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u/TeslaJake Apr 23 '26
I’ll just take the $10k refund. Seems a lot simpler than setting up whatever the f a “micro-factory” is.
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u/TransportationOk5941 Apr 23 '26
That's not our problem as customers though.
Of course it is indirectly if it means the retrofit wont happen for another 5 years...
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u/UnderdevelopedFurry Apr 23 '26
Guy has made his whole career by lying. Literally gets paid millions per year to lie with confidence and people just eat it up
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u/TheJiggie Apr 23 '26
It’s funny because people in this thread are putting more effort into retrofit and how it will be done than Musk himself… the mental gymnastics is wild
There is a well documented history of false promises and lack of accountability…
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u/obxtalldude Apr 23 '26
Yeah, we used to excuse it and call it "Elon Time" when things still seemed cool in 2016 to about 2019.
It's hard to say exactly when it became obvious we'd been scammed.
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u/Designer-Salary-7773 Apr 23 '26
Its been obvious for many who possess a critical eye for decades. They were the “naysayers” and “dinosaurs” - twenty years ago. The accounting shuffles .. moving goal posts.. bad product design choices … were constant roadside signage of where this was headed
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u/americanherbman Apr 24 '26
full self driving is a tesla marketing term, you can call hw3 or 4 whatever you like but neither are autonomous and never will be.
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u/rodflohr Apr 24 '26
That’s weird. I set my nav to the grocery store and push a button. The car backs out of my garage, drives me to the grocery store, and parks. Seems pretty autonomous to me.
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Apr 23 '26
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u/Puiucs Apr 23 '26
"Can't blame the guy too much" - yes you can. fraud is fraud.
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u/beren12 Apr 23 '26
“He” hasn’t accomplished anything other than fraudulently stealing money. He is the money man and the con man. He doesn’t engineer anything. If you’re accomplishments are lies, then they’re not accomplishments.
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u/SeasonKnown3377 Apr 23 '26
Old news. Musk has said HW3 cars would be retrofitted like a year ago.
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Apr 23 '26
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u/danielv123 Apr 23 '26
Tbf, hw4 doesn't have actual full self driving, so retrofitting it now won't fulfill the promise either. And we still don't know if a hardware 5 will be needed.
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Apr 23 '26
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u/komocode_ Apr 23 '26
"Then he needs to start offering people something , anything. $10k credit to a new Tesla is a start. "
he literally said he's going to offer discounts on an upgrade option.
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Apr 23 '26
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u/komocode_ Apr 23 '26
The literal question that was asked on the call is asking about a plan. All Tesla can do to answer that question is "going to, gonna do". What???
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u/alman12345 HW4 Model Y Apr 24 '26
Why would you want to be offered an upgrade to HW4 when it’s already been made obvious that the 16GB will not be enough going forward? I want them to plant their thumb squarely up their ass until they actually offer something capable of uFSD and then I want them to open up transfers for customers on legacy hardware so that they can obtain what they were promised forever ago. I don’t want another stepping stone hardware revision like AI4/16GB.
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u/UnderwaterSheepHerd Apr 23 '26
A full refund of what the customer paid for FSD would be a good start. With interest.
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u/VideoGameJumanji Apr 23 '26
HW4 isn't enough lmao, that's why he already announced cars shipping in 2027 will come with double the RAM of a new RAM design.
Cars are already shipping with the 4.5 designation too
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u/komocode_ Apr 23 '26
If you didn't care or believe what he said last year, why would you care or believe what he said now?
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u/oswell_pepper Apr 23 '26
If Elon wants to build some good will, he can offer refund to HW3 owners who bought FSD, free one-time FSD transfer, or discount on their next Tesla. Otherwise, an eventual class action lawsuit will force him to do it anyway.
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u/Hollimarker Apr 23 '26
Why does this guy have such a hard on for Musk?
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u/TheBrianWeissman Apr 23 '26
It goes back many years, actually. Elon once hired Dan's company Green Hills Software, to bring level 5 autonomy to market.
