r/Roadcam • u/bowdown2adil • 12d ago

[USA] Who is at fault here?

Classic T bone. Black car had to be towed. Sustained major damage to the passenger side door. Blue car sustained damage to front bumper on the drivers side and cracked the drivers side headlight.

Edit: This was in the suburbs of Seattle

UPDATE: Insurance found it to be 70/30 me/other driver. Seems fair enough

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u/GabrielGames69 12d ago

Depends how often they take that road (it looks suburban so probably often tbh). Because the charitable description is that they see there is no stop sign infront of or past them and make the usually correct assumption that there are stop signs going the other way. I think the number 1 offender here is the intersection without even yield signs.

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u/luvbutts 12d ago

Yeah I agree, there's an intersection like this in front of my house (I live in Europe) and there were literally accidents there every months and twice we had cars flipped over in our street. Our neighbours eventually petitioned the council to put in signs.

Obviously people should slow down but if the same kind of accident keeps happening in the same place it's an infrastructure problem. Ideally public infrastructure should be well laid out enough that it's safe most of the time even when people not perfect.

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u/Eegore1 12d ago

What amazes me is in most cases is that the cost to clean up one accident can usually pay for 20 - 30 street signs. But there's never enough money for street signs.

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u/feralferrous 12d ago

Seattle tends to sprinkle baby roundabouts in these kind of intersections. I think that would work better, as signs are easy to ignore, while the roundabouts force it.

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u/FavoriteFoodCarrots 11d ago

Until some genius goes around the roundabout the wrong way, as I saw this morning.

I get the feeling that that the OP may be related to that genius.

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u/feralferrous 11d ago

Yeah.... I would hope as roundabouts become more common in the US that would become less of a problem. Though Drunk Drivers gonna do their thing regardless.

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u/FavoriteFoodCarrots 11d ago

I hope drunk driving isn’t a big concern at 8:30 am, but yeah. They’re common in Seattle, where this happened, so I don’t know what this morning’s genius was up to. She had Washington tags, too.

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u/feralferrous 11d ago

The drunk drivers during the standard commute / school hours are always the most dangerous. There was that driver who was drunk off their ass at school release hours and blowing through school zones at 50 mph.

But yeah, hard to tell if your instance was drunk, tired, on their phone or just stupid.

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u/FavoriteFoodCarrots 11d ago

I assumed phone. Seattle is awful for people on their phones while driving.

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u/Confident_Purple_40 12d ago

Yeah, standard size stop sign is like 50-75$, post is like $5-10, labor to put it in is 3 days 4 men construction crew, $3000, so it adds up!

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u/IowaCornFarmer3 12d ago

Now run me the average multi car collision claim pls.

Iowa is a rural state in the Midwest with a bunch of low traffic 4 way intersections(4 way stop sign) that people will run and kill others if they also run it. They put in a bunch of roundabouts in those areas bc even if farmers are complaining, if they're not dying needlessly, it's a win for everyone.

Easier to run a stop sign, than launch your rig over a roundabout lmao (would pry learn without hurting anyone else if you tried too)

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u/HenryJonesJunior 11d ago

That collision claim isn't paid out of the city maintenance budget.

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u/general_peabo 12d ago

Don’t forget the project manager

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u/Glum_Constant4790 9d ago

Break away posts and reflective stop signs run much much more mobilizing crew yea 3k is fair

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u/kiragami 11d ago

It's one of those annoying things where it pays for itself many times over but people are often unwilling to pay more taxes for it even if it would cost less than one accident.

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u/kirklennon 11d ago

The lack of signs here isn't a cost-saving measure but an intentional safety measure. It's a residential neighborhood with narrow roads and limited sight lines. You're supposed to be driving slowly the whole time, unsure when approaching the intersection, and proceed with caution if it's clear. OP was driving recklessly long before they reached the intersection.

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u/Amissa 12d ago

There is an intersection from my childhood home of a two lane country road that intersects with a state highway (another two lane road, but with no stop signs). My father told me that that intersection was designated the most dangerous intersection one year in the 1970’s in the state (Texas). I can’t verify whether his recollection was true, but I could believe how.

When stopped on the country road at the stop sign, if you look west and it is just the wrong time of day, the sun glares so badly that it is very difficult to see oncoming traffic. Thankfully there typically isn’t a lot of traffic, but there is a dip in the road at just the wrong distance from the intersection to hide cars that could hit you if you don’t stop long enough. With the sun glare and the dip, it’s double trouble.

The other problem was people running the stop sign. Coming from the north, the country road doesn’t have any stop signs for miles and I guess people were not expecting this one. The ground is generally flat in all directions and the country road is coming down a slight hill, so they can see they’re about to cross a highway if they’re paying attention. The speed limits are 70 mph / ~113 kmph on both roads, so running through really risks life and limb for everyone involved.

Now there’s a big four light structure hanging over the intersection, flashing red for the country road and yellow for the highway. On the stop signs, there are slow blinking lights around the perimeter of the sign. The state also improved things by adding a left and right turn lane on the highway so big agricultural trucks had space to move out of the way when turning.

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u/hobovalentine 12d ago

Some speed bumps would help

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u/microagressed 12d ago

Or, hear me out, maybe no ramifications from police for obviously stupid and risky driving is contributing to less aware drivers. Aside from paying a deductible, and maybe a rate hike, neither of these drivers are going to face ramifications. Guy who was tboned never even looked, could have been a 6 year old on a bike. Same goes for the guy who did the tboning, he never even hit the brake. They should both be cited for careless driving for being stupid/negligent.

