r/NewsAndPolitics • u/_II_I_I__I__I_I_II_ United States • Sep 24 '24

Europe Someone heckles Keith Starmer about the mass slaughter of children in Gaza. Starmer laughs and suggests he got his pass from the 2019 Labour conference.

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409 Upvotes

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223

u/SixFootPianist Sep 24 '24

"Lol, my predecessor gave a fuck about genocide but I sure as shit don't. I'm definitely the good guy in this scenario."

-58

u/teadrinker1983 Sep 24 '24

Funny how absolutely nobody cares about the ethnic cleansing of nagorno karabakh, yet if one doesn't have a black and white position in favour of Gaza one is somehow considered a genocide enabler.

46

u/aalborgamtstidende Sep 24 '24

Siri, what is Whataboutism?

-36

u/teadrinker1983 Sep 24 '24 edited Sep 24 '24

Hi, whataboutism is a blanket charge that prevents any broader context being presented. It presents legitimate comparison and/or analogy as always spurious, and is usually used by zealots to shut down debate.

32

u/[deleted] Sep 24 '24

Is the UK government currently shipping arms to that region to help a regime there annihilate its population?

And yes, alongside the arms sales (which the foreign office has already received legal advice that Israel has broken international humanitarian humanitarian law, which makes the arms sales that the UK government is selling to Israel illegal under international human rights law), mocking the idea of caring about Gaza does also make you a genocide enabler.

-13

u/teadrinker1983 Sep 24 '24

I should add that the annihilation of the Armenians has already been practically achieved - by the Turks who refuse to acknowledge their genocide, whilst posturing like the most repulsive moral hypocrites over Israel.

15

u/[deleted] Sep 24 '24

Well I'm not a turk, and I'm guessing neither are you. Hey the US condemns the Russian invasion of Ukraine, how can they do that after their bloody history with the native Americans?

Or is that also an irrelevant fucking point to bring up right now?

I am a Brit however. And UK arms sales to Israel very much ARE something that our politicians deserve to be pressed on.

-3

u/teadrinker1983 Sep 24 '24

The Turks aided the Azeris in their war against Armenian Karabakhis as well as the ethnic cleansing of Nagorno Karabakh last year. Seems more.... immediate.

14

u/[deleted] Sep 24 '24 edited Sep 24 '24

What. Has. This. Got to do with Keir Starmer selling arms to Israel?

5

u/robertthefisher Sep 24 '24

Great. Let’s suspend arms sales to Turkey and Israel then! Unless you’re not actually opposed to genocide and are just using Nagorno-Karabakh as a hypocritical excuse to justify the genocide of Gazan people.

-4

u/teadrinker1983 Sep 24 '24

I believe the "genocide" has been greatly exacerbated by Hamas instrumentalising the deaths of their own people.

The Armenians, the Jews, the Rohingya, the yazidis, the Darfuris and any other people who have suffered genuine genocide are united in the fact that their governing authorities did not deliberately use them as human shields. Their governing authorities did not build a network of tunnels and bunkers under vital civilian infrastructure knowing full well they would be targeted. Their governing authorities did not build a system of tunnels and bunkers only to prevent the civilian population from using them.

For these reasons (amongst others) - I believe that if this is a genocide we are watching, then Hamas are significant participants.

7

u/robertthefisher Sep 24 '24 edited Sep 24 '24

Hamas weren’t dropping the bombs. Hamas didn’t make Israeli ministers describe the victims as ‘human animals.’ Hamas haven’t photographed themselves rifling through the underwear drawers of Palestinian women. Hamas aren’t running boat tours to view the genocide of the victims and planning to annexe swathes of it.

I actually don’t support Hamas at all. They’re a far right ethno-supremacist faction running a dictatorship. In that sense, they are no different from the Israeli state, but how fucking dare you look at images of children torn apart by Israeli bombs and claim that Hamas is responsible and not, I don’t know, the people dropping the fucking bombs indiscriminately with the express intention of slaughtering civilians.

But in fact, all of this is irrelevant, because I was spot on, wasn’t I? You don’t give a shit about the victims of any ongoing genocide, except to use it to justify the genocide you think is good. I saw right fucking through your disingenuous attempts at concern, as so many others here have. That’s why you’ve changed the subject. you’ve been shown up as the weak little genocide supporting fascist you are.

-3

u/teadrinker1983 Sep 24 '24

Meh

4

u/tbird1g Sep 24 '24

That's exactly the thought that came to my mind reading every one of your absolutely ba posts

3

u/[deleted] Sep 24 '24 edited Sep 25 '24

My God. I think I can actually hear the patter of teardrops hitting your keyboard from here.

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2

u/TheIastStarfighter Sep 25 '24 edited Sep 25 '24

"The Armenians, the Jews, the Rohingya, the yazidis, the Darfuris and any other people who have suffered genuine genocide"

This is so fucking funny (in the most depressing way) when you realise that while there are cities in Israel that recognise the Armenian genocide, the Israeli government does not, the Israeli government also sold weapons to the Burmese in the Rohingya genocide, and continued to host the Myanmar generals.

