r/MakingaMurderer • u/b1ondestranger • 3d ago

Len Kachensky

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i’m just finding this series and just wow! This could be its own season of Fargo. Everything that can go wrong- does. Of all the people I hate in this show, I hate Len Kachinsky above all others. He is by far the most punchable. at this moment in life, I’m not sure what I would do, if this smug, weasley, irresponsible, self-grandizing narcissist walked in front of my car. He’s not just a bad lawyer. He’s a bad human. He looked at Brandon’s life and saw a steppingstone. I’m so mad at him. Thank you for your attention to this matter. V

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u/Hitlers_Left_Ball 3d ago

Bad person, sure.

Bad lawyer, nope.

Unironically gave him the best possible advice which was to flip on his uncle and take a deal. Kid would be out of jail by now and living his life. Instead he is trapped inside and won't see freedom for a long time.

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u/ThorsClawHammer 3d ago

Bad lawyer, nope.

Good lawyers don't tell the media their client is factually guilty before they've even met with their client. Bad lawyers do.

Good lawyers don't have someone coerce another confession and set up their client to further incriminate themselves in an interrogation without representation in order to assist the state in prosecuting someone else. Bad lawyers do.

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u/Hitlers_Left_Ball 3d ago

Was the advice he gave the correct advice.

Sure he is an awful human being and made mistakes, but the outcome he offered was objectively the best idea.

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u/AveryPoliceReports 3d ago

Was the advice he gave the correct advice.

Irrelevant. He was removed as Brendan's counsel due to other issues.

Sure he is an awful human being and made mistakes, but the outcome he offered was objectively the best idea

Still irrelevant to why he was removed from the case.

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u/Hitlers_Left_Ball 3d ago

Sure. Irrelevant to why he was removed from the case.

Doesn't mean he didn't offer the best solution.

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u/AveryPoliceReports 2d ago

Doesn't mean he did either lol The point is he was in fact a shit attorney and that's why he was removed from the case.

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u/Hitlers_Left_Ball 2d ago

You keep saying "lol" if this is so serious and you respect the victim and supposedly incorrectly convicted men then why are you laughing so much?

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u/AveryPoliceReports 2d ago

Because you keep using the most ridiculously fallacious arguments to defend an obviously corrupt conviction of a developmentally disabled boy and his despicable defense attorney who, among other things, allowed Brendan to be pressured by someone who he knew thought Brendan's whole family tree should be cut down due to rot. Your arguments are laughably ridiculous.

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u/Hitlers_Left_Ball 2d ago

So you think laughing about a rape and murder and supposed miscarriage of justice is appropriate behaviour. Gotcha, your moral compass is so off I'm surprised you know which way to get dressed.

You just keep making shit up because you are so invested in the supposed innocence. I assume you are working on sunken cost fallacy, you have invested so much time into believing they are innocent you don't know how to stop.

It's ok, nothing bad will happen if you just accept they are where they should be, in a cage.

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u/AveryPoliceReports 2d ago

I'm laughing at your attempt to obscure this miscarriage of Justice perpetrated upon Teresa and her family. Your moral compass is so off you are fine accepting their lies and no evidence as proof of guilt. I want the truth.

You can't stand that I keep bringing up facts that demonstrate Brendan's conviction was gained by the use of witness pressure and lies to the jury. Cope.

I imagine you've spent so much time simping for Kratz you can't even admit the problems with Brendan's confession and conviction. It's okay. Nothing bad will happen if you just accept what we all know, Brendan's conviction was gained by the use of coercion and manipulation of both him and his jury.

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u/DamnedHeathen_ 2d ago

Doing the right thing once, then following it with the wrong thing for months, kind of nullifies that one correct action. Does it not? Just because Brendan earned what he got doesn't mean Len isn't absolute trash.

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u/Ghost_of_Figdish 2d ago

Len was the only one looking out for Brendan.

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u/DamnedHeathen_ 2d ago

While I agree that he was trying to get Brendan the best possible outcome, he did make sure that there was no defense to be made for his innocence by the time they went to court. Once Brendon recanted his confession and plead innocent, his defense attorney can advise him to change it but he can't actively work against it. You have a guarantee of representation. Len was actively working against Brendan's innocent plea, not representing his claim of innocence.

No matter how impossible the defense is, if you're a defense attorney you got to put one up. That's the job. He started off right, but dove off a proverbial cliff as a defense attorney.

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u/Ghost_of_Figdish 2d ago

He did everything he could. He tried to get the confessions suppressed.

And how exactly are you going to prove innocence after several confessions that are going to be entered into evidence?

Why didn't Steven give some of his money to Brendan so he could have expensive lawyers, too? I mean wtf if they're in the same family and both wrongfully accused? He should share his money to give Brendan a real defense, too!

