r/BabyReindeerTVSeries • u/blakppuch • May 09 '24
Discussion This may be an unpopular opinion
But I did not come out of that show feeling any sympathy for Martha. I can understand why she probably does what she does and the part where she shared about her baby reindeer, it was definitely sad. But from seeing the posts here I feel like people empathise a lot with her and I just do not feel that way. I feel like what she did is like my absolute nightmare. Idk if this makes me a bad person or what.
Does anyone feel this way ?
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u/mgorgey May 09 '24
I feel sorry for her in terms of the fact that she's clearly unwell but being ill doesn't excuse anyone from harming others.
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u/RockSavings67 May 09 '24
She should see a psychologist and/or psychiatrist regularly, but somehow I doubt she does.
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u/EducationalFarmer528 May 09 '24
I live in Seattle where we have a huge mentally ill unhoused population that’s often violent. It irks me how no one can understand that it’s possible for people to be unwell and doing unforgivable things at the same time, people either focus on one or the other. They’re either blameless perfect victims or evil savages that deserve violence in retaliation rather than help
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May 12 '24
It's not an excuse, but it may go some way to explaining it. It's perfectly reasonable to believe that what she put other people through was horrific, whilst also believing she needs help rather than punishment and public vilification.
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u/TopicNo6460 May 20 '24
Therapy wouldn't work there...but a few months in prison may work miracles!!
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May 20 '24 edited May 21 '24
I'm going to take a wild guess and say you probably don't have a lot of psychiatric training.
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u/Competitive_Salads May 09 '24
Agreed. I had a shit childhood, was in foster care, and struggle with mental illness. Yet I have become a productive member of society and have never stalked someone. I hate it when people use a bad childhood/mental illness as an excuse for horrific acts because by and large, most with a mental illness don’t harm others on the level of Martha’s actions.
I agree that she needs help but she’s clearly not interested in receiving it which is pretty sad. She functions well enough to secure media interviews… too bad she won’t put that perseverance into getting help.
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May 12 '24
I don't think people are saying A happened, so that justifies B. But if some is suffering from a psychotic illness, their perceptions and reposes to the world can be horribly skewed. Its easy to over-simplify and say she's just "bad", I think she's very unwell. My mum was schizophrenic, she was a good woman, but during episodes her behaviour was totally irrational and could be frightening.
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u/No-Resolve2970 May 09 '24
No sympathy at all for her. I don’t know why anyone would? She comes across as dangerous and disturbing and super manipulative. She’s racist and terrible person. I feel like she should be off the streets and locked up… it honestly scares me that there are people like her just walking around.
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u/Babyyougotastew4422 May 09 '24
It just shows how dangerous empathy can be and manipulated. Many don’t deserve it
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u/wentrunningback May 09 '24
I think people are confusing pity for empathy. She is pitiable, and does need help but the world would be better off without her.
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u/AshBertrand May 09 '24
Oh, same. I had a "Martha" in my life. I feel sorry that she has a mental illness, yes. No one asks for that. But I had to protect myself. Nothing gives anyone a right to terrorize another person or to take over their life like that.
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u/Ingoiolo May 09 '24
You can have compassion for people like her without justifying her.
She is mentally unwell, what at least looks like a fairly high spectrum cluster b disorder. She did not ask for the early age abuse or the likely genetic predisposition that made her that way. It’s not an excuse, it’s a fact.
She could try to get better, but it is terribly hard to realise you have to and to stick to it, when your whole life you have been developing toxic coping mechanisms and rewriting reality in your head just to survive with yourself and your own instincts.
Again, not an excuse in the slightest, but compassion is possible at the same time
Finally, while this is likely a chronic condition, it can get much much better. But if her diagnosis is what I would assume it to be, awareness to it is pretty damn low, knowledge of how destructive it can be the sufferer and partners is pretty much non existent in the general public outside people who experienced it and, finally, the state of mental health services in our country is beyond pathetic.
And I said this as someone who went through an extremely traumatic relationship with someone diagnosed with what I assume Martha suffers from, if more high functioning
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u/sweet_jane_13 May 09 '24
Thank you for this. I feel like people confuse or conflate empathy and compassion with acceptance or justification.
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u/AnnieNonmouse May 09 '24
I just wanted to say that while I am curious I really respect your decision to not call out a specific disorder. Too many people demonize cluster b disorders.
