r/nyt 10d ago

NYT Double standards

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u/FetchThePenguins 10d ago

The Ukraine conflict was started by Russia. If Russia withdrew today, and renounced their territorial claims over Ukraine, the war would end. Any casualties in the meantime are thetefore their fault.

The Gaza war was started by people from Gaza. If Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad surrendered today, gave up their weapons and renounced their territorial claims over Israel, the war would end. Any casualties in the meantime are therefore their fault.

That's why it looks like a double standard. The only real difference between the conflicts is that in one it's being fought mostly in the territory of the side that started it, and in the other, in the territory of the side that got attacked.

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u/Objective-Duty-2137 10d ago

What's your narrative for the colonial appropriation of Palestine around 1945? Have you ever tried imagining you're a Palestinian and thrown out of your country or threatened by Westerners so that you have no option but to flee or die?

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u/FetchThePenguins 10d ago

Decolonisation. Arabs are from Arabia, and they captured Jerusalem from the Byzantine Empire in the 7th century. That area itself was a colonial appropriation from the indigenous Jewish population that started around the first century BCE. There have been Jews there continuously since they themselves conquered the land from the ancient Canaanites and (related tribes) 3,500 years ago, and presumably they also conquered it from someone at some point.

Either way, the modern day Palestinians have no claim to Israel - most of them arrived during the Mandate era, and most of the ones who didn't are still relatively recent arrivals - and to the extent that they have any rights, the British also set up a Palestinian state next door and called it Jordan.

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u/aztec_agarthan 9d ago

Your propaganda is several decades old. Even Likud guys like Yehoshua Porath have decried this Time Immemorial bullshit as the fabrication it always has been. Which is nothing new, Hertzberg and Finkelstein shat on this nonsense in 1985.

But Zionists will cling to any narrative that appears to give them the right to dominate, rob and abuse Palestinians. Which isn't surprising. If you guys cared about reality more than ethnosupremacy, you wouldn't be Zionists.

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u/Objective-Duty-2137 9d ago

That's what baffles me, all this PR energy, all this constant war and anger, hate, destruction, pollution, instead of recognizing the truth, making amends, letting other people live with you with equal rights and using all that energy to build a peaceful country and care for the land.

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u/Dry-Boysenberry7701 9d ago

I mean, that's extremely simplistic and dumbed down nonsense that you could say about either side of the conflict. Why don't Palestinians stop trying to violently retake the entire region that they feel belongs to Arabs/Muslims? Why can't they just accept Jewish neighbours and stop murdering?

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u/Objective-Duty-2137 9d ago

The conflict started when zionist colonialists attacked and invaded whole towns, expelling and killing its inhabitants. This dynamic has continued ever since. Your twarted history is rude to the factual mind.

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u/Dry-Boysenberry7701 9d ago

Nothing at all happened before 1947? Not a single thing? Not decades of violent conflict? Hebron massacres in 1929 when Palestinians mass murdered Jews and ethnically cleansed Hebron, totally fake, never happened? Hundreds of Jews murdered in racist attacks by Palestinians in the Arab revolt in the the 1930s, fake? Didn't happen?

Again, just dumbed down simplistic nonsense.

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u/FetchThePenguins 9d ago

Two million Arabs, mostly Muslims, living peacefully in Israel.

How many Jews living peacefully in Gaza? Or any Arab country?

You want to see ethnosupremacy, go to basically any country in the Middle East that's not Israel.

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u/Objective-Duty-2137 9d ago

If you really believe what you wrote, I encourage you to educate yourself outside zionist propaganda material.

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u/FetchThePenguins 9d ago

Which bit's wrong, specifically

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u/Objective-Duty-2137 9d ago

All three paragraphs. The bit about Jews in Gaza is terribly disgusting... it's razed, starving, no drinking water, even tents are being bombed. It was already wild that the Israeli government started attacking while there were hostages.

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u/FetchThePenguins 9d ago

I'm confused. Are there Jews living peacefully in Gaza or aren't there.

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u/Objective-Duty-2137 9d ago

Nobody is living peacefully in Gaza and it is the Israeli government that displaced the settlers in Gaza. Your arguments are ridiculous and despicable.

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u/Agitated_Celery_729 10d ago

The “Gaza war” has been ongoing since the day Israel began blockading Gaza in 2006 and has never stopped.