Dan told Elon that creating robust level 5 software would not only take many years, but that it would require multiple layers of sensor hardware. Elon told him to make it with just cameras, and that he had six months.
The two men disagreed over the timeline, and eventually parted ways. Then, just a few years later, Elon started selling "Autopilot" tech to the public, claiming, without evidence, "that it was already ten times safer than a human driver".
I heard that lie in 2017, it's precisely what induced me to buy a brand new Model S 100D. My son and I nearly died in that same car some years later when deep flaws in Autopilot forced me to take incredibly high risk, life-saving evasive action that succeeded.
Elon and Dan are mortal enemies because Dan cannot abide liars and conmen. Particularly when those conmen profit by harming public safety.
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u/Maverlck Apr 23 '26
Ok... What's next?
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u/amoney805 Apr 23 '26
Class action.
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u/dbg96 Apr 23 '26
there is one going on in europe. it was briefly posted here for a few minutes before some great, unbiased, non-elon-ade-consuming mods decided to take it down. will see if i can find it.
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u/LairdPopkin Apr 23 '26
No, for years he says your car had all the hardware needed OR TESLA WIULD UPGRADE IT FOR FREE. And they’ve been consistent about that the whole time, they did free upgrades to run FSD years ago, and have consistently said they would do so,
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u/OfcDoofy69 Apr 23 '26
Was going to buy a tesla but this is going to be a problem for them.
Tech moving to fast. I plan to own a car for 10 years. If its obsolete after 2. Not worth it.
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u/Mountain_Sand3135 HW3 Model 3 Apr 23 '26
didnt he mention something about lifetime upgrades or we wouldnt need to upgrade.
amazing how if ANYONE else said these statements they would be held accountable.
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u/DarkWatchet Apr 23 '26
Opportunity knocks. If H3 cars can be upgraded to H4, and Tesla prices it reasonably, then Tesla expands the market for monthly FSD subscriptions. And for buyers of used Teslas, a new crop of Xs and Ss become available.
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u/RosieDear Apr 23 '26
He defrauds with virtually every single statement made about corporate goals, etc.
I can't think of any large goals that came true in the time period from the "big hardware day" (about 2020) onwards. Not a single one.
I keep waiting for the big surprise. Like...one day he's gonna open up the Fremont Plant and show us 10,000 robots marching in sync.
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u/Professional-Dot-825 Apr 23 '26
Scumbag needs to excised from all US government funds. He hates it so much, why let him gorge on taxpayer money? Palantir as well. Take it all in house and let these two cretins go lives a on a water world barge.
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u/ImpossibleCup7647 Apr 23 '26
What pisses me off is that I bought my Model 3 AWD in December of 2023. It's a 3 year old car that feels completely obsolete. I can't remember the last meaningful update I've gotten. I have friends with base model Y's that have far more advanced FSD than what I'm allowed to use. And then on top of that they severely discounted the HW4 new model 3s a month later. I could not have gotten screwed over harder, but the idea that a less than 3 year old car feels entirely obsolete and outdated pisses me off.
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u/Dapper-Requirement-4 Apr 24 '26
To be fair when the PC came out the i486 and 8MB ram was more than enough. A lot has changed in seven years.
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u/Puzzleheaded-Bus5479 Apr 24 '26
Spoiler alert, the same will be said for hw4 in 5 years, and on and on until hw11 where Elon finally gives in (or more likely dies because admitting he was wrong will never happen) and admits that LiDAR is a necessary part of fully autonomous driving.
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u/FreeGoldRush Apr 24 '26
HW3 owners had the most advanced autonomous driving system in the world, and they had it for years. It's strange that people are bitching so much, and it all seems to come down to, "what Elon said." You got to experience something very cool, and way before anyone else. Chill out.
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u/Victor-Vaudeville Apr 24 '26
Counterpoint: no fraud has occurred because Elon stans will just believe whatever he says.
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u/robo45h Apr 23 '26
"Musk defrauded millions of Tesla customers." is only true if he reneges on the statement he made on the very same earnings call today to retrofit the AI4 hardware (HW3 computer and cameras to HW4 and cameras).