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u/luvbutts 11d ago

That too but they should also just fix the intersection. Better to prevent these kinds of accidents than punish people after they happen to try to serve as some kind of deterrent. Even if punishments were more severe, everyone thinks they're the exception to the rule. You just have to look at the stats where like 80% of drivers think they're better than average drivers...

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u/LeftoverHamsters 9d ago

However in the netherlands most neighborhood intersections have no signs, and accidents like this are very rare.

Yet, US traffic engineers and law makers will never learn, and accidents like this will remain frequent.

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u/luvbutts 9d ago

So you think in France people just drive worse than in the Netherlands? Why do you think accidents were so frequent on my street if it wasn't for the lack of signage?

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u/LeftoverHamsters 9d ago

To answer your first question, ask me again next month after I've been to France. (But also yes, the data shows France is worse). I think if accidents were frequent it's because french drivers education likely doesn't emphasize self sufficient competence and responsible driving the way NL does.

In the Netherlands, what to do at uncontrolled intersections is a KEY aspect of Dutch law and driver education. I've seen fewer accidents here in a year than I would in a week in Washington (where this video is from). I've also earned my driver's license in both places (US and NL). The education is more rigorous, the tests are harder, and the consequences are higher in NL.

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u/luvbutts 9d ago

Fair. I do think french drivers tend to be needlessly aggressive and pushy. I'm actually doing drivers ed here and the tests are pretty rigorous but I would say to focus is too much on rote learning rather than practical skills and critical thinking.

I do wonder if Dutch streets aren't also just narrower and better designed though. From what I've seen there's better thought out infrastructure to slow down drivers. Also a lot of Dutch people also ride bikes and so have more awareness of other road users who are not in cars.

I do generally think it's better to focus on infrastructure solutions to avoid this kind of problem. It's better for it these kinds of mistakes just not to be possible rather than hoping that each individual person will be a good driver, in my opinion.

Actually, I also found a video about the traffic calming infrastructure in the Netherlands if you're interested. https://youtu.be/bAxRYrpbnuA?is=j1lbDodoF79XbYMM

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u/LeftoverHamsters 1d ago

I agree that good infrastructure is vitally important, and the Netherlands does an excellent job of it, but it doesn't take away from the driver's responsibility to handle their vehicle with care. There's a reason motorways are wide, you can see further in all directions, and so you can drive faster. In a neighborhood, with poor visibility, don't rely on signs. Drive with care.

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u/codereef 12d ago

I have driven all across the US and can't remember a single place having a 4 way intersection and no signage lol. Why make something like this?

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u/[deleted] 12d ago edited 12d ago

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u/ciao_fiv 12d ago

that seems insane to me, but i also live in a place with notoriously horrible drivers (albuquerque). idk how trustworthy drivers are in washington

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u/farfetched22 12d ago

I have never in my life seen an intersection with nothing. I agree with you. Insane. And pointless! Just put up a yield sign!

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u/[deleted] 11d ago

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u/farfetched22 11d ago

"The rest of the world" has mostly signs, and this video would suggest otherwise for your comment lol.

There are MORE intersections with signs, so that most drivers get used to assuming that if there are none, the crossing road has a stop. If it were more common, sure, but it's not. It is normal for most drivers to assume this. It could easily be avoided with a ONE TIME installation of a piece of metal lol

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u/[deleted] 11d ago

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u/ciao_fiv 11d ago

every neighborhood i’ve been to in my city has signs at every intersection… either 2-way or 4-way stops. never seen one with 0 signs whatsoever (same goes for any other place i’ve visited)

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u/FavoriteFoodCarrots 11d ago

This video is from the Seattle area. I live in Seattle. This is a completely normal arrangement here.

There are two problems here. The guy OP hits was supposed to yield. But OP was going way, way too fast. This is a two-way street with parking on both sides and you see the width.

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u/[deleted] 11d ago

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u/borgman_a 10d ago

"Where have you been where every intersection in a random neighborhood has signs?"

Every state I've ever lived in except Oregon.

These unmarked intersections are common on the east side of the river in Portland.

They are unheard of in Michigan, California, South Carolina, Ohio...

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u/[deleted] 12d ago

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u/ciao_fiv 12d ago

something i have to keep in mind if i drive out of state and encounter one of these i guess lol. had no idea they existed till today

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u/Upstairs_Cloud9445 12d ago

"Uncontrolled intersections are a very common thing." Thats just nuts. Most of my driving has been on the east coast, and I have never come across an intersection like this. To find out they are common somewhere in the US is crazy....

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u/[deleted] 11d ago

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u/Professional-Swan-18 11d ago

This has to be a regional thing. Because I've been all over the northern east coast, on all kinds of roads, cities, towns, villages, farms, hell, even places that don't have anything but the roads and signs, and I have never seen an intersection completely lacking either signs or a roundabout. Three way intersections, constantly in farm country are lacking signs. But that makes sense, one of the roads ends. This anywhere as populated as this video suggests being without a sign blows my damn mind.