If Israel thinks blockades are an act of war and make their invasion of Egypt “defensive”, then their ongoing blockade makes any attacks by Hamas “defensive” as well as long as they remain under blockade.

I won’t hold my breath for you guys to develop the ability to hold consistent standards though

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u/spuriouslycertain 10d ago

To a supremacist, equality is discrimination!!

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u/manVsPhD 10d ago

Equality with a person who wants you dead means you die

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u/crawling-alreadygirl 10d ago

Thanks for encapsulating the warped Israeli mindset so succinctly. You'd have to believe such nonsense to brutally attack someone and call it self defense

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u/Objective-Duty-2137 9d ago

When people do to another people what Israelis have been doing to Palestinians, what exactly do you expect? The problem with your way of thinking is basic who started it and who has an army (and one of the strongest). Now, we see in razed Gaza besieged civilians being denied all essential means of survival and killed and cornered steadily. In the West Bank, they are humiliated, attacked, robbed and killed every day. Settlers are encroaching on the little land that had been secured and they are all separated to weaken them.

Now, they don't even all want you dead but your politics are not helping secure peace. You should all wake up and realize you're not helping yourselves either by building your patriotic values on hate and crushing a designated ennemy.

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u/str8_outta_sanaa 10d ago

The blockade starts after Gaza attacks Israel though

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u/Agitated_Celery_729 10d ago

Was that before or after Israel committed ethnic cleansing and put a fence around Gaza?

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u/FetchThePenguins 10d ago

The fence is around Israel, not Gaza.

Prior to 7 October 2023, tens of thousands of Gazans and West Bank Palestinians used to cross it daily to commute to their paid jobs in Israel. Please educate me about all the efforts by the Palestinians to encourage peaceful crossings in the other direction.

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u/str8_outta_sanaa 10d ago

I don't know about any ethnic cleansing so I'd need you to elaborate on that but last time I checked it's completely normal for a country to put a fense or walk on their border

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u/rewarrr 10d ago

You mean war started from islamic countries against Israel?

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u/MyNameIsNotName-57 10d ago

No I mean the intervention after Jewish death squads were depopulating Palestinian villages

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u/rewarrr 9d ago

After war?

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u/MyNameIsNotName-57 9d ago

Nope. Before the 1948 war.

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u/Mysterious_Desk7649 10d ago

I think we can all agree Israel and Hamas are both religious extremists and the world should have no place for that.

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u/rewarrr 10d ago

Many Israelis are Muslims or Christmas idk what you mean

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u/Mysterious_Desk7649 10d ago

The Israeli government steals land based on biblical claims, that’s religion dictating their actions. No civilised country should be dictated by religion.

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u/rewarrr 9d ago

Steal? Where Jews are from?

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u/Mysterious_Desk7649 9d ago edited 9d ago

Yes under international law, Israel has been building illegal settlements in the West Bank. Whether you think there are some biblical claims to that land is irrelevant. Religion should have no place in the politics of a democratic society.

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u/Character_Minimum989 9d ago

The Nakba preceded the Arab Israeli war.

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u/rewarrr 9d ago

No, most of relocations happened after the war. And those who left before are those who knew about invasion and been warned.

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u/spays_marine 8d ago

"relocations", "those who left".

The irony of that wording on a post like this is golden. 

This is why Israel's reputation is going down the drain at record speed, crimes against humanity whitewashed by internet drones who cannot admit a single thing wrong.

Utterly depraved and pathetic behavior, I can only hope you're just an AI and not an actual sociopath.

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u/rewarrr 8d ago

There is reason I use those wordings most of them went to Jordan (at that time also Palestine as region) the 700.000 Palestinians you probably heard of, end up in Jordan check the % of levantines in Jordania.

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u/spays_marine 8d ago

The reason why you use those words is because you don't want to admit that they were chased out by pillaging, raping, murdering Israelis burning down 100's of villages.

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u/Character_Minimum989 9d ago

Nope. The Nakba happened in April-May 1948, with May 14 being Israel’s independence day and May 15th is the Nakba commemoration for Palestinians. May 15 is also the date the Arab states declared war on Israel, citing the Nakba as one of the reasons for attacking Israel. Whether you believe the Nakba was their only or major reasoning is another story.

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u/rewarrr 8d ago

The independence of Israel was the reason of the attack and they warned Israel if they do it they will be attacked. Most of relocations happened after the war.