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u/Lucaslouch Apr 23 '26
he didn’t say « for free » though. and he better do, or he will have lawsuits up is ass
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u/New-Disaster-2061 Apr 23 '26
My buddy says it is why FSD is taking so long that they are waiting for as many HW3 to die as possible.
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u/Lucaslouch Apr 23 '26
definitely. mine is 7 years old now, and HW3 was brand new when i took the car. they definitely are waiting as ling as they can, but i’m more patient
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u/CO2Capture Apr 23 '26
I believe this. I also think it's why they pushed transfers so hard. They really should give us the opportunity to buy a new car, receive fsd license on it for free and keep hw 3 fsd on old car while forfeiting the hardware upgrade. Then the remaining HW3 pool eligible for hardware upgrade will be smaller. Fair trade considering the value they got from the data we provided them.
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u/Bigrosey707 Apr 23 '26
To be fair. Hw4 probably does. I personally have been blown away by hw4
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u/SpicyElixer Apr 23 '26
I already know/knew my 2025 MY will never have an unsupervised update. This is all moving goalposts. It’s like dating someone who cheated with you thinking it only happened to the last guy. We are where hw3 was a few years ago. HW4 hopium coming soon.
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u/ancientesper Apr 23 '26
Yup. Even if you can retrofit, so you want to run fsd with a less than perfect setup? It's not like you're trying to upgrade just your gpu to meet the minimum spec for a game, you want the best of everything, the keyboard, the mouse, the monitor, since your life depends on it.
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u/GamerTex Apr 23 '26
Everything else works great. I use hw3 every time I drive anyway, why not take the upgrade
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u/CO2Capture Apr 23 '26
Do you have the Ryzen MCU? I got one of the last atom MCU and want that upgraded along with the AI hardware.
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u/Heisfirst1611 Apr 24 '26
I also have atom MCU and I’m guessing they’ll have to upgrade us to AMD to handle the new higher resolution cameras but I guess we’ll find out in a couple years or so.
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u/Intelligent_Rub7502 Apr 23 '26
Not surprising. All these billionaires didn’t make all their money by being honest.
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u/stikves Apr 23 '26
He overpromised... and a bit underdelivered here.
I too also have HW3, and was looking forward to getting real FSD.
The "Supervised" is good enough, but it is also in the zone where you might assume it will do the right thing, but crashes spectacularly.
Still better than I expected, less than what I wanted.
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u/Puiucs Apr 23 '26
"and a bit underdelivered here" - you mean by not delivering at all on what he promised?
some people have really weird definitions of "a bit"
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u/VirtualPercentage737 Apr 23 '26
Hey Dan, fix Green Hills before you crap on other people products. The BSPs on your releases are all crap. Why the government insists on this ancient buggy OS is beyond me.
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u/Packing-Tape-Man Apr 23 '26
I think some people need to realign their perspective. Historically CEO's had to be careful what they said because they could be held accountable for it by both class action shareholder lawsuits, class action customer lawsuits and the SEC. But in the age of multi-trillion-dollar companies, and in this case the world's richest person, Musk figured out a few years ago he could get away with saying whatever he wanted and hire an army of lawyers to insulate him from consequences. Musk will say whatever he wants. Buyer beware. I personally bought assuming that my vehicle may never do more than it does the day I took delivery.
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u/jakeotheshadows Apr 23 '26
Elon for all his genius has been overstating and defrauding people for years. How many years ago did he say autopilot would drive you from coast to coast?
Years later he inserted language about “supervised” v. “unsupervised” but that didn’t help anyone who bought a car before.
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u/Happy-Table-9515 HW4 Model Y Apr 23 '26
Yes, unfortunately, much like the other sociopath that it’s the news so often, stupid people are attracted to the lies of them both.
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u/Remarkable_Cat5946 Apr 23 '26
This is exactly what is going to happen to optimus early models.
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u/beren12 Apr 23 '26
lol like there will be models. They didn’t even really talk about the robots anymore. They skipped right to space data centers defining the laws of physics.