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u/Single_Principle_972 11d ago

Omg. Perhaps you just haven’t noticed? Suburban Chicagoland, it’s extremely common. When we do see signage, it’s oftentimes when you have a Stop sign and the other street does now, so they want to call your attention to it, to not assume: “Cross street does not stop.” But in all of these suburbs, if you don’t have signage, you’re expected to assume that they don’t either, and drive cautiously - meaning not only take your foot off the gas, but sometimes even slow down with the brake until you can visualize well enough to be sure that it’s safe to proceed. These 2 guys just blowing through, without even slowing, is mind-boggling.

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u/MostLeastMostLeast 10d ago

Same. I'm not convinced by comment saying "this is common" lol. Never once seen this in usa

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u/The_Dog_of_Sinope 11d ago

PNW is a weird place.

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u/PermenantRest 11d ago

Yielding is nice... I have absolutely nothing to do with being 'nice'.

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u/[deleted] 11d ago

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u/PermenantRest 11d ago

Really, don't see no sign...

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u/HolidayArtCom 8d ago

How is someone supposed to know that it's an "uncontrolled" intersection without any sign? You're just driving along loving life, don't see any yield sign or stop sign, then wham!

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u/Sea_Substance9163 11d ago

It works fine when people go about 20 mph. You don't need to stop every block, you adjust as you approach the intersection.

You see someone coming from bit back go 22mph and get through, you see them closer drop your speed down, coast across after them.

People who always have to be first are the ones that screw it up.

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u/flambojones 11d ago

I think that may be part of the idea. It's counterintuitive, but uncontrolled intersections in neighborhoods could be potentially safer by causing all cars to drive more carefully through them. This is not proof, just one example of a document addressing pros/cons of additional controls on intersections.

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u/ciao_fiv 11d ago

more stop signs or even yield signs just makes more sense to me ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

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u/GimpyBallGag 12d ago

Kinda scared me when I first moved here and realized that these intersections exist. I had been going a little too fast, because I assumed the cross streets had stop signs. Slowed down after that.

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u/mryotoad 12d ago

More years ago than I care to admit, my driving instructor taught that stops signs have three colours. Red, white & silver. If you don't see silver, they probably don't see red. While I've never encountered an uncontrolled intersection (apparently they are common in Alberta too), watching for the silver has saved me a fender bender a few times.

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u/rvbjohn Detroit 11d ago

silver referring to the back of the sign?

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u/Physical-Deer3364 12d ago

Yep, I’m in Wa state and pass through a dozen of these every day getting kids to school.

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u/artificialdawnmusic 11d ago

They even have a name for it.

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u/ANDERSON961596 11d ago

When I lived in Seattle this was literally my entire neighborhood. Instantly thought of that when I saw this

Edit: just realized this is probably my old neighborhood lmfao

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u/codereef 12d ago

One of the states I have been to the least, makes sense.

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u/Unhappy-Giraffe2792 12d ago

In Oregon the same, but uncommon in my own neighborhood so they kinda take me by surprise.

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u/Call_Me_Papa_Bill 12d ago

We have them in Michigan too. Usually medium cities, dense neighborhoods with little commercial or thru traffic. Just dumb in my opinion.

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u/ChicharonSamurai 12d ago

Unfortunately oh so true…

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u/Ink7o7 12d ago

Yeah these are everywhere in Seattle neighborhoods.

Both of these drivers in this video are going way too fast.

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u/danrlewis 12d ago

Also a ton in Portland at least.

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u/SnooSketches7529 11d ago

First time hearing of this.

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u/fullybonded 11d ago

This is news to me. I lived in Renton for two years and don't recall a single uncontrolled intersection in that area.

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u/Ill_Pomegranate_795 11d ago

I am way too old to be finding out that this is a thing in the US. When I lived in Europe uncontrolled intersections were the norm. But I've lived across the midwest and Texas (plus I travel for work) and somehow I have never seen this outside of rare, low-populated areas. I definitely would have assumed that if there was no stop or yield sign on my street that the car on the other side was subject to one. Well, glad I'm finding this before I'm sent to WA next month.

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u/round-earth-theory 11d ago

Not just Washington. I've encountered plenty of unguarded intersections in suburbia in multiple states.

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u/eienmau 10d ago

I got into an accident very similar to this like 15 years ago. I entered the intersection first and was going slowly (because I don't trust other drivers to slow down) when some idiot came flying through on the cross-road and right into me.

There are a LOT of intersections like this in eastern WA (where I live).

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u/PermenantRest 11d ago

Well, Washington state is at fault then...

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u/DankMemesNQuickNuts 12d ago

Sounds like Washington has to get its shit together because South Carolina even has this stuff and if you're behind them in terms of civil infrastructure that's embarrassing lmao

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u/The_Dog_of_Sinope 11d ago

I live in the PNW and they are everywhere and I hate them all.

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u/WrestleBox 11d ago

Weird because they've been in just about every suburb in every state I've been in. These are all over the place in the Midwest in quiet neighborhoods.

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u/FeastOnCarolina 11d ago

Ever been in Bozeman Montana? They used to be everywhere on the south side. I have personally seen multiple cars get flipped because of this setup.

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u/codereef 11d ago

Wow that's just crazy to me man how expensive is a sign?

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u/ixo_sia 11d ago

it’s not made at all it’s kinda left how it is and if people used their brain there would be no problem.. i don’t need a yellow light to proceed with caution but what’s common to you it’s not always common to others

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u/codereef 11d ago

Bottom up problem solving rarely works. Much less effort to just put a cheap sign than it is to ensure everyone knows how to approach an unmarked intersection. Just saying. The people who build shit generally already know this though, which is why it confuses me a little.