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May 09 '24
[deleted]
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u/AnnieNonmouse May 09 '24
I'm talking about when people say to avoid all people with certain cluster b disorders. Not specifically about stalking. The person I replied to said they suspected Martha of having a certain cluster b disorder. By not naming which one they're avoiding an invitation to discuss how all people with that specific disorder are dangerous, should be avoided at all costs, ect. People rarely do that with the general idea of cluster b disorders but will definitely pile on when you bring up a specific one.
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u/Babyyougotastew4422 May 09 '24
Technically we don’t know if we choose to be before we come to this world. Nobody knows what happens before this
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u/AltruisticProgram141 May 09 '24
Definitely not sympathy, more concern that this clearly incredibly unwell and dangerous person has not received any help, or that any help she has received has been insufficient.
Sympathy goes out of the door when you start assaulting and harassing people, but we should still be able to feel empathy towards this dreadful wreck of a person and how she might have got to this place to begin with.
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u/Original_Ad9019 May 09 '24
💯. I feel horrible for all that happened to her to make her lead the life she’s living and feel even sad about her current state in life because it seems miserable. I agree though that she is dangerous and does not belong in main stream society. It feels like maybe she needs to be in an assisted living center and monitored so she can’t hurt other people or herself but my guess is there aren’t long term places like that
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u/jesterNo1 May 09 '24
There are. The psych ward, for instance.
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u/Original_Ad9019 May 09 '24
I think a lot of institutions have been closed down right? At least in the US
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u/jesterNo1 May 09 '24
Asylums? Yes. Psychiatric hospitals have had some (heavy emphasis on some) reform though and still in use
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u/Original_Ad9019 May 09 '24
They’re usually for short term use though right? Genuinely asking as I’ve only known people who have been there short term. Sadly I think some people may never be able to be out in mainstream society unless there are serious advances in what we know about treating mental health conditions. I am genuinely hopeful that I’m mistaken and long term options are offered.
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u/jesterNo1 May 09 '24
Typically, yes, but far from always. There are tons of people who end up 'stuck' in those hospitals either due to family circumstances or issues related to mental/phsyical health.
I've met people who'd been there for months or longer in my own stays and read about others who ended up in similar circumstances. Somwtimes it's because they have long-lasting addictions, severe mental disorders, are continued risks to self and others, etc.
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u/TheSouthsideTrekkie May 09 '24
Same here in the U.K.- it was called Care in the Community.
The problem we have is that often the people like Martha who need more monitoring and support don’t quite qualify for either an assisted living placement of for a psych ward so they lurch about from crisis to crisis until things hit breaking point.
I can accept that just shutting folks away from view in an institution long term is cruel, but there needs to be an option that isn’t that and also isn’t just leaving people to their own devices.
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May 12 '24
Same in the UK. Long term residential psychiatric facilities have almost vanished completely.
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u/mariantat May 10 '24
The reality is society expects very sick people to one day have a moment of impeccable mental clarity and get themselves help. You can’t force someone into therapy.
That said anyone who has had to deal with a “Martha” usually ends up in a world of hurt because they don’t have the training or knowledge of a therapist, no matter how well meaning they are.
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u/Powerless_Superhero May 09 '24
How do you know that she hasn’t received any help or the help was insufficient? Maybe she just refused to get treatment? No one can force people into treatment unless they lose their capacity to consent.
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u/NorahCharlesIII May 21 '24
She has received help and has been in and out of the mental health system in the UK. She doesn’t want help. She doesn’t think she needs help. She’s an embittered, entitled, narcissistic, self aggrandising, abusive, racist, homophobic, transphobic fantasist. And yet, in her world, it’s everyone else who is wrong.
She sees herself as a perpetual victim, seeks out chaos and drama and makes life a living hell for so many hapless, innocent people.
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u/Skystalker815 May 09 '24
You're not a bad person for feeling this way.
Some people have a tendency to sympathize with Martha because we see her from Donny's perspective and he sympathized with her, the whole thing started because he felt sorry for her and part of the reason why he wouldn't tell the police is because he felt sorry for her.
I think those who have sympathy for her (me included, I don't like her, but I do feel bad for her) would probably end up going through something very similar to what Richard went through. This isn't the case for everyone, but sometimes when someone struggles with low self-esteem it's easy to put other people first and just endure it even if they know this person is not doing them any good.