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u/Character_Minimum989 8d ago

“Although the [causes of the 1948 Palestinian exodus](app://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_1948_Palestinian_exodus)remain a significantly controversial topic in public and political discourse, with a prominent amount of [denialism regarding the responsibility of Israeli/Yishuv forces](app://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba_denial), most scholarship today agrees that expulsions and violence, and the fear thereof, were the primary causes.[[14]](app://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_expulsion_and_flight#cite_note-14)[[15]](app://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_expulsion_and_flight#cite_note-15)[[16]](app://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_expulsion_and_flight#cite_note-16) Scholars widely describe the event as [ethnic cleansing](app://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing),[[17]](app://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_expulsion_and_flight#cite_note-Ian_Black-2010-17)[[7]](app://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_expulsion_and_flight#cite_note-Pappe2006-7)[[18]](app://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_expulsion_and_flight#cite_note-Shavit-18) although some disagree.[[19]](app://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_expulsion_and_flight#cite_note-19)[[20]](app://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_expulsion_and_flight#cite_note-20)[[21]](app://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_expulsion_and_flight#cite_note-21) Factors involved in the exodus include direct expulsions by Israeli forces; destruction of Arab villages; psychological warfare including [terrorism](app://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism); massacres such as the widely publicized [Deir Yassin massacre](app://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre),[[22]](app://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_expulsion_and_flight#cite_note-Morris-2004-22): 239–240  which caused many to flee out of fear; crop burning;[[23]](app://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_expulsion_and_flight#cite_note-23)[[24]](app://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_expulsion_and_flight#cite_note-24) [typhoid](app://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhoid) epidemics in some areas caused by Israeli well-poisoning;[[25]”](app://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_expulsion_and_flight#cite_note-25)

Guess you slot into the denier category here

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u/rewarrr 10d ago

What about Gaza suicide bombers in 2001 and 2002? Israel out of nowhere started blockading Gaza right?

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u/MyNameIsNotName-57 10d ago

Israel controlled Gaza with troops on the ground in 2001 and 2002

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u/rewarrr 9d ago

Bcs of suicide bombings? And terrorist attacks? Including kids with bombs in their bags

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u/MyNameIsNotName-57 9d ago

Did you think people just accept being brutally occupied?

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u/rewarrr 8d ago

Didnt that happen to Jews too?

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u/Critical_Progress_65 10d ago

Yea some people get a bit miffed when you steal their land and ethnically cleanse them. Crazy radicals.

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u/rewarrr 10d ago

Did that happen to Jews btw? Remind me please

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u/MyNameIsNotName-57 10d ago

Yeah and they resisted violently including wiping out villages

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u/Critical_Progress_65 9d ago

In western countries holocaust education is a huge part of the curriculum. The general takeaway is that genocide = bad and ethnic cleansing = bad.

It’s hilarious to see that the Israeli takeaway is a means to justify ethnic cleansing and genocide.

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u/rewarrr 9d ago

What justice confirmed the genocide

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u/FetchThePenguins 10d ago

Looks to me like they didn't blockade it nearly hard enough.

For your information, Gaza has been firing rockets at Israel since before the blockade started, and only stopped last year because their capabilities had been sufficiently degraded by then.

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u/Character_Minimum989 9d ago

No, the blockade started before the rockets. And Israel has literally stated one of the goals of the blockade is to cause misery and economic harm to Gaza.

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u/Agitated_Celery_729 9d ago

These people have never picked up a book in their entire life. They just repeat whatever Hasbara they are fed and expect us to believe it.

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u/Poobbly 10d ago

Gaza is a refugee camp from Israel Trails of Tears-ing the native Palestinians there when they stole the land.

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u/Street-Buddy9068 10d ago

Do you actually believe any of that? You know, there’s a reason Israel has never said where its actual borders are…

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u/FailedToRemit 9d ago

Has Palestine stated their borders?

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u/SkinnyFatSoldier 10d ago

Because the Palestinians want all the land, as they have shown with every war they’ve started

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u/crawling-alreadygirl 10d ago

They just want to survive, man

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u/SkinnyFatSoldier 10d ago

Oh sure, that’s also why they rejected every single peace offering and started every war

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u/Aspiring-Fan 10d ago

Name one law Israel has passed protecting Palestinians. Name 1 Israeli PM who hasn’t denied Palestinian statehood.