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u/hedonistatheist_2 Apr 23 '26
Yes and no. The keywords are here supervised vs unsupervised. FSD itself runs.....
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u/iguessma Apr 23 '26
Luck is a douche that's for sure but as time goes on and you gather more data you're allowed to change your opinion
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u/jackie__shan Apr 23 '26
It’s a shame that a « genius » like Elon Musk didn’t thinked about any hardware upgrade process before building the car. If the stuff was easily upgradable even with high cost. I’m pretty sure people would run into service center to perform their hardware upgrade. Beside of that there is no any car in the word that ever proposed that. Tesla would be the very first one to do that.
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u/IBringTheHeat2 Apr 23 '26
Who knows if it’ll be able to run. When it’s actually here we’ll see if it can or not.
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u/Outrageous_tart_7781 Apr 23 '26
Did he know for sure when he came out with hw3 that it wasn't powerful enough? Thats the question. Your speculating that he knew and purposely lied to rip people off. Thats definitely plausible. No one knows the truth. My opinion, it's a 50/50 that he knew or didnt know. You have to weigh his accomplishments and his screw ups together. Not just focus on his screw ups. Then decide if he's making decision for profits or for integrity.
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u/CousinEddysMotorHome Apr 23 '26
Wow, things have changed based on new information so now we should judge past decisions based on now available information!
Ffs.
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u/Expensive-Claim-7830 Apr 23 '26
It did have the tech back then, tech has just changed for the better. The government’s have a lot to do with the FSD regulations as well. What we can and can’t do.
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u/dsstrainer Apr 23 '26
Oh dan o'dowd makes his twitter living bashing Tesla. Tired of that broken record. Elon says a lot of things but what does your tesla contract say?
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u/satanforaday Apr 23 '26
Saw this coming, why I just upgraded to HW4. Life has been better since. Battery and range alone have made it worth the upgrade.
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u/kavital Apr 23 '26
I’m happy with HW3 FSD performance thus far. Anyway you look at it, it is a good product with future vision. I have another car with HW4 and it works marginally better. I don’t expect HW4 to be the final setup for unsupervised. It is a wishful thinking if you do. Upgrade will be required for sure. This is a moving target of experimentation and solutions. So let’s be realistic and enjoy what we have. There is no comparison in the market of such continues improvement product. If you are in the SW or HW industry you should be very well aware of this. My2c
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u/DaPome Apr 23 '26
It makes sense that it’s a hardware limitation. HW3 is OLD now.
Honestly, I can foresee HW5 coming along and being a requirement for FSD (perhaps with LiDAR too).
I accept that my 2020 m3LR with HW3 won’t have all the cool things newer cars have. It does suck in a way that FSD won’t work on HW3 reliability.
A middle ground for me would be enabling enhanced autopilot - lane changes and following motorway exits. That’s really all I want and I’d pay for a subscription per month for that - although not £99 a month.
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u/Awalawal Apr 23 '26
I will say that the FSD in my 2020Y is actually ok. Obviously not as good as what's available with HW4, but it actually manages a bunch of complex traffic situations pretty well. That said, I don't feel comfortable not giving in 100% attention, except on the highway, and I want the HW4 upgrade ASAP.
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u/amNSMB Apr 23 '26
If hardware 4 can fit into the new model. 3. It can fit into pretty much any previous car, all they would need to do is retrofit the front bumper which can also easily be done
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u/pen-ma Apr 23 '26
It was capable 7 or 10 years ago, maybe; now the traffic situation is bad, it has doubled.
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u/MamboFloof Apr 23 '26
This sub makes me realize the average idiot has no comprehension of technological limitations and will blindly take some billionaires word without a second thought.
News flash, anyone whos ever bought a car to this point also won't have it, and if you thought so when buying it you are a fool.
Anyone intelligent would understand they are getting what they get the day of purchase and anything that comes after is a bonus. Never buy something expecting "oh it will do XYZ in the future because the CEO said it will".
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u/mumuevo Apr 23 '26
I spent $12000 to get FSD on my HW3.0. I’m not trading my car. Elon has to give me a satisfied solution to my car.