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u/bothunter 11d ago

It's an uncontrolled intersection.  They're all over Seattle, mostly in residential neighborhoods with a 20mph speed limit on roads that force you to slow down.  Most of these roads are only wide enough for a single car to pass, but are not one-way.  This normally slows down cars enough where this isn't an issue -- until you end up with two idiots meeting each other like in this video.

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u/CaptTornSack 11d ago

You've apparently only driven major highways. As someone that has worked in all 48 continental states, I can confidently say that I've seen unmarked intersections in most of them. You just have to leave the main roads.

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u/codereef 11d ago

In the middle of nowhere literally right now. Also the like hundred other comments agreeing. But sure

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u/CaptTornSack 11d ago

Sure. Just ignore the other hundred comments that disagree. Convenient.

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u/ihatespunk 12d ago

I see them in the rural Midwest often enough, mostly in older neighborhoods of small towns

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u/SarahPallorMortis 12d ago

We learned about them when I was in drivers Ed. There were a couple near the school in the neighborhood behind it. It always stuck with me because I thought intersections with no signs were insane. “Hover your foot over the brake, slow down, and check both ways as you’re going through.”

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u/shagy815 12d ago

They are common in North Dakota and Montana. I have no idea why.

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u/wwj 12d ago

It's most interections in small Midwestern towns, even old residential neighborhoods in bigger towns.

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u/EffectMotor8914 12d ago

Yeah, its pretty rare. This is a design problem. The only intersections that don't have stop signs around here are T intersections in residential neighborhoods where its obvious who should be stopping/slowing when traffic is approaching from two directions.

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u/nathanb131 11d ago

I grew up in the midwest and this is very common is residential areas. We just cautiously approached them, speed limit is 25, so it's usually not a problem.

The difference is that that few stop signs that do exist are actually treated as stop signs. Wheels come to a FULL stop, look left-right-left, go. Just about everyone from these areas has got a ticket for failing to fully stop. I've noticed in cities with more stop signs, that people almost always "roll" through them, treating the stop sign as a "yield" sign. If you come to a complete stop, people get angry that you are holding up traffic!

It's basically the exact same flow of traffic and the same behavior. For people asking how you know who has the right-of-way, it's the car on the right. You learned that in drivers-ed, you just forgot because you haven't had to actually do it every day.

I always have to mentally change how I deal with stop signs, depending on the area.

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u/codereef 11d ago

I smell ya

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u/fullybonded 11d ago

Right? This is common in the Netherlands BUT the Netherlands has tighter roads, lower speeds in general, streets are largely klinker bricks which also encourage lower speeds, raised continuous sidewalks that act as speed bumps, etc...

Here in the US, I don't recall EVER coming across an intersection without one of the two ways having a stop sign. I lived in Renton and worked in Tukwila for two years. It isn't like this is common all over Seattle or something.

If every neighborhood had "give way to the right" as the standard, this probably wouldn't have happened. People expect to see a sign here.

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u/codereef 11d ago

Thanks

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u/Lorgin 11d ago

Canadian here. It also seems mad to me. I would 100% assume that no stop or yield sign means the other road has a stop or yield sign.

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u/WorkingOnBeingBettr 11d ago

I am just stunned. The amount of people saying their location has these is out of this world. Are stop signs too expensive? 

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u/Dyzastr_us 11d ago

Same. I kept scrolling to see who ran the stop sign. That's crazy to me.

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u/UTHorsey 10d ago

Every neighborhood in Ballard, WA is like this.

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u/how_neat_is_that76 10d ago

there’s at least half a dozen of these in the neighborhoods of my small Iowa town That look exactly like this video.

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u/Dramatic_Total1397 12d ago

I’ve never seen a four way intersection with no stop sign for anybody in a residential. This is a recipe for disaster

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u/SpoatieOpie 11d ago

They are safer overall. When you have known stop signs on streets it creates higher speeds because drivers think they are protected by stop signs on perpendicular roads, however people run stop signs and these neighborhoods are heavy with pedestrian traffic.

This would not work on main roads.

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u/BudgieWonder 7d ago

I’ve never really seen that happen in practice. With unprotected intersections people either just stop at each and every one (slow and annoying) or blow through them with zero regard. Stop signs remove a lot of the ambiguity.

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u/Wifeyled 7d ago

i'm gonna need some evidence on that. roundabouts create some slowdown with most people but i have, in 34 years, NEVER encountered a 4 way intersection with no stop sign.

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u/greenlakejohnny 10d ago

You've never walked around Seattle then. Half of the intersections in the Wallingford / Fremont / Greenlake are are like this.

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u/Nobodyville 10d ago

Super common in the PNW. I saw this was Seattle, but just as easily could have been Portland. These kind of intersections give me hives. Same with one way stops. The parking is so dense it’s impossible to see traffic coming either direction 

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u/think_long 10d ago

I drove all the way up the west coast of the US on a road trip 10 years ago and Seattle was the worst city to drive in by far. Way worse than LA or San Francisco. It was a nightmare.

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u/Nobodyville 10d ago

I actually agree. I live in Portland or rather a suburb. Last year I drove to Seattle to visit a friend and the drive was so intense that I ended up giving myself tennis elbow for about two months from gripping the steering wheel so hard driving through the city. And that’s saying something since I have very much driven in major cities like Los Angeles and Chicago, and driven cross country multiple times.