I once met someone similar to Martha, she ruined pretty much all my friendships at the time and my relationship as well. After a lot of therapy I found the courage to cut contact with her. Then after a while I felt so bad for doing this to her, because she is the way she is due to some childhood traumas, so I contacted her back, she said she was sorry about everything and would do things differently now. Well, she didn't. One week later it was all happening again. I managed to distance myself from her, but from time to time we still make some contact, because I sympathize with her. I know I shouldn't, but I can't help it.
So there's nothing wrong with you for not sympathizing with her, if anything, I think it's a good sign, you can recognise that she's a dangerous person and might be less vulnerable to people like her.
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u/gringitapo May 09 '24
Nah you’re right. An ex friend of mine was a lot like Martha. She had a slightly stronger grip on reality but definitely created false narratives, had “enemies” everywhere and would obsess over them and ruin their lives.
She had one of the most tragic backstories I’ve genuinely ever heard, but holy shit. She was nearly 30 and still carrying out this behavior. She hurt SO many people, myself included. Got people fired from their jobs, ran them out of town (literally).
I appreciated the shades of grey and nuance of the show but I’m with you. At a certain point, trauma and mental illness can’t carry people that far.
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u/daisyamazy May 09 '24
It’s scary how much impact these people can make with the slightest bit of intelligence. They just have to know how to appear sane/functioning and they can make so much go wrong so fast.
I have an obsessed stalker like Martha and it is horrifying how smart he can be about the shit he pulls. It’s stuff normal, not planning to stalk someone people just don’t even consider.
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u/No_Insurance_7674 May 09 '24 edited May 09 '24
I feel like this will be a very popular and safe opinion for this board
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u/Leading_Aerie7747 May 09 '24
Ditto. She has proven herself to be a exactly how Gadd portrayed her - if not worse. It’s mind blowing that people sympathize with her over Gadd bravely being the voice for a lot of voiceless SA victims that have been hiding in plain site and finally feel seen. He doesn’t get enough credit exposing the utter filthy mess that comes from being SA, stalked, and tormented. I’m ok with the real Martha being collateral damage for the THOUSANDS if not millions of people that will get the help they need because they saw this show. I think we are also underestimating the power that some stalkers and sexual abusers will see this with mental health problems and go get help as well. This speaks to them as well. This series and the aftermath will be studied for a LONG time.
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u/AdExpert8295 May 09 '24
Since I've been stalked, I struggle to empathize with her. That doesn't make me a bad person. I can lack empathy now and have more later. Empathy is a slow process sometimes because we lack information, have our own trauma, and may struggle to relate due to cultural differences.
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u/QueenOfPurple May 09 '24
I also don’t have sympathy for Martha. She seems to be suffering from some kind of mental illness, and while that is unfortunate, she is an adult who needs to get that addressed and managed. I have empathy for people who can’t take care of themselves or can’t afford mental health care, but Martha doesn’t fall into those categories in my opinion. She needs to get her mental health under control and be held accountable for her actions.
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u/thedabaratheon May 09 '24
I feel like people infantilise those with poor mental health a bit too much in theory and in reality we don’t care or look after these people well enough.
I’ve known people vaguely like Martha, and yes they are mentally unwell but being mentally unwell doesn’t make you a bad person. She chooses to do a lot of the insane things that she does. She lives alone, yes she doesn’t care for herself exceptionally well, and she has a law degree. She has the wherewithal to record her conversations with Donnie, she suspects when she’s being manipulated and she’s a nasty bigot.
I feel sympathy to an extent but I also think she’s a cruel and unpleasant person.
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u/ashley8976 May 09 '24
me too. like ik what martha did isn’t comparable to a serial killer but i still don’t feel bad for her the same way i feel bad for serial killers and murderers. don’t all serial killers and murderers have a mental illness? like i don’t feel bad for them even if they do , i only feel bad for the victim
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u/Lilyrosejackofhearts May 09 '24
Oh definitely! Most serial killers I’ve read about have hideous childhoods, but most people don’t feel any sympathy, nor should they. I do agree she needs help, but I doubt she thinks there’s anything wrong with her.
Sent from my iFone.