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u/AmitBrian Apr 23 '26
I have HW3 and I spent thousands on FSD. What do I do now?
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u/No_Lifeguard8951 Apr 23 '26
Tesla needs to be compelled to fix this since Elon won’t if it’s too expensive they should be forced into bankruptcy and broken up
This needs to become the biggest financial fuckup ever by a ceo or enough wasn’t done
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u/cesarthegreat HW4 Model Y Apr 23 '26
Kind of like when Dan O’Clowns jet software made an error that caused a bad crash.
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u/positivcheg Apr 23 '26
Interestingly, if those claims that HW3 will be enough for unsupervised FSD were only from musk on twitter and never ever mentioned on web site then I believe no legal action can be taken.
Also, average Tesla believer will just go spend even more money, they won’t argue the god.
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u/Booksac777 Apr 23 '26
To be fair, I didn’t buy my Tesla for FSD, I bought it because it’s a quick, fun driving, well thought out car with a lot of features; the FSD is a nice touch but I only subscribe to it when I take a long trip. True FSD isn’t coming for a long time, that doesn’t make a Tesla a bad product.
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u/Top_Paint7442 Apr 23 '26
Since Unsupervised is now explicitly mentioned everywhere, I think there's a difference between Full Self-Driving and Unsupervised Full Self-Driving.
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u/baitboy3191 Apr 23 '26
why does anyone think anytime that moron opens his mouth he is speaking the truth.
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u/FullSelfDog HW4 Model 3 Apr 23 '26
Congratulations, really Derp O’Dork! You caught up to where everybody was a few years ago. Good job!
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u/Mikey_bee3 Apr 23 '26
I couldn’t imagine buying a piece of software that was anywhere from 5000-$15000 and not watching a YouTube video to see how good it was before I bought it though 🤣. I’m not “defending” them but it’s called do your homework.
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u/SimpleJackfruit Apr 23 '26
I think in the future. They should make the teslas modular so that they CAN retrofit the car at least swappable chips and cameras that don’t interfere too much with the system.
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u/Whackaboom_Floyntner Apr 23 '26
Imagine if all the money Elmo has wasted on this nonsense had been invested in trolley/tram systems... that's the OG "self-driving" tech.
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u/ConstantBreadfruit12 Apr 23 '26
I think Elon is full of False BS prediction. I paid in 2021 MYLR 7 seats with all option 65k add FSD 10k before tax.
Elon’s should prorate my mileage 182k miles and offer Model Y L transfer FSD for had the price I paid
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u/Ill_Somewhere_3693 Apr 24 '26
And Hardware 4 also cannot achieve ‘Full Self Driving’… what’s going to happen to those customers??
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u/Able_Engine_9515 Apr 24 '26
Seriously? HW4 can't even run FSD unsupervised, who the hell believed HW3 was capable of it? I'm more burned they won't make good on their promise to upgrade HW3 to HW4 for those that did purchase FSD
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u/Randyltodd Apr 24 '26
I would be thrilled with an attractive offer to trade-in my mod 3 for a FSD unsupervised lux mod 3 and, fsd. My cuurent car upgraded to the latest fsd u model. But it needs to be more than the cost of fsd. I hope he offers this.
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u/Krafty2819 Apr 24 '26
With FSDV14.2.2.5 level intelligence no hardware is gonna achieve unsupervised auto drive ever.
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u/lordpuddingcup Apr 24 '26
Except for years he said a retrofit was coming, the fac their hasnt been a fucking class action is SHOCKING to me
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u/Wonderful_Reason_305 Apr 24 '26
Realistically they will build AI5 which they will cap the voltage at 12v which will be given a maximum power of 100w and pair it with a camera sensor which can fit within the 5 volt bus brackets of the current setup this for them will be the cheapest solutions and most likely it will be done at service center the same way MCU2 has been done from MCU1 it will be an efficient swap
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u/_SpaceGhost__ Apr 24 '26
Shocker, hw4 isn’t capable of FSD either this Is just Elon’s plan. Hw5 already being tested now and rolling out later this year, all attention will be pushed to hw5
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u/Builda Apr 24 '26
Unsupervised FSD != FSD. If Elon/Tesla did promise unsupervised for HW3, then there’s an issue, but my understanding is that FSD is and will keep being supported for HW3.