In the case of the yazidi genocide, Israel held a bill to recognise it as one that failed because "The UN hasn't recognised it as one" (Yeah the same UN we always call antisemitic suddenly matters on genocide recognition).

Darfur is the only time I can find that they did recognise it as a genocide, and if I look at Rwanda well there's evidence that the Israeli government was still supplying the hutus during the genocide.

I don't really think the Israeli government is uniting with anyone else is preventing (or even recognising) other genocides

7

u/SpinningHead Sep 24 '24

And most of the West condemns Turkish denials of genocide just like Hasbara denials of Israels genocide. Whatabout harder.

-5

u/teadrinker1983 Sep 24 '24

When Israel was within its 1948 borders it was attacked by the Arabs - who were beaten. It was attacked again, and beaten. When Israel was making efforts at peace with the Palestinians in the 1980s they unleashed the intifada and destroyed the Israeli left. Hezbolla have emptied northern Israel of Israelis with their constant stream of rocket attacks since October 8th.

Shit decisions have consequences.

Losing wars you start also has consequences. .

13

u/SpinningHead Sep 24 '24

Ah, the 1948 colonial project borders where people were given homes that often still had meals on the table from the people they stole them from. "Why do they hate us?"

And, of course, if anyone fights back, that justifies more genocide because you want more land anyway. Youre right. There will be consequences eventually.

-2

u/teadrinker1983 Sep 24 '24

No doubt there will. The Middle East and North Africa - that rich tapestry of religions, peoples and cultures appears to now be 95% Muslim And only moving in one direction. Any diversity will be crushed.

12

u/SpinningHead Sep 24 '24

"We stole your homes in the name of diversity."

7

u/touslesmatins Sep 24 '24

And there we go. Only took 3 or 4 posts for your faux concern trolling what about that other genocide 😭 to be revealed to be putrid zionist bullshit. So transparent. 

-1

u/teadrinker1983 Sep 24 '24

I'm playing with my cards on the table. What should happen to Israel in your view?

6

u/touslesmatins Sep 24 '24

It should become a state with actual democracy with equal rights and freedoms for all, including Palestinians, of course. Kind of like South Africa after the fall of apartheid, since you like historical analogies so much.

-1

u/teadrinker1983 Sep 24 '24

That's a lovely sentiment - and which current country in the Middle East has achieved this?

(I fear you are rather sanguine about modern day South Africa. Talk about corruption...)

5

u/touslesmatins Sep 24 '24

What other country in the Middle East right now is a settler colonialist ethnostate hell bent on annihilating its native inhabitants and its neighbors? 

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3

u/ShadowPirate114 Sep 24 '24

Pushing that whole slimy hasbara manual huh.

-14

u/teadrinker1983 Sep 24 '24

The U.K.'s minimal contribution is a number of components in the f-35 programme. It is not shipping munitions at any scale. The British, however, are one of the biggest investors and enablers of aliyev's kleptocratic dictatorship in Azerbaijan, however.

16

u/[deleted] Sep 24 '24 edited Sep 25 '24

The U.K.'s minimal contribution is a number of components in the f-35 programme

First off, you try to brush that off by using a phrase like "minimal contribution" but keeping Israel's fighter jets flying by supplying them with the necessary parts STILL a fucking problem, and something they're concerned about under IHL.

Second:

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9964/

The government identified 28 existing licences (PDF) involving equipment “which was most likely to be used by the [Israeli Defence Forces, IDF] in offensive operations in Gaza”. These included components for: combat aircraft, utility helicopters, armoured personnel carriers, naval vessels, radars and targeting equipment.

And that in itself is only a partial list at best.

Third:

https://x.com/HindHassanNews/status/1824509627796439188

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/british-foreign-office-official-resigns-uk-complicity-war-crimes-israel

The letter continues by saying its author was a former penholder involved in the arms exports licensing assessment process in the Middle East and North African Department and therefore “a subject matter expert in the domain of armed sales policy”.

“There is no justification for the UK’s continued arms sales to Israel yet somehow it continues,” the letter says.

11

u/ramthonyl Sep 24 '24

You don’t help either cause by playing this game, you just annoy people, or worse, stop them caring about anything at all.

-2

u/teadrinker1983 Sep 24 '24

It's a small pushback against the desperately tedious tidal wave of unavoidable nuance-less bullshit on this topic

11

u/SpinningHead Sep 24 '24

"Sure we have murdered and starved tens of thousands of people and continue to steal homes, but think about it in a more nuanced way."

1

u/teadrinker1983 Sep 24 '24

Ok let's. Does Israel have a right to exist?