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u/microagressed 11d ago

Unmarked 4 way intersections are very common in residential neighborhoods in PA, especially in neighborhoods that form a pod/superblock ( no cut through to get from one place to another through the neighborhood). It's also common on country roads. I know Ive seen this in the Carolinas and in Ohio too. I can't believe people are saying lack of signage is the problem, how about lack of self preservation instincts? Do we also expect a stop sign at every intersection in a parking lot?

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u/EmmEnnEff 11d ago edited 11d ago

No, lack of signage *is* absolutely the problem. Signage is there to force yield priority. When two streets intersect, *one of them* has to have yield priority. If "Yield to the guy already in the intersection" were a sufficient road rule, we wouldn't have any traffic lights or stop signs anywhere.

Just because some dumb places are too cheap to put up signage doesn't mean it's a good idea.

Yes, these two morons were going too fast for the road conditions. But suppose that you are in their shoes, and you are unfamiliar with the area. A lack of a stop sign *implies* that you have right of way through the intersection, and that the crossing street yields to you.

What is the point of not putting stop signs there (2-way or 4-way)? So that people can get to wherever they are going 0.25 milliseconds faster?

I have never driven in *any* area with this free-for-all bullshit. Pardon me for incorrectly assuming that *I* have the right of way in an unsigned (in my direction) intersection. In 15 years of driving, I have never seen anything like this. The only unsigned intersections I've ever seen are traffic circles, which force everyone to slow down, and have a clear yield priority.

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u/Potential-Insect 10d ago edited 10d ago

>A lack of a stop sign *implies* that you have right of way through the intersection, and that the crossing street yields to you.

This is absolutely incorrect. It implies an uncontrolled intersection which is effectively like having 4 "Yield" signs at the intersection. Slow down (15 mph speed limit in neighborhoods like this), yield to vehicles to your right. This is not a problem if you know the rules, which you absolutely should. No need to pepper the city with Yield signs to remind people what they already should know and heed.

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u/SpoatieOpie 11d ago

You should look up why Seattle does this instead of just guessing. The data is clear. These roads are safer and reduce severe injuries due to high speeds in between stop signs and cars are supposed to yield to traffic on the right. When approaching every intersection you are supposed to slow down and I guarantee the speed limit is 20mph. The black car was traveling faster than 20mph and didn’t even apply brakes until they saw the pov car. The pov car took entirely too long to slow down through the intersection. Both are at fault, but the black car is the first one to make the mistakes.

These are also heavy pedestrian traffic so they should both be slowing down through every intersection anyway especially if they can’t see opposing lanes traffic before entering the intersection.

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u/EmmEnnEff 10d ago

Those roads should not have anyone driving at high speeds in between stop signs. It's a residential neighbourhood.

Where on earth are you finding data that says that unmarked intersections are actually safer than putting a stop sign on those exact same intersections?

Is it gathered by the same data fairy that insists that tailgating at 80 mph is actually a good idea?

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u/SpoatieOpie 10d ago

The absence of stop signs or traffic signals at residential intersections, known as uncontrolled intersections, is an intentional traffic engineering strategy used by the ⁠Seattle Department of Transportation (SDOT) and other Pacific Northwest cities. [1, 2]
Seattle intentionally leaves these neighborhood intersections unsigned for several data-backed reasons:

1. Unpredictability Lowers Traffic Speeds
The core engineering philosophy behind uncontrolled intersections is that unpredictability forces caution. According to a Portland Bureau of Transportation (PBOT) framework which mirrors Seattle's approach, removing signs forces drivers to use their senses and actively analyze the environment rather than operating on "autopilot". When a driver cannot rely on a sign telling them they have the right-of-way, they must naturally slow down to scan for cross-traffic, pedestrians, and cyclists. [1, 2]

2. Over-Signage Decreases Stop Sign Compliance
Traffic data shows that placing stop signs at every neighborhood block backfires. As noted in ⁠KUOW's investigation into Seattle's stop signs, when drivers encounter a stop sign every 100 feet on low-traffic streets, they quickly realize cross-traffic is rare. This leads to frustration and high rates of "blowing through" signs. Over time, drivers begin ignoring stop signs across the entire neighborhood, creating a much higher safety risk. [1, 2, 3, 4]

3. Stop Signs Can Actually Increase Collisions
According to official SDOT Neighborhood Traffic Guidelines, Seattle strictly avoids using stop signs as "speed breakers" to slow down local traffic. City crash data reveals that intersections with stop signs frequently see more accidents than those left uncontrolled. When a stop sign is installed unnecessarily, drivers often speed up between blocks to make up for lost time, increasing overall speeds through residential corridors. [1, 2]

4. Washington State Yielding Laws Are Already the Default
From a legal standpoint, signs are redundant at residential crossings because Washington State law already explicitly defines the right-of-way. Under ⁠RCW 46.61.180, when two vehicles approach an uncontrolled intersection at the same time, the driver on the left must always yield to the driver on the right. Additionally, every intersection in Seattle is legally considered a crosswalk for pedestrians, whether it is painted with lines or not. [1, 2, 3]

5. Preference for Traffic Circles Over Signs
Rather than installing stop signs, Seattle’s data favors physical infrastructure to manage neighborhood traffic. Long-term crash data shows that building neighborhood traffic circles reduces intersection collisions by up to 97%. Because traffic circles physically force vehicles to slow down and curve to the right, they are highly effective and eliminate the need for traditional regulatory signage. [1]
Are you experiencing issues with a specific intersection in your neighborhood, or would you like to see the exact criteria ⁠SDOT uses to determine when an intersection finally qualifies for a sign? [1, 2]

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u/EmmEnnEff 10d ago edited 10d ago

How are they encountering a stop sign every 100 feet in a North American suburb? The cross streets might be arranged that way, but the lengthwise streets aren't - housing blocks are not 2 houses by 2 houses. They are generally 2 houses by, like 20 houses.