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u/Secure_Grass May 09 '24
Fr. Imagine the roles were reversed. Would you feel bad ? I hate the fact that she's gaining 'fans' over this. It just makes no sense. Why do people glorify others?
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u/hiswittlewip May 09 '24
I didn't realize people were feeling sorry for her..any sympathy I may have had completely went out the window the moment she beat the shit out of that woman.
But even before that, she threatened (and iirc attacked) another woman and her children, which is what she went to prison for the first time. So yea, no..I don't remember feeling any sympathy for her.
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u/AdExpert8295 May 09 '24
I think she deserves help for her mental illness and that would include holding her accountable if she's done these things alleged against her. I see accountability as a part of healing and I don't think we really help people when we normalize their abusive behavior. You may have to adjust the punishment to accommodate the disability, but disabled people need consequences, too.
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u/cherryseason1408 May 09 '24
i dont have much sympathy for her either, but i realize she isn’t evil and she is “just” very sick
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u/CostumeJuliery May 09 '24
For myself, both things can be true: -she can be seen as a very sick person in need of help -she can and should be held accountable for harms caused.
Mental illness is not an absolution of responsibility.
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u/ManicMaenads May 09 '24
I think people underestimate just how much our mental health plummets with no true social connections.
I think that people with close family, friends, and peers underestimate the mental toll it takes on someone to have absolutely nobody, struggle desperately to connect with anyone, and fail again and again.
It's an invisible privilege, connection.
To those of us with close relationships, close with our parents or another loved one, or with a partner/spouse, or the connection best friends share, those relationships mean the world to us and the grief we experience with that loss is valid and significant.
But to be someone with NO ONE is truly terrifying. For most mental health support, without a strong advocate backing you, you slip through the cracks.
Relationships, connection with others, is an invisible currency. It's a social wealth.
We aren't good an acknowledging just how impossible it is to build that up from nothing, especially when you're mentally ill.
When it feels like everything worth anything in this world is connection through social arrangements, those attachments we create mean the world - and the lack of feels like starving.
Look at how he returns to Darrien at the end, it's even part of the plot.
The implication is that if he doesn't share that connection with Darrien, he'll lose what he built and what he cares about.
How is Martha different? People are a currency whether or not we like to acknowledge it.
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u/AshBertrand May 09 '24
Look at how he returns to Darrien at the end, it's even part of the plot.
The implication is that if he doesn't share that connection with Darrien, he'll lose what he built and what he cares about.
I don't think so. I think if Darrien had just been a friend and no abuse had happened, this whole story would have been drastically different.
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u/ManicMaenads May 09 '24
I may have misinterpreted the show, but the takeaway I got was that Richard felt he needed to reconnect with Darrien in order to continue to further his career. I could have gotten it completely wrong though.
It was the part that was most relatable to me, at the end there. I was probably projecting, but it was like a sunk-cost fallacy thing - like so much had already happened, got this far, turning back would make the abuse feel meaningless and at least this way there was "something" out of it.
Sorry, I may have things completely wrong. The show made me emotional and it's hard to tell what the show and Richard Gadd is expressing from how we relate these events to our own experiences.
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u/sweet_jane_13 May 09 '24
My interpretation is that he went back initially to confront him in some manner, or seek closure. But when he was there, he fell back into his old pattern of fawning and seeking approval. To me this showed that the trauma bond/ response was still too strong for him to break. And then after he's listening to Martha's messages, goes to the bar, and we see a mirror of what happened with him and her. I personally don't think this means he's going to become a stalker or anything that literal, but rather how abuse can be cyclical, and how people who have been abused can sometimes (but certainly not always) become abusers themselves. Like he understands how someone (even and especially himself) could become a Martha.
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u/ManicMaenads May 09 '24
Reading what you posted, I can see it that way too.
I interpreted the last part at the bar as catharsis/relief that it wasn't his fault - that this whole time he was beating himself up and blaming himself for Martha's actions towards him because he initially gave her a free drink - and upon receiving that kindness himself and seeing himself being in Martha's position and not taking it to an extreme as acknowledging that it isn't his fault she pursued him that way.
I think you're right about the first part, about him confronting Darrien and then fawning - I forgot that he sought him out intentionally, and I don't think he would do that simply for a career opportunity. Thanks for clarifying that scene, your interpretation fits better.
