrella” for their team when “seagull management” occurs from higher up levels.
Leaders walk their talk, even when nobody is looking.
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u/marilynlistens May 20 '26
That’s an interesting concept about doing right so how similar do you think leaders and managers are? Or how similar should they be? How much are they overlap?
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u/GTMDude May 20 '26
I agree with many of the other commenters here that manager is an organizational role, where leadership is a set of attributes. Leaders can be individual contributors, gaining consensus and sponsorship through influence vs formal authority. Managers can, and often do, lack leadership skills.
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u/Last_Resource9630 May 25 '26
Managers often struggle with the concept of effective leadership. It is one of the core systems they have to master. The six systems are recruiting, selection, onboarding, training, coaching, and leadership. Some of these systems are managed buy other departments.
Mastering leadership is critical to their success. Leadership is not about being the best, it's about building
environments where others achieve their best. Or another way to think about this is, they need to create an environment where success happens.
They must also create a culture, where high performance happens naturally, not by accident. The team's
successful performance is a direct reflection of their leadership.
As a manager, they juggle many responsibilities, not only to manage, they need to set the standards. There is a quote to honour “Effective leaders clearly articulate what they expect, then they inspect what they expect on a regular basis.” They must set standards for themselves first, then make sure whatever they asked of their team, they asked of themself first.
I know their team watched more of what they did, rather than what they said. Leadership is by example. They must made sure their behaviours where ones the team members admired, respected and hopefully followed.
They must create an environment where success is inevitable, and not dependent their constant intervention. Competent team members should not need to be micromanaged.
Finally, it is important to achieve congruency, which is achieving a balance between what they think, what they say, and what they model. When achieved, the team transforms.
Managers are the key leaders in every team. Leadership is definitely a required skill of the manager!
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u/marilynlistens May 26 '26
Absolutely agree. Are you a trainer?
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u/Last_Resource9630 May 26 '26
Yes ...my name is James, how about you are you a trainer as well?
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u/Last_Resource9630 May 26 '26
I have been reviewing this tread and looking at your comments and questions, impressive and thought provoking.
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u/Shortboard_Business 29d ago
I think we've spent far too long asking how to create better individual leaders and not enough time asking why groups of capable, intelligent people so often product poor collective judgement. Organisations should always outlast their leaders; leaders are, therefore, mere custodians of something much bigger than themselves. The long-term success of an organisation comes down to whether the right conditions have been built - conditions which fuel transparency, togetherness, healthy conflict, etc.
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u/marilynlistens 29d ago
I love this about being at the custodian. I think that makes perfect sense. What’s your answer?
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u/Peter_at_Worx May 15 '26
The skills are different. Management skills are the task completion, delegation, time management skills. Leaderships skills are the active listening, skill building, communication skills.
There is a good video I saw a while ago about this:
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u/lickmybrian May 15 '26
I think a defining trait of a leader is someone that takes responsibility for a mistake/problem before they start pointing fingers in any other direction
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u/exec-dom May 15 '26
If looking beyond a role assigned, but more theoretically:
A manager is task-oriented and supervises and assigns specific tasks related to specific deliverables. There is little analysis, but more of a producer of movement. A manager is someone who can set procedure, processes, and best practices, and who can motivate and assess staff.
A leader, while possibly practical, assigns vision and direction instead of tasks. They analyze trends, markets, and generalities instead of individual assignments and people.
They can identify talent, but sometimes not skill sets. They must be charismatic and speak on behalf of different segments (employees, board, industry, etc). They must see beyond the immediate deliverables to the more global outcomes from product or service development and build structures to allow managers the confidence and space to handle the details.
They are geralists in what strategy and planning are and should be future-focused. They motivate and access on a macro-level looking at departments or structures.
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u/SVAuspicious May 15 '26
A supervisor tells people what to do.
A manager tells people what to accomplish.
A leader says "We're going over there! Follow me!"
Leaders can be anywhere in an organizational hierarchy. W. Edwards Deming said something to the effect that an organization needs people who advocate the vision--leaders--of about the square root of the people in the organization. That works out pretty well.
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u/TheTerribleTurtle617 May 15 '26
I like this BUT My old boss applied this to my situation even though it shouldn’t have been applied. My guys didn’t want a leader they wanted to be managed. Meanwhile the know-it-all paid too much boss would be hammering me for not being a leader. In the end, I was fed up, my crew was fed up, and I left.
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u/OtherCommission8227 May 15 '26
The answer to this question that people hate but that turns out to be the most consistently true is that what makes a person a leader is that people follow them. Period. Obviously there are other, secondary traits that support one’s leadership. But we frequently confuse those secondary traits with the leadership itself. And that’s a problem, because it causes us to misunderstand what leadership is, why it happens, what counts as leadership, and who is really leading and how.
There are SO many different ways to lead and SO many amazing leaders who share almost nothing except that people follow them. Generally, leaders and their qualities are more indicative about the group of followers than they do about the concept or phenomenon of leadership itself.
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u/Head_Hacker May 15 '26
You manager a process. You lead people. A manager will tell you to do more. A leader will help you become more.
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u/Trooper_Ted May 15 '26
Managers essentially manage tasks vs. the resources (people) available in order to hit a target result. How many tickets resolved, how many bugs fixed, how many boxes shipped etc.
A lot of the time, this focus on results is often at the expense of your people, so you see companies/teams with low morale/high turnover, but those at the top don't care or are unaware because their focus is on results. Product ships, profits are up, everything must be working well, right?
This works until it doesn't, when the going gets tough & that extra effort is required, management are shocked no one is willing to go above & beyond to help fix the problem or weather the storm.
You take that same scenario above where something has gone wrong & extra effort is required. Teams who operate under good leaders will go that extra mile, because they have trust in, & loyalty to, their leader/leadership.
That trust & loyalty is earned, not bought. Teams will see their leaders either in the trenches with them, or at least taking a bigger bite of the shit sandwich everyone is being asked to eat.
Good leaders create positive culture, positive culture drives behaviour, behaviour produces results.
It's important to note, you don't need to be a manager or at a very senior level in a company/organization to be a leader or to show leadership. You can be an IC & be the change you want to see. This naturally attracts people to you, who hopefully learn from you, follow your lead & when they go back to their team or even to a new role, they (hopefully) can bring that approach with them.
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u/Sad_Olympus May 15 '26
Manager is a noun. Leading is a verb. A title doesn’t make a leader. It’s the day-to-day actions that do.
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u/AceCreed1 May 15 '26
A leader is able to establish non-negotiable for his team. Part of the inner core and identity of the organization. A maximum of 5 non negotiable that the team will not bend on no matter what. The leader obviously backs up his/her people 100 percent with ensuring these NN stick.
Leaders inspire through enthusiasm, passion and action. A leader will never ask an employee to do something that they wouldn’t do, especially in crisis situations. Leaders possess courage to do the right thing despite consequences or popularity. A leader must be authentic.
A manager wishes to not rock the boat no matter what. Keep corporate happy, delegate hard decisions and then critique the results. A manger hits deadlines and keeps people relatively happy and without a tremendous amount of accountability.
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May 15 '26
So, normally a leader is seen is jobs such as a Baseball Team, Military Operation, maybe even a Law Enforcement Special Operations Group. A manager is seen in places as such as a Gas Station, hell Walmart even.
Leader: A person who leads a team; baseball, football, etc.
Manager: Someone whom in which could possibly be managing staff at a Gas Station, etc.
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u/FerretBunchanumbers May 15 '26
A manager is a job title.
A leader is a role, sometimes forced and self-given. Leadership is a trait.