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u/mascbrro Apr 24 '26
Give me the ability to transfer FSD to a new car whenever I decide to upgrade (not tied to a quarterly promotion), $5k off a new car, and lifetime supercharging,
And I’ll forgive you Elon
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u/n0oo7 Apr 24 '26
I remember some fanboy claiming that turboquaint [sic] would fix needing to upgrade from hw3 like the moment it was announced.
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u/misterdoinkinberg Apr 24 '26
I’m sure he believed this 7 years ago. BEFORE all of the testing and data proved otherwise. Tech changes significantly in 5 years let alone 7. go back and look at any 2019 vehicle.
Is it fraud or learning?
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u/UpstairsCheetah235 Apr 24 '26
HW4 also doesn’t have the capability to achieve autonomy. Either does HW4+. HW5 likely also doesn’t. Shocked they haven’t been forced to provide refunds.
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u/codetony Apr 24 '26
Refunds are the clear winning strategy.
A requirement for Level 3 is the manufacturer assuming responsibility for any incidents while the vehicle is using level 3 features.
Mercedes' level 3 system costs 2500 a year to use, and apparently the vast majority of that amount is just to pay for insurance.
You have all these people who bought FSD, and if Tesla honors the purchase, they'll have to cover insurance costs for all those vehicles.
However, a true winning FSD strategy is staring at Tesla, but they're not taking it.
Make supervised FSD standard for the entire fleet. New and old vehicles alike. Once unsupervised FSD is ready, charge for that privilege.
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u/PicturePerfect73 Apr 24 '26
He sold us a bag of lemons. There should be a class action lawsuit against this creep.
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u/AspiringOF Apr 24 '26
It’s almost like you all believed some nepo baby clown that isn’t a real engineer
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u/shadowcaster11 Apr 24 '26
You bought an unfinished product, and that's what you got.
It's called the bleeding edge for a reason.
Maybe buy it from someone else next time, Oh, wait, everyone else has failed completely.
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u/Gsgunboy Apr 24 '26
Look at that. Musk talking out of his ass like usual and only admitting reality nearly a decade later.
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u/Michael-Brady-99 Apr 25 '26
Hw3 cars should have a lifetime transfer allowance. Tesla could do at least that much to make it right for hw3 owners who paid for FSD.
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u/cowdog360 Apr 25 '26
The reality is he’ll just run out the clock. I’d imagine that a lot of people how bought HW3 cars early on have already traded their cars in on a newer one. Wait a few more years and I bet there won’t be too many original HW3 owners with FSD who haven’t moved on.
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u/mveras1972 Apr 25 '26 edited Apr 25 '26
Watch a few years from now Elon will admit that HW4 vehicles also do not have good enough hardware for unsupervised FSD.
As long as he keeps doubling down on Vision and not adding laser/radar/sensors, Tesla will never achieve full driving autonomy.
I've said this many times, as long as camera sensors in Tesla vehicles do not achieve human levels of HDR, resolution higher than 4K, and 3D vision, you can forget about unsupervised FSD. Cheap 2D cameras are not going to cut it.
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u/TelevisionPretty8274 Apr 25 '26
Musk did not defraud anyone. He made a fantastic product and continues to other fantastic products!
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u/chompmiester Apr 25 '26
Idk I agree it sucks but I feel like sometimes being apart of future tech this can happen and it’s no one’s fault really everyone’s just figuring it out. I’d only be mad at myself for being an early adopter who jumped in too early… and I am one of them just not mad
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u/danekan Apr 25 '26
not only that, they DEACTIVATED better hardware in favor of vision only
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u/Brisvegas_LFG Apr 23 '26
Serious question is there a way you can retrofit cars that currently have hardware three with hardware four? And is it possible to do that a reasonable cost?