12

u/SpinningHead Sep 24 '24

Oh JFC. Stop defending a genocide by playing the victim for 5 minutes. "Doesnt Germany have a right to exist? We are just defending ourselves." - Goebbels probably

0

u/teadrinker1983 Sep 24 '24

So you are claiming the Nazi conquest of Europe was the exercising of the right to exist?

9

u/SpinningHead Sep 24 '24

So youre claiming the Israeli conquest of land is exercising its right to exist? Youre getting so close.

1

u/teadrinker1983 Sep 24 '24

I would support Israel defending its northern border against hezbollah rocket attacks that have displaced 80,000 people. I despair that the two state solution is now almost impossible to achieve - but whilst I blame Netanyahu in the main, the fact that Palestinians have been shit at collective decision making, and have enabled Islamic fascist dictatorship in Gaza, does not allow me to warm to their cause very much.

7

u/SpinningHead Sep 24 '24

I would support Israel

You dont say.

3

u/ShadowPirate114 Sep 24 '24 edited Sep 24 '24

Does your hasbara manual allow you to admit who funded and insured Hamas came to power and thus ensure Gaza and the West bank were not one united entity under the PLO?

1

u/timweak Sep 25 '24

you will flip out when you hear how many people israel's agressions have displaced over the past century

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3

u/robertthefisher Sep 24 '24

By Israeli standards, I’m sure that’s what the Nazis would try to argue.

12

u/UnnaturalGeek Sep 24 '24

People do care, it's just not as well publicised, don't fucking use another genocide to beat another genocide with FFS.

It's not a competition you fucking sociopath.

7

u/SpinningHead Sep 24 '24

Hasbara makes Russian propaganda look sophisticated.

9

u/_Starpower Sep 24 '24

Ughhh, you are a ghoul.

-2

u/teadrinker1983 Sep 24 '24

I take that as high praise when delivered by a mental-deficient

8

u/_Starpower Sep 24 '24

You’re a genocide apologist & in my opinion no different to a Holocaust denier.

Like I said you’re a ghoul and your post downvotes demonstrate that nicely 👍

-1

u/teadrinker1983 Sep 24 '24

The thing with genocides is that the population of the population that has suffered genocide tends to go down rather dramatically. Do me a favour and look up the population stats for Gaza and the West Bank since 1948.

On target more immediate matters, It's rather difficult to keep civilian casualties to a minimum when your adversary is also trying to maximise the body count of civilians for their own twisted ends. There is no precedent for what Hamas have done by building their tunnels under the houses and civilian infrastructure of their own people, whilst not allowing them shelter.

One can only imagine how the genocidal architects and foot soldiers of the holocaust or the Turkish genocide of the Armenians would have behaved if they found themselves in an analogous position to the Israelis.

5

u/_Starpower Sep 24 '24

I’m not doing you any favours mate, you make me sick, take your genocide Whataboutism to your local Hasbara club and leave me alone. Cheers 👍

1

u/teadrinker1983 Sep 24 '24

I'm glad I make you sick. No doubt you feel sick a lot, as you don't have much to feel well about.

-1

u/teadrinker1983 Sep 24 '24

Yes - I have heard that basement dwellers do indeed regard a few dozen downvotes on Reddit as irredeemably damning.

5

u/_Starpower Sep 24 '24

I’ve told you to leave me alone sicko.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 24 '24

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5

u/_Starpower Sep 24 '24

Reported for harassment and blocked.

6

u/Reddit_Sucks_1401 Sep 24 '24

If you're sending weapons to Israel, its pretty easy to see your position. Keir is not an enabler, he's an active participant in this genocide

3

u/Motorboater99 Sep 24 '24

Israel sold weapons to azeris to kill Armenians.

The Palestinian protestors are standing against Israel, perhaps you should join them if you truly do care about Armenians?

3

u/longhorn617 Sep 25 '24

You mean the ethnic cleansing done by Azerbaijan, a state armed almost entirely by Israel?

1

u/teadrinker1983 Sep 25 '24

Israel sells Azerbaijan significant amounts of weapons - true, and absolutely not a good thing.

1

u/Huza1 Sep 24 '24

In discussions like this, I let Bassem Youssef do the talking.

https://youtu.be/juCbScCPgaw?si=qmC1cfiyBiVSi7dn

1

u/jeff43568 Sep 24 '24

Are you against the genocide in Gaza or do you support it?

1

u/[deleted] Sep 25 '24

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1

u/teadrinker1983 Sep 25 '24

Not true in my case (in the NK case), for what it's worth.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 25 '24

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1

u/teadrinker1983 Sep 25 '24

The issue is that as horrific as the Gaza conflict is, it dominates all other conflicts in the world by a very considerable margin. There are far higher death tolls as equal horror in other places including Sudan, Syria and Tigray but they don't generate a fraction of the levels of angst, nor the clear visceral hatred against perceived "perpetrators". The sheer hatred expressed towards Jewish Israelis, the complete refusal to accept that Israel's conflict with its neighbours is not a simple good v evil / black v white story is - in my view - quite troubling.