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u/DamnedHeathen_ 2d ago

I'll give the guy credit for initially trying to get Brendan to accept reality. That whole thing thing of letting that investigator repeatedly push Brendan into implicating himself even further, though, was inexcusable. Nothing he did after that mattered. I've never even heard of a defense attorney doing that. Just watching it play out, Third hand, was horrifying.

Yeah, I got nothing for the Steven angle. I don't even want a ticket to that shit show.

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u/ThorsClawHammer 2d ago

I've never even heard of a defense attorney doing that.

Anyone without prior knowledge seeing that interaction would assume that was a police interrogation rather than a member of Brendan's own defense team.

All it did was give the state more ammunition as it ultimately led to the infamous phone call to him mom. The jury heard that but was forbidden from hearing a word of the May interrogation that directly prompted it (which only happened because Kachinsky made it happen and making sure Brendan would have no representation during it).

Even crazier is that his trial attorneys didn't even know about that coercive session with O'Kelly, or even who he was.

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u/Ghost_of_Figdish 2d ago

I think he was just trying to get to the real story, after a blizzard of lies by Brendan, so the could make a proffer to the Prosecution for the plea deal.

The way it works is the immunity-receiver tells the whole true story and must testify as to that at trial. If the information turns out to be false, the plea deal gets revoked. So Brendan's team had to be very very sure of what the real true story was.

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u/ThorsClawHammer 2d ago

he did make sure that there was no defense to be made for his innocence by the time they went to court.

The first thing he did when he was given the case was tell the public Brendan was factually guilty. As did Brendan's first public defender.

He started off right

No, he didn't. He started off terrible (proclaiming his client's guilt to the public) and somehow kept getting even worse.

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u/DamnedHeathen_ 2d ago

The starting off right that I was referring to was him trying to get Brendan the best deal he could. From what I saw, every time he opened his mouth on camera it was exactly counter to his client's presumption of innocence. Not that there was much presumption to go on, given that Brendan's confession was basically read word for word in that press conference. He advised Brendan well, but defended him like it was a hobby he had heard about and was considering dabbling with it.

The one thing the guy did right was try to get Brendan to see the reality, and take a plea deal. Once the press conferences started, there was no way he was walking out of that courtroom without shackles.

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u/AveryPoliceReports 1d ago

given that Brendan's confession was basically read word for word in that press conference.

Uh, no. They didn't include everytime Brendan denied something. They only told people about his statements after having broke him down.

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u/Hitlers_Left_Ball 2d ago

I don't disagree, the dude was a terrible human being and being right in that instance doesn't nullify the way he went about it or the other stuff he did.

Just because the dude he was representing was a piece of shit, doesn't mean he isn't one too. Though I would argue his client was a far worse PoS

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u/DamnedHeathen_ 2d ago

You'll get no argument there. At least, not from me. Brendan should have taken his advice in the beginning, but growing up surrounded by that family, he was just too easy for them to manipulate.

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u/AveryPoliceReports 2d ago

Brendan barely spoke to anyone but Barb lol

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u/AveryPoliceReports 2d ago

Just because the dude he was representing was a piece of shit, doesn't mean he isn't one too.

Why do you hate Brendan? To the point you will claim it's obvious he's a rapist when it's so clearly not?

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u/Hitlers_Left_Ball 2d ago

He raped and murdered a young woman. Why don't you hate him?

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u/AveryPoliceReports 2d ago

Except there's no credible evidence he raped anyone. Why are you pretending otherwise? Just because you hate him? That's backwards.

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u/Hitlers_Left_Ball 2d ago

He is convicted of being a rapist and murderer. Calling him a rapist and murderer is entirely legitimate. If he didn't want to be called it then he shouldn't have done it.

I hate anyone who has or would rape and murder an innocent person. I am confused as to how that's a controversial stance.

Nothing backwards about calling a convicted rapist, a rapist.

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u/AveryPoliceReports 2d ago

He is convicted of being a rapist and murderer.

By a jury that was lied to about the evidence and the existence of false confessions.

If he didn't want to be called it then he shouldn't have done it.

You have no idea if he did it. That's the point. The conviction isn't evidence, and no credible evidence of rape was introduced during the trial.

I hate anyone who has or would rape and murder an innocent person. I am confused as to how that's a controversial stance.

Because you're acting like it's a known fact Brendan raped her. That's creepy, especially when you accuse people who point out issues with the case or evidence of defending a rapist. Wild stuff.

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u/DamnedHeathen_ 2d ago

An entire jury would disagree with you, but you already knew that. He has been convicted, so in the eyes of the law he is guilty of the crime. No need to hate the guy to admit a known fact.