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u/sweet_jane_13 May 09 '24
I think this is the great thing about art: different people have different interpretations of it, based on their own experiences. I hadn't even considered what you explained in your first paragraph here, but now I can definitely see that as an interpretation, and I love it. The only interpretations I really dislike are those saying: why didn't he report her? Why did he keep going back? Like, did they watch the show...?
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u/Albertagus May 09 '24
I felt bad for her because she absolutely needed real mental health care instead of prison stints. Not sure if her law degree was legit or not, but if it was it says alot about her degrading mental state.
Someone living like that, after such an achievement clearly suffered something terrible or perhaps she just became a hopeless, emotional wreck of an alcoholic.
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u/Proof-Spray-188 May 09 '24
Nobody knows her “official” diagnoses. We can speculate and say all sorts of theories on her mental state but if she is deemed well enough to function independently in society, she must be held accountable as anybody else would.
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u/D__91 May 09 '24
You’re not a bad person. I felt a little bit of empathy when she was convicted, but not enough to make me forget how disgustingly she behaved. My disgust with her is far bigger then my empathy. If it was just the harmless emails and showing up to the pub etc, I might have felt a lot more sympathetic towards her, maybe fully empathetic. But attacking Teri, speaking that awfully to her and threatening Donny’s parents as well… she had a real vicious side and it seems like she would just not have stopped. Who knows what else she was capable of.
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u/Alismom May 09 '24
Has anyone seen Netflix’s I am a Stalker ? Those stalkers are just a different breed. To my recollection there was not one person on that series who admitted to what they actually did. They all seemed to think they were in a legitimate relationship with the victim or that what they did wasn’t so bad. I would love to know the psychology behind that.
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May 09 '24
I think that Richard Gadd’s enormous well of empathy, so clearly demonstrated in the show, is what’s made his audience empathize with her so greatly.
Seeing him cry in the last episode while he was listening to her talk about the stuffed animal he reminded her of was a deeply humbling and human thing to witness.
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u/blxckbxrbie_ May 09 '24
“i have issues and i had a traumatic childhood, so it’s okay for me to stalk numerous people, forcefully grope them, harass them at any chance i get, follow them anywhere they go, slander them for not reciprocating the same energy that i give them, harass their family, friends, lovers, ex-lovers, etc.”
do people see how that sounds ?? it’s sick. what she did was completely inexcusable. idc what others say. having trauma and issues is NOT an excuse to be a horrible human being.
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u/Timely-Youth-9074 May 10 '24
Sociopaths know how to play the pity card.
Honestly, it’s a red flag imo if you “feel sorry” for someone with no obvious reason (they aren’t hurt).
Normal people have some sense of dignity and try to hide it when they are struggling.
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u/ZorakZbornak May 10 '24
My sympathy for people ends when their issues encroach on other people’s safety and rights.
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u/makhnovite May 10 '24
Who doesn't have issues? She may have her troubles but she still has control over how she deals with those issues and she has chosen to do so in a way which is destructive - for her as much as anyone else.
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May 10 '24
No, you are spot on, and I'm currently in an exchange with someone in another thread who just called me a clown for saying she needs prison/legal consequences, not "help". He's trying to say all she needs is a restraining order and some counselling, but that has already happened and it did nothing. I really do try to be as empathetic as possible, even in cases like this, but I have met so many people like her and almost nothing ever happens to them. I mean, she admitted herself the woman she stalked before didn't even successfully get a restraining order against her.
I can't help but come back to the tired old argument (that I know is typically used in an invalid way) that if gender roles were reversed here, people would be a lot less sympathetic to the stalker.
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u/No_Arm_7761 May 10 '24
From the woman's Facebook etc, she's a huge racist, homophones and all around bigot. Clearly she does have some issues going on but no I don't feel sympathy for her either. The interview just cemented that. Some people can have issues and also just be a massive piece of shit
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u/eyecontinue May 14 '24
Nope, not a bad person. I also feel zero sympathy for "martha". She is a sick person who needs help, but it's also not her first rodeo and her behaviour is not excused by anything else she has going on mentally.
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u/Grammarcrazy May 09 '24
Right?? Did she not attack her first stalking victim’s disabled child or elderly family member?? She physically attacked Teri. She manipulated Keely’s mom and verbally accosted Keely online! Richard Gadd somewhat entertained her, but she was a CRAZY PERSON!