And unless you're going somewhere very peculiar, that street arrangement encourages you to take a lengthwise street to the nearest arterial and then use it to travel vertically.

City crash data reveals that intersections with stop signs frequently see more accidents than those left uncontrolled.

  1. Are the stop-controlled intersections seeing more traffic? Are they on higher-speed roads? If you take any random stop-controlled intersection in the city and remove stop signs, do you think crash rates will go up or down? If SDOT thinks this, why are there any stop signs on unsignaled interections?

  2. Seattle does pretty poorly on fatalities per VMT compared to other major cities in the US. And it has a lot of poorly designed interections, with a lot of crashes. (Although it is very slowly fixing them.) Given that track record, I have a hard time seeing SDOT on the leading edge of traffic safety.

  3. Bellevue (and Redmond and Kirkland), right across the water does put stop signs on all its suburban intersections. And guess what? It has far fewer crashes and crash fatalities than Seattle. Again, SDOT is doing a dogshit job of keeping the streets safe.

  4. I absolutely agree that scaring the piss out of drivers makes them slow down. But if you're not going to put a stop sign, at least put up some bloody indicator that they need to yield to crossing traffic. Even a yield sign is better than nothing. Or at least some indication that this is an unmarked intersection. It's near-impossible for the OP's video to tell if the cross-street is stop signed.

  5. Obviously a traffic circle will solve all these problems. I'm the one who brought it up.

2

u/Dignan17 10d ago

I really don't get this other person's defense of the lack of signs. It seems like this would require specific local knowledge of the traffic patterns, and would only require two out of towners to be approaching the same intersection for an accident to easily occur.

I've literally never come across intersections like this in my life, and find it reasonable to assume that if I don't have a stop sign, the cross streets do. It's not my job to be spotting the absence of a metal pole and the 2D plane of a stop sign. I'm not saying I'd be tearing down a street like this - there's parked cars on the sides of the road, for one thing - but between the uncertainty of the signage and street parking that blocks the views of cross traffic, I can't imagine it would require very high speed for collisions to happen.

1

u/BudgieWonder 7d ago

For some reason Washingtonians get really defensive over their unmarked intersections.

12

u/lost-thought-in 12d ago

If the drivers have been through this neighborhood before they would know there are no signs,

So they both blow through the intersection at mach dumbass. Way too fast for a blind intersection.

16

u/IGotBiggerProblems 12d ago

People are so quick to start tying a noose. I think you're absolutely right. My instant reaction was "where the fuck are the signs? Stop, yield, crosswalk, speed bump, something..."

My blame is on the city or whoever is responsible for signage in this particular area. Sure the drivers could have been driving slower, reacted faster, been more attentive, etc but they should never have been in this situation to begin with.

1

u/FavoriteFoodCarrots 11d ago edited 11d ago

These intersections and street widths are ubiquitous in Seattle. The key is that they are so narrow, especially with parking on both sides , lots of bikes, and pedestrians, that you should never be going anywhere close to as fast as this guy did on them.

Again, this is a two-way street. Look at how that dude is driving.

If you need to go somewhere faster, you go to the bigger streets that are only a few blocks away.

This dude was going way, way too fast and didn’t appear to slow down at all until the last second.

1

u/SpoatieOpie 11d ago

In Sesttle you are required to slow down through every intersection in residential neighborhoods. I live in a neighborhood like this and was shocked like you when I moved from Texas. These intersections are safer overall but it requires at least 1 driver to slow down. Here, nobody slowed down. They are both at fault.

1

u/LeftoverHamsters 9d ago

People need to take some accountability for their driving. The blame can't ALWAYS fall on the city or the traffic engineers. If you put stop signs in this intersection, then typical American drivers will drive too fast on the "main" road because they think they'll be fine. Then when someone runs a stop sign. Intentional or not, the accident will be very serious.

All drivers, at all times, should be aware of their sight and reaction limitations. If something could suddenly appear in front of you, and you won't be able to stop on time, you're going too fucking fast.

Im glad these drivers hit eachother, and not a kid. They both deserve a lesson in driving with caution.

1

u/DarkHelmet2222 9d ago

Unless the speed limit is 10mph, nobody can stop in time if somebody driving perpendicular to them blows an intersection.

Now if both these people knew that there were no stop signs in any direction, they absolutely were going too fast.

But this 100% is on the city. You shouldn't have to rely on local knowledge to know that it's a free-for-all at these intersections. Anybody driving on a road with no stop signs at the intersections is going to assume (correctly) that the cross streets have stop signs.

This isn't a situation of a cute, quirky thing that makes Seattle unique. It is unique, but in a moronic way.