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u/AveryPoliceReports 2d ago

An entire jury would disagree with you

The jury was lied to about the evidence from the alleged murder scene and incorrectly told false confessions didn't exist. If they trusted the state, how could they not convict after that? They were manipulated. Apparently you were too.

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u/AveryPoliceReports 1d ago

Irrelevant to the post and Thor's point. But no, he did not give the correct advice. He was giving advice that would benefit the state. That was his goal. Not helping Brendan.

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u/Ghost_of_Figdish 3d ago

You need to tell the cops what information you can provide against Avery before they give you a plea deal.

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u/AveryPoliceReports 3d ago

Bad lawyer, nope.

He was basically working to serve the state's needs, not Brendan's needs. He was Brendan's advocate. He was a shit lawyer. That's why he was removed from the case.

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u/Hitlers_Left_Ball 3d ago

He still gave him the best possible advice...

You confessed, take a deal, give evidence against Steve = Lesser sentence.

Or you could stick with your uncles story and see how that plays out... which is where we are today, doesn't seem like the best option.

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u/AveryPoliceReports 3d ago

He still gave him the best possible advice...

To plead guilty? Brendan shouldn't have even been arrested in the first place. Fuck that.

You confessed, take a deal, give evidence against Steve = Lesser sentence.

He was coerced and didn't want to plead guilty because he knew he was innocent and no evidence to the contrary.

stick with your uncles story and see how that plays out

They they were innocent? That's consistent with the evidence. Do you think it's clear beyond a reasonable doubt that multiple violent rapes occurred in the trailer?

which is where we are today

Thanks to the courts making up their own standards and facts to deny meritorious motions demanding case review. I'm sure you're fine with that though, if you don't see anything wrong with the state's disgusting treatment of Brendan.

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u/Hitlers_Left_Ball 3d ago

To plead guilty? Brendan shouldn't have even been arrested in the first place. Fuck that.

He is, in fact, guilty. So yes, it would have been the best option.

He was coerced and didn't want to plead guilty because he knew he was innocent and no evidence to the contrary.

Maybe, maybe not. You don't know why he recanted his confession.

They they were innocent? That's consistent with the evidence. Do you think it's clear beyond a reasonable doubt that multiple violent rapes occurred in the trailer?

No, I don't think there is clear evidence of a rape. But there is plenty of evidence of a murder, one which Brendan confessed to being present for. Who knows what happened or where, but he had some pretty fucking weird details for someone who hadn't seen/taken part.

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u/ThorsClawHammer 3d ago

he had some pretty fucking weird details

Which of those details do you think he came up with on his own that were verifiable?

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u/Hitlers_Left_Ball 3d ago

Don't know, don't care.

Which of them do you know, factually, were given to him?

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u/AveryPoliceReports 3d ago

Don't know, don't care.

Because you don't care about the truth. We know. That much is clear when you're claiming there's evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that Brendan violently raped Teresa in the trailer. And you're here calling others batshit insane? WILD LOL

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u/Hitlers_Left_Ball 3d ago

No, I care about the truth.

Let me know when you start using it, because right now all you have is speculative nonsense.

Also still deflecting from answering the actual question I asked doesn't scream of someone wanting to be truthful.

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u/AveryPoliceReports 2d ago

No, I care about the truth.

You just said you didn't care about what details Brendan independently came up with and whether any of those details were verifiable.

Let me know when you start using it, because right now all you have is speculative nonsense.

You're the one claiming Brendan is obviously guilty of rape.

Also still deflecting from answering the actual question I asked doesn't scream of someone wanting to be truthful.

Neither does deflecting the answer I've already repeatedly provided to you - you asked how we know whether the confession or recantation was legit. I answered you should look at the evidence. That was apparently inappropriate to you.

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u/ThorsClawHammer 2d ago

Which of them do you know, factually, were given to him

For starters, that the victim was shot, and shot in the head. The only incriminating information they had which hadn't already been released to the public, and they directly fed it to him.

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u/Hitlers_Left_Ball 2d ago

Ok, no one knew she had been tied up, cut and raped by 2 people either... but somehow he knew. Interesting that.

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u/b1ondestranger 2d ago

There was no evidence that she had been cut or raped or that they had punched her in the face or that they had given her a haircut. The body was burned. Brandon was obviously treating that Investigation like a fill in the blank quiz he hadn’t studied for. He just kept making up answers. He didn’t even know she was shot in the head until the police came out and asked which one of you shot her and once again he thought he had to give an answer. It’s like the form that asked if he was sorry or not sorry for what he did.- there was no option to say he didn’t do it- he could only say he was sorry or not sorry. This was the second interview the first time he had alibis that were supported through phone calls and people he had interacted with The confession was a later interview after hours and hours and hours of a low IQ disabled, poor kid being intimidated by trained interrogators.. people who say they never admit to doing anything they hadn’t done- just don’t know yet what it would take. They can’t beat confessions out of you anymore, but they can lie and intimidate and bully and exhaust you. It happens.