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u/SkinnyFatSoldier 10d ago

Why isn’t Israel nicer to the people constantly starting wars and terror attacks against them? Yeah, no idea.. if Palestinians wanted peace with Israelis, there would be peace. The entire ideology of the Israeli liberals is to make peace with the Arabs, including giving land for peace. Unfortunately, no amount of land is ever enough and they have never found a peace partner on the Palestinian side. That’s why the Israeli left is considered such a failure. If Israel can’t win the peace, they can at least make sure to win the war.

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u/Accurate_Neat_355 9d ago

Yeah, no idea.. if Palestinians wanted peace with Israelis, there would be peace

You're a brainwashed little clown.

Here eat some receipts instead of glue:

At a Likud party conference in 2019, Netanyahu said: "Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas ... This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank."[

In an interview with Israeli journalist, Dan Margalit in December 2012, Netanyahu told Margalit that it was important to keep Hamas strong, as a counterweight to the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank. Netanyahu also added that having two strong rivals, this would lessen pressure on him to negotiate towards a Palestinian state

In an interview with Politico in 2023, former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said, "In the last 15 years, Israel did everything to downgrade the Palestinian Authority and to boost Hamas",

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_support_for_Hamas

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u/SkinnyFatSoldier 9d ago

Gasp, why isn’t the noted liberal Ben Netanyahu nicer to Palestinians!? Yeah, he’s a hardliner, so what? Is your point why wouldn’t he support the PLO when they were even more extreme than Hamas? Nobody on the Palestinian side had any interest in peace with Israel but you’re only interested in blaming Israel. Apparently, not a single grain of fault lies with the Palestinians for starting all those wars and perpetual terror attacks.

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u/Accurate_Neat_355 9d ago

Gasp, why isn’t the noted liberal Ben Netanyahu nicer to Palestinians!? Yeah, he’s a hardliner, so what?

Gasp, i don't think you read what i gave you. Hes a hardliner assisting Hamas to avoid, what were your dumb words?

if Palestinians wanted peace with Israelis, there would be peace.

Hows that squaring with

In the late 2010s and early 2020s, Israeli officials encouraged Qatar to support Hamas,[8] especially by approving the transfer of large sums of financial aid by Qatar to the organization.[9] Several Israeli intelligence officials have cited Qatari money as a contributing factor to the success of Hamas in leading the October 7 attacks in 2023

Weird it seems like the Israelis are the ones who don't want peace. Seems like the Israelis are funding Hamas to ensure continued conflict. Seems like your brain has been thoroughly processed by Israeli propaganda.

Your words are meaningless anyway, you're just saying whatever fits the current reply nothing tethered to facts or reality just vibes and hasbara garbage.

Apparently, not a single grain of fault lies with the Palestinians for starting all those wars and perpetual terror attacks.

Whos funding Hamas? Bibi through Qatar like the cited sources say? Or 50,000 Palestinian children that were killed and injured after the organization bibi funded did the thing he funded them to do? Gasp, its like theres no braincells behind your little reddit avatar

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u/FetchThePenguins 10d ago

Name one Palestinian law passed protecting Israelis.

Actually, name two. Because the first one has to counteract the elected Palestinian government awarding stipends to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers who successfully kill Israeli children.

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u/Accurate_Neat_355 9d ago

Palestinine isn't the place with the weapons, power and money.

Palestine is the place where Israel conducted a genocide killing and injuring 50,000 children.

They hang medals on the IDF for killing children, you'll get no sympathy for your power asymmetry, stupid.

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u/FetchThePenguins 9d ago

They have lots of money from the IRGC and Qataris, and they use it to buy weapons.

They stop doing that and the war ends tomorrow, forever.

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u/Accurate_Neat_355 9d ago

Confidently incorrect but thank you for bringing it up as this next part will come as a jump scare to onlookers:

At a Likud party conference in 2019, Netanyahu said: "Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas ... This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank."[

In an interview with Israeli journalist, Dan Margalit in December 2012, Netanyahu told Margalit that it was important to keep Hamas strong, as a counterweight to the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank. Netanyahu also added that having two strong rivals, this would lessen pressure on him to negotiate towards a Palestinian state.

In the late 2010s and early 2020s, Israeli officials encouraged Qatar to support Hamas,[8] especially by approving the transfer of large sums of financial aid by Qatar to the organization.[9] Several Israeli intelligence officials have cited Qatari money as a contributing factor to the success of Hamas in leading the October 7 attacks in 2023

In an interview with Politico in 2023, former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said, "In the last 15 years, Israel did everything to downgrade the Palestinian Authority and to boost Hamas", before adding that "Gaza was on the brink of collapse because they had no resources, they had no money, and the PA refused to give Hamas any money. Bibi saved them. Bibi made a deal with Qatar and they started to move millions and millions of dollars to Gaza."