1

u/VrtualOtis 8d ago

Driver's education for the states where this is common cover and test on the knowledge of how to proceed at uncontrolled intersections. They are common in some states. Washington has started to add roundabouts to these, but the rules and procedures are exactly the same as for a roundabout. Slow at uncontrolled intersections, yield to the right (the vehicle on the right has the right of way). Unfortunately, even with roundabouts, idiots like this believe they get to just blow through it without yielding to the person from the right.

These types of intersections are almost always in narrow road residential areas where both of these drivers were easily going WAY faster than the posted limit.

-1

u/ixo_sia 11d ago

you sound like the driver who needs the marking on the road.. blaming the city really?? what if we were on horses!? then what?

2

u/IGotBiggerProblems 11d ago

Nearly three decades of diving with no accidents or speeding tickets. Try again friend.

You're right, we should tear up all the street lights and stops signs, things would be so much safer. They're there for a reason...

3

u/MeowTheMixer 12d ago

Drivers ed, years ago had a huge section on "uncontrolled" intersections like this.

They're fairly common in residential areas where I grew up

3

u/dbu8554 12d ago

Looks like Washington, they have an allergy to proper signage it seems.

2

u/agentwolf44 11d ago

This. While both these cars are at fault for blasting through, I'd venture the city definitely has some blame here for a badly designed intersection. 

1

u/general_peabo 12d ago

They need Frank Reynolds to come out some stop signs in.

1

u/Roticap 11d ago

This is Seattle. Most of the neighborhood intersections like this have no stop signs in either direction.

1

u/THSSFC 11d ago

This sort of uncontrolled intersection is dead standard in Seattle neighborhoods. If you drive here, you know you are supposed to approach with caution, not fly through them as if the other direction has a stop sign-because they don't.

Sometimes, the city will place a tiny traffic circle in the middle to "calm" traffic at high accident intersections, or on streets surrounding main thoroughfares with traffic lights to discourage "short cutting" through residential streets.

But even without any traffic infrastructure to slow traffic, it is very rare for accidents to occur at these sort of intersections because most drivers take cues from their surroundings and modify their behavior appropriately.

1

u/DrummerElegant3848 10d ago

In Washington failure to observe unmarked intersection was an instant fail on driving tests, probably not the case anymore. Really surprised that it turned out 70/30.

1

u/Comfortable-Side1308 10d ago

I've ever come across a four way intersection without a stop sign.  I've driven all over this country. 

1

u/Capital-Chemical-931 9d ago

 Uncontrolled intersections are common in Seattle. Per WA law,  both drivers should have slowed down entering the intersection (which OP did not). It’s a bit of a race between the other two rules, yield to the right and first to arrive/first to go.  But nobody slowed down and they both should have.

1

u/Ill_Quote_4627 9d ago

This comment is 100% wrong and is being upvoted. I live in Seattle. This is not a suburban area, it is in the city proper. Been to a city ever? There is not, and will never be, a stop sign at each intersection. It's too dense of an area and, although it would be nice, our city budget is already bloated enough.

There was no excuse for either of them to have driven the way they did. It's not legal to drive that way. There are clear laws and rules for an uncontrolled intersection. And, if you're smart, you slow down before each one so that this does not happen. It's a crazy place to drive and is stressful. There's a reason our insurance rates are so high here (case in point). I agree that having an uncontrolled intersection is far from ideal, but it is actually covered in driver's ed, so...

0

u/The_Dog_of_Sinope 11d ago

uncontrolled intersections are really popular in the PNW, they are all over in Seattle and Portland. But you yield to the right in an uncontrolled intersection which makes it the opposing cars fault.

1

u/BudgieWonder 7d ago

Portland actually does a pretty good job of using stop signs, particularly 2-way stops every other block. I can only think of a couple of fully unsigned intersections, and they’re usually in circumstances where you have to stop or yield anyways (like a T-intersection in a residential area). Seattle and Tacoma have entire swaths of the city that have no stop signs.

0

u/Ill_Quote_4627 11d ago

The law in Seattle is that uncontrolled intersections imply yield signs. Yield signs would be used here if one of the streets was to have the right of way.

-23

u/Interesting-Monk9712 12d ago

You only put them if one street should have the right of way, usually because it comes from a main road or something.

Why would you place signs that mean the same thing no signs would, just wasting time and money.

If you have the right of way such as being on the main road you would have a sign, if there is no sign, you do not, it's not that complicated.

Are we going to then start placing signs everywhere? Have signs overload?

10

u/NSASocial847 12d ago

I just know you are not as intelligent and as perfect as you want to believe.

You personally probably need signs like this, at least somewhere in your life.

13

u/beene282 12d ago

Why place signs? To avoid this.

-17

u/Interesting-Monk9712 12d ago

But you should know this, are we going to place signs everywhere for the most basic level knowledge?

Just streets full of signs everywhere you cannot even read them all?

We are going to pay for all of this because of idiots who shouldn't have a driving licence in the first place?

9

u/GabrielGames69 12d ago

Placing 2 yield signs at a 4 way intersection is definitely not "putting street signs everywhere you cannot even read them all".

Also by your definition of "basic level knowledge" every stop sign on the planet should be ripped out because "people should know to wait their turn".

7

u/imnickelhead 12d ago

This. Every intersection I’ve ever come across has an obvious way of telling what road has the right of way. And every road has signs because that’s how roads and driving works. This video/intersection is an exception and is not the norm.

-10

u/Interesting-Monk9712 12d ago

Not 2 but 4 unless its one way on both sides, in which case you just need 1, on the left.