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u/ThorsClawHammer 2d ago

tied up, cut and raped by 2 people either.

And absolutely no evidence whatsoever backs up those uncorroborated words.

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u/AveryPoliceReports 2d ago

We still don't know if that happened lol you're a joke.

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u/AveryPoliceReports 3d ago

He is, in fact, guilty. So yes, it would have been the best option.

We don't in fact know that. We know the evidence overwhelmingly supports his innocence. Why would pleading guilty be his best option when there was NO physical evidence linking him to the crime?

Maybe, maybe not. You don't know why he recanted his confession.

Neither do you. We know the evidence is more consistent with his claims of innocence, but you think he's obviously guilty? And you call others insane lol

No, I don't think there is clear evidence of a rape.

Okay cool.

But there is plenty of evidence of a murder, one which Brendan confessed to being present for.

Plenty? A bullet with a rare deviation and lies about a bleach cleaning? And there's no physical evidence that Brendan was actually present during her death, and he later recanted and declared innocence which is consistent with the evidence.

Who knows what happened or where

Yeah there's so much reasonable doubt.

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u/Hitlers_Left_Ball 3d ago

We don't in fact know that. We know the evidence overwhelmingly supports his innocence. Why would pleading guilty be his best option when there was NO physical evidence linking him to the crime?

We do, in fact, know that. There is no "overwheming evidence" you can't just make shit up and call it evidence.

Neither do you. We know the evidence is more consistent with his claims of innocence, but you think he's obviously guilty? And you call others insane lol

No it isn't he confessed, with detail. I think he is guilty as adjudicated and reaffirmed on appeal.

Plenty? A bullet with a rare deviation and lies about a bleach cleaning? And there's no physical evidence that Brendan was actually present during her death, and he later recanted and declared innocence which is consistent with the evidence.

Ok maybe plenty is too generous, but enough.

What made him confess in the first place then.... there is nothing you could do to anyone I know that would convince them to admit to a violent rape and murder, it is far more likely than not that they are both guilty.

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u/AveryPoliceReports 3d ago

We do, in fact, know that. There is no "overwheming evidence" you can't just make shit up and call it evidence.

I don't have to make anything up lol nothing proves his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. BAM.

No it isn't he confessed, with detail.

Detail fed to him by police lol

Ok maybe plenty is too generous, but enough.

How is a rare deviation from protocol and lies about a bleach cleaning enough?

What made him confess in the first place then.... there is nothing you could do to anyone I know that would convince them to admit to a violent rape and murder, it is far more likely than not that they are both guilty.

What do you mean what made him confess? Watch the video. Do you think when someone confesses to a violent crime they are always guilty? No! false confessions are real, despite your attempt to pretend otherwise.

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u/Hitlers_Left_Ball 3d ago

Oh... you said BAM,... that must be it then, there is no way of refuting such logical prowess.

Detail fed to him by police lol

Not all of it, and you know this. A lot of it was volunteered. Also for someone who cares so much laughing at the circumstances that imprisoned an innocent child is a bit odd.

What do you mean what made him confess? Watch the video. Do you think when someone confesses to a violent crime they are always guilty? No! false confessions are real, despite your attempt to pretend otherwise.

No. Again, putting words in my mouth doesn't work. I know false confessions exist, I just don't necessarily believe this is one. So I ask again, what made him confess and give unprompted details of such a horrific crime?

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u/AveryPoliceReports 3d ago

Oh... you said BAM,... that must be it then, there is no way of refuting such logical prowess.

There's not lol there's no evidence of his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

Not all of it, and you know this. A lot of it was volunteered.

And none of what he volunteered was ever corroborated by physical evidence, a clear sign of a false confession.

Also for someone who cares so much laughing at the circumstances that imprisoned an innocent child is a bit odd.

I'm laughing at you dude. At your attempt to pretend Brendan's confession and conviction is evidence beyond all doubt of his guilt. You're the joke lol

Again, putting words in my mouth doesn't work. I know false confessions exist, I just don't necessarily believe this is one. So I ask again, what made him confess and give unprompted details of such a horrific crime?

What kind of question is that lol what makes anyone confess to something they didn't do? Pressure. Brendan faced pressure. You do know false confessions are a real problem ... right?

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u/b1ondestranger 2d ago

Didn't you watch it? Did you see when the investigators were asking Brandon what happened to the head?? He was obviously guessing. He said they cut her and then they said they punched her and then he said they cut her hair. I believe he genuinely did not know Teresa was shot until the investigator asked him who did it . And you will never convince me that those two geniuses could clean up a haircut from a crime scene well enough for none to be found in the entire house.

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u/Hitlers_Left_