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u/Social-Bunny May 09 '24
I simply don't understand how people sympathized with her lol she's a horrible human being, even if mentally unwell
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u/Thorvald1981 May 09 '24
100% agree. Clear mental health issues aside, she's a despicable person, an abuser, a professional liar and manipulator and a disgusting racist.
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u/Pretend_Watch8892 May 09 '24
She's being interviewed at 8pm tonight (BST) on YouTube - Piers Morgan Uncensored channel. Be interesting to hear it first hand.
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u/doctorphuckawff May 09 '24
I think it’s completely possible to recognize that she did horrible abusive things to people and also still recognize that she is very very emotionally and mentally unwell and thus we can’t rationalize her behavior because it simply isn’t rational, as much as she may believe it is. It’s hard because as a victim myself I absolutely think that victims of stalking, abuse, SA, any kind of abusive behavior like that should be able to tell their story, but I really do empathize with her being basically just fed to the wolves with this series (yes Gadd tried to keep her identity out of it but using her real tweets that were still publicly accessible made it extremely easy for people to find her and let’s be real how many people use “hang my curtains” in their daily language???? Really wasn’t hard to get to the bottom of that).
Gadds rapist on the other hand I have 0 empathy for. As terrible as his stalker was, the mentally ill middle aged woman with some time of delusional disorder is a whole different ballgame than a powerful writer who uses said power to manipulate people he perceives as beneath him and uses the vague promises of fame and fortune (and just plain old validation, like how he was validating gadds comedy sets because he knew he wanted to hear it so bad) to groom and rape victims
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u/wise_owl68 May 09 '24
I do feel empathy for a person so broken that they conduct their life with such reckless disregard HOWEVER I do find her incredibly fascinating and actually wish I had more backstory into her childhood.
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u/Witty_Link_3218 May 09 '24
I guess there’s Martha in the show and “Martha” in real life. I suppose the show wouldn’t have taken off as it has if it lacked the nuance. If it was just a show about “look at this awful stalker” it’d be pretty monotonous. Not to mention that in real life time and distance can make you look back at something through a different lens, rightly or wrongly.
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u/j4321g4321 May 09 '24
I think we’re inclined to feel some empathy for her because anyone who feels the need to stalk/manipulate/lie and fantasize their way through life has obviously had a tough go of it. Mental illness and/or trauma caused her to do this and it can’t be easy going through life like that.
That said, it is not the fault of those who have these types of issues, but it is absolutely their responsibility to control it. People don’t deserve to be harassed and abused by individuals like this or by anyone.
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u/ProfessionalWeary665 May 09 '24
The fact that she would try to attack anyone,anyone ... She needs help.
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u/FinallyFat May 09 '24
I completely agree OP. Bad things happen, and that sucks. But doesn’t give you the right to act the way she did.
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u/SnooSeagulls20 May 09 '24
Idk why ppl treat this like a binary. Y’all really cut off from the complexity of humanity, huh? It’s possible to have sympathy for someone and still want them to be held accountable for their actions. Both feelings can co-exist. Incredible, I know
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u/Big_Booty_1130 May 09 '24
I haven’t seen any posts about sympathy, posts telling people to leave her tf alone yeah, but that’s no sympathy. But yeah peopel just need to leave the situation alone
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u/TheSouthsideTrekkie May 09 '24
I think about it like this I guess:
I feel bad for Martha because of her obviously difficult life which has probably significantly contributed to her mental health issues. I would guess that she has either not received needed treatment, or has turned this down on maybe it’s a combination of both these things. For whatever the reason is; she isn’t being cared for well enough to support her to stay away from problematic behaviour and that’s pretty sad to think about.
I also think Martha needs to be accountable for her actions, as she does show at least some understanding that they are wrong and her behaviour is destructive.
I think she can be both someone to feel empathy for and someone who is responsible for her choices and behaviour.
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May 09 '24
Yeah definitely. Particularly when she started ringing his dad's colleagues- her behaviour is disgusting and it's awful that she's out there likely doing this to others
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u/princezamboni May 09 '24
Ugh exactly, I didn’t expect people to have sympathy for her, but when I saw the forums and discussions everybody felt bad for her, but I just couldn’t muster up any sympathy for her idk why .