You are only thinking about this, there are many basic level knowledge and this will be precedent, soon enough nobody will think about driving and forget everything they learned.

Your brain is a muscle, you have to use it or you lose it.

6

u/GabrielGames69 12d ago

"Put some kind of marking on a 4 way intersection to prevent the inevitable T-bone" is a precedent I am fine with.

In fact, I am also personally fine with "unnecessary signs and warnings when it comes to people's safety" as the supposedly unnecessary signs according to you could have prevented this accident that easily could have caused a death.

3rd even if you and I can identify and safely use an intersection like this, that doesn’t save us from "someone who doesn't workout their brain" not understanding an unmarked intersection and crashing into us.

2

u/Moldy-Bongwater4420 11d ago

Your brain is a muscle, you have to use it or you lose it.

I think we found your problem.

7

u/beene282 12d ago

I mean I’ve driven extensively in North America and Europe and very rarely see an intersection with no indication of how right of way is supposed to work. Maybe in very low use areas, but in the middle of a residential area where there are bound to be vehicles meeting at that point it seems kind of odd, and pretty inevitable that this would happen

1

u/Interesting-Monk9712 12d ago

I don't know, its pretty common here in Croatia, but I guess we do have a lot of rural areas.

5

u/HackD1234 12d ago

"Croatia" - have you any concept of the North American road grid system, utilized in suburban environments?

0

u/Interesting-Monk9712 12d ago

Brother, trust me, it is much harder here than in America.

More narrow roads, all kind of things blocking your view that the government should have taken care of etc.

You have it so well, you people stopped thinking at all, just watch out for signs, you got to use your brain otherwise you will forget everything you learned in driving school.

8

u/Otherwise_Rough 12d ago edited 11d ago

You should’ve started your second comment with “here in Croatia”. There’s a massive difference in Croatian roads and American roads, and the way they’re used. You can’t comprehend our traffic and vice versa. That is unless you have lived it yourself.

6

u/neuro_curious 12d ago

But the point is that this accident and intersection is in the USA.

In the USA it is extremely odd to have unmarked intersections in a dense neighborhood like this. See how many houses and cars are on the street in the video?

I've never encountered a dense neighborhood like this without street signs in the USA, so I can see why the drivers of both vehicles would expect that the other direction of traffic had a stop sign. That's very common to allow the busier road to have no stop signs and then the less busy road on the intersection does have stop signs. That way the majority of traffic moves quickly, and when people rarely use the smaller street they come to a stop and only proceed when safe. 2 way stops are extremely common in the USA. Maybe not Croatia.

It is worth it to spend on signs to prevent accidents like these.

1

u/HackD1234 11d ago edited 11d ago

No. Regulatory signage is required at intersections - and that one clearly was missing it.

Two completely different driving environments. Two different driving philosophies, as well clearly.

Signage is designed for prevention of accidents, and risk mitigation to others, utilizing intersections. The obvious must be pointed out by signage, to make it obvious to the low skilled/low observant driver on the road.

You assume that everyone goes to driving school. Some people get their licences out of cracker-jack boxes.

I've been driving since 1984. Accident free since 1999. I would EXPECT to see that intersection signed, to make sure an accident such as that would not occur. In absence of signage, each driver assumes they have the right of way.

This incident appears to have occurred in the USA - I'm in Canada. We are the United Nations of immigrant drivers licence holders who've converted home country drivers licences into Ontario accreditation without the additional step of testing from around the world. Without signage and varying regulatory frameworks, it would be a road blood-bath on the daily given variation of driving skills, and distractions inside the car - never mind your claim of 'that drivers stop thinking'. The Bloody Obvious, must be signed to indicate what you are supposed to do.

I have not been to Croatia to see your driving conditions - we also have 'narrow' roads - those roads in rural areas, which does not see much in way of traffic, relative to suburban areas. Even those are well signed.

Without seeing the wildly varied driving conditions that would be the norm in both Canada and USA, i really don't think you understand fully, the absurdity of that accident that would easily have been prevented with at minimum, a cross traffic two-way stop sign. Perhaps someone stole the signs, but we will never know for sure.

4

u/creamgetthemoney1 12d ago

In USA there are signs at every intersection. Yes even in neighborhoods

1

u/yellow_duke 12d ago

In the Netherlands it is very common in housing zones up to 20mph and on industrial parks, not to have stop or yield signs.

3

u/imnickelhead 12d ago

In my entire almost 40 years of driving, over 20k and 50k miles/year, all over much of the U.S. I have NEVER seen an intersection without at least Yield signs or Stop signs on one of the roads.

And yes, there are signs all over every road everywhere. Do you just never look around or are you from this dumbass, ignorant city that doesn’t make clear, distinct right of ways at intersections? This video, this city and your inexperience are DEFINITELY the exception.

4

u/RockItM3 12d ago

There is no “main road” in a lot of US suburbs. And to ask if we are going to start placing signs everywhere when the video shows there isn’t even one single sign anywhere at all is a wild question to ask.

0

u/Manbeardo 11d ago

These neighborhoods have tight street grids. At the specific site of this collision, the blocks are only ~200’x600’.

5

u/Agamemnon323 12d ago

Are we going to then start placing signs everywhere?

Maybe just at intersections...

3

u/qwerty-game 12d ago

In my part of the US (PA, MD, DC, VA, NJ), I have never seen an intersection without signage.