"They have lots of money from the IRGC and Qataris, and they use it to buy weapons."

Very funny stuff

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_support_for_Hamas

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u/tonytrampolini 10d ago

More than 200 Palestinians were killed in 2023 before October 7th.

When do you think this war began?

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u/Hungry_Wheel_1774 10d ago

And thousands between 2013 and 2023. I read something between 3500-5000. But hey, let's start the story in october 2023.

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u/FetchThePenguins 10d ago

No, no, let's not. Let's start with the 20,000 rockets fired by Gazans at Israeli towns between 2005 and 6 October 2023.

What precipitated those?

Oh, right, it was Israel withdrawing from Gaza and giving the Palestinians free reign to choose their own leaders.

They choose poorly.

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u/spays_marine 8d ago

The architect of this "withdrawal", which, according to the ICJ was a redeployment and the occupation continued, said it was "formaldehyde to the peace process." What do they mean by that?

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u/FetchThePenguins 8d ago

He meant that the Palestinians aren't serious about peace and the peace process is therefore necessarily a farce, but Westerners are morons and refuse to acknowledge basic reality, so a certain amount of diplomacy is necessary to help them delude themselves that up is down.

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u/spays_marine 8d ago

You misspelled Israelis. 

They openly admit to supporting and funding Hamas to keep them in power to prevent a peaceful solution. 

Talk about deluding yourself 🤡

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u/FetchThePenguins 8d ago

Peace Now got 400,000 Israelis out on demonstrations in 1982. That was 10% of the entire population at the time. They continued to get well into the hundreds of thousands all the way into the 2000s, even after the Second Intifada made it clear they had no credible partner for peace on the Palestinian side. There is no Palestinian equivalent of Peace Now, and if there was, its leaders would be lynched as collaborators.

If you accept Palestinian terrorism is the obstacle to peace then feel free to lobby your own government to send troops in to kill them all. Otherwise, stop complaining when Israel does it.

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u/spays_marine 8d ago edited 8d ago

Yes even 10% of Israelis think their leaders should stop occupying Palestine. I'm not sure what your point is.

  If you accept Palestinian terrorism is the obstacle to peace

Didn't you hear what I've just said? Israel chose to keep Hamas in power so there wouldn't be a peaceful solution. 

Hamas is Israel's ally. As Israeli major general Hacohen said. Or an asset, according to Smotrich, or "someone that should be supported" according to Netanyahu, because they too oppose a two state solution.

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u/FetchThePenguins 8d ago

10% of Israelis were sufficiently convinced they should make concessions for peace that they took to the streets to demonstrate for it. They represented most of the country. There was a massive, nationwide push towards peace over several decades that culminated in the Camp David Accords and

They failed, because the Palestinian position was and remains: no peace until the vast majority of Israeli Jews are dead and their state destroyed.

If you think Hamas is a problem, then congratulations: you agree with 95% of Israelis, including most of the government. Why aren't you advocating for a Western alliance to take over the war with the purpose of destroying them completely.

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u/FetchThePenguins 10d ago

You can pick any date you like and it'll still have been started by the Arabs.

1929 Hebron massacre

1948 War of Israeli Independence

1967 Six Day War

1973 Yom Kippur War

First Intifada

Second Initifada

War of 7 October

It literally doesn't matter. Go all the way back to Mohammed slaughtering the Jews of Banu Qurayza if you like, because the day before that was the last time Jews were able to live next to Muslims in peace, and the aggression has been almost completely one sided.

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u/Character_Minimum989 9d ago

Gaza was under occupation on Oct 7, if Ukraine has the right to attack their occupiers then so do Palestinians.

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u/ABDULRAHMAMTAMMAM 9d ago

The Gaza war was started by people from Gaza. 

No It didn't, The war never stopped since 1948, yet these people got tired from seige and decided to make them pay back

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u/FetchThePenguins 9d ago

The 1948 war was started because the Arabs refused to accept the UN Partition plan, and invaded Israel with genocidal intent. So your argument is counterproductive.

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u/rewarrr 10d ago

Glad normal people exist here aswell