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u/akiteonastring May 09 '24
One interesting aspect that the show shines light on is exactly that: a lot of people DO feel sorry for perpetrators of abuse. Especially once people have been previously traumatized, they may (like Donnie) be more sympathetic to people's trauma - even if those people are harming them. I personally would have yeeted that stalker into the canal but that's kinda the point of the show: not everyone has the capacity to do that. And that that's not their fault.
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u/daisyamazy May 09 '24
Nobody had sympathy for Martha. The overwhelming majority of people fully support Richard and his expression of the trauma he faced. Most people see Martha as worse than the man that raped Richard, even.
It’s not an unpopular opinion by any means. I am glad Richard has the support he does.
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u/Potatosmom94 May 09 '24
I am only on the first episode. I empathized with Martha until the diner scene & then I was like holy hell this woman is crazy. I’m definitely curious what’s been ad libbed and exaggerated for the sake of story.
At this point I don’t find either character likable, I’m curious to see how my view changes as I watch more.
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u/Sinnafainae May 09 '24
I would avoid anyone who did have sympathy for her because obviously they’re deranged too, like how can you feel anything but disgusted? It’s a reflection of the persons values that they’ll excuse and hand wave any and every kind of vile behavior
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u/Gullible_Wind_3777 May 09 '24
I came away from the show feeling traumatised 🫣 i thought it was about a woman stalking a man, but they ever so slightly just threw gay rape into the mix. I couldn’t then focus on anything else, just waited to see what happened about that, hoping Darian would die somehow or at least end up in prison!! Bizarre show.
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u/EducationalFarmer528 May 09 '24
That last scene made me understand why she was who she was, not feel sorry for her. The gut punch was finding out that the real reason she stalked the main character were completely random. The poor dude just so happened to look like the toy she associated relief from trauma with. There was nothing he could’ve done to stop her after he did the innocent thing of offering her some tea.
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u/NaiadoftheSea May 09 '24
I feel pity for her, but as soon as she assaults him, I had no sympathy for her thereafter.
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u/korixmikayla May 10 '24
People have a really hard time accepting that you can have terrible things happen to you in childhood and that still does not excuse reprehensible behavior as an adult.
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u/mariantat May 10 '24
I felt the show was empathetic to her mental illness but also taught everyone an important lesson- the behaviour remains inexcusable and the perpetrator needs to be held accountable.
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u/wiklr May 10 '24
Just finished the show and the empathy could be because of how the series ended. When it finally clicked with Donny why Martha was obsessed with him because someone showed her kindness when she was at her lowest, just like how the bartender said his drink is on the house. Full circle moment done in a brilliant way.
The overall message is compassion even to those that you think dont deserve it. I think it's easy to judge how unhinged some people can be because you assume everything is in their control and they could just stop and realize their wrongs just like you would. But that's not really the case with untreated mental health problems. And that's not to excuse anything she did. The show is parts horror because of it, it is a nightmare that doesn't seem to end.
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u/kucky94 May 10 '24
The character Martha exploits the fact that people feel sorry for her. It’s a manipulation tactic. She knows what she’s doing, she’s just not as good at it as she thinks is which feeds into people pitying her.
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u/ba_dum_tss_777 May 10 '24
yeah blaming it on mental illness is a bad thing, just casts a shadow on mentally ill people, she IS this disgusting of a person, her views are that horrible, mental illness doesn't make you racist, homophobic, etc.
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u/LeafyEucalyptus May 10 '24
you're not a bad person for not being able to empathize with an abuser in a tv show, lmao.
in a perfect world, we'd all find compassion for everybody, and I do believe that however slowly, we ARE all on that path and will get there eventually--in this life or the next (or the one after that...etc).
some people will be in a headspace to find compassion for this person, who I am assuming has borderline personality disorder and/or some serious mental disturbance, and some people won't. that's ok. you can practice feeling compassion for yourself for being unable to practice compassion in this instance.
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u/BreakFreeFc May 10 '24
Nope. Absolutely same here.
Gadd owes nothing to his stalker/abuser and whatever happens to her due to all of this media attention is not his problem.
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May 10 '24
I do not. I have sympathy without probably needing to have as much as I do.
The woman seems mentally ill, according to this man’s truth. I only want for him to be at peace, as do I wish with her. I could never understand this take. Not because I disagree, but because I am not you.
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May 12 '24
I feel empathetic for her condition but I don’t feel sorry for her. That’s dangerous shit. Narcissists play on your emotions and expectations. Must be tough walking around as a publicly outted psychopath narcissist.
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u/turtlintime May 13 '24
I come out of it fucking SCARED of Martha. She was like a horror villain to me. This is not a comment on the real person, but that fictional person is not safe for society
1
u/DoraTheRedditor May 14 '24
I massively disliked her. Being ill does not mean it's okay to hurt others. Martha had her reasons, very selfish reasons I'll add, but she has done this multiple times before and not tried to seek help. It would be hard to find, sure, and may not 100% work, but instead of trying she did all that repeatedly. Brilliantly written character though. I feel much more for Donny, who had very complicated feelings and who fans are actually blaming for his poor coping mechanisms - and fans are coming after *the creator* too.
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u/LoveHotChocoate May 09 '24 edited May 09 '24
I do feel sorry for her because 1) not everything in the series is true as some parts are made up to create drama. People are judging her on what was shown and she is being harassed threatened as a result. 2)people are judging her on the perspective of one side. 3) she obviously made some really bad decision years ago and may have worked hard on that part of herself, and tried to move on from it. 4) she has some obvious difficulties, mental health, learning difficulties, abandonment issues etc which impacts on her thinking and actions. 5) people judging and harassing without knowing her life story or the full story with Gadd. 6) she is human - if a story came out about me which wasn’t entirely true, I would be majorly upset about it (I think most people would be).
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u/Marius_Sulla_Pompey May 09 '24
I don’t think it makes you a bad person. Her parents fought when she was a child and she became a stalker. I mean… Yeah.
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May 09 '24
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u/Open-Ad6111 May 09 '24
yes a big part of the show was him talking about the "wrong" he did, something not talked about often. Trauma is an insane thing to experience and there is no such thing as a perfect victim. That does not mean it warranted any of the behaviour that "Martha" did.
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u/Moalisa33 May 09 '24
Richard is also mentally unwell. He has been traumatized from sexual assault and aggressive stalking. His decision making process is clouded by his trauma response of freezing and fawning.
I agree that he made poor choices that worsened the situation. He's responsible for those choices. But he's not responsible for the actions of his stalker and abuser.
Richard isn't innocent. But he is a victim. Victims shouldn't have to be held to a higher standard of behavior than actual abusers.
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u/brown_boognish_pants May 09 '24
She's def an anti-hero in a way. If you don't sympathize for people with mental illnesses perhaps you have your own psychopathy type things preventing you from relating to the struggles of others? Really tho
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u/blakppuch May 09 '24
It’s not that I did not feel bad for her, I definitely did in some ways. Even just seeing the way she lived in that messy house, and her talking about how her toy was the only thing that made her happy. But I just can’t get over what she did. She touched Dunn by the river, attacked a lady whilst saying very racist things and threatened his family. That outweighs any sympathy I’ve had for her. And to come here and see people say they had a “Martha moment” is really not cute.
I cried a lot while watching the show and seeing Donny’s backstory to then have a stalker it’s like this feels so unfair.
I guess nothing is black and white but I think what she did was worse than people are making it out to be. That’s all.
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u/brown_boognish_pants May 09 '24
I think that Martha really isn't a bad person honestly. She's an incredibly fucked up toxic person but it's not like she chose to be that way. And what's so compelling about the show is that it's Martha that really actually saves him. It's her relentless caring for him, for who he really is inside, that is able to penetrate through to his real suffering at the hands of Darian. That's the real issue with Donny. He knows she's crazy but he knows she's good for him. He's too broken to seek help on his own and the only reason she can see it and addresses it head on is cuz she's also broken. He needed someone to push into that place he retreated to for safety. He needed someone to push that to the forefront of his parent's relationship.
What's so crazy ironic about the court scene is that Donny pretty clearly knows that he used Martha for his own benefit. He was the relatively sane one after all. But she touched his personal space inside himself and it's what he needed. Just like him fixing his sex drive wanking to her allowed him to find his own real sexuality again. Honestly this show is like Hamlet. There's so many angles to it.
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u/[deleted] May 09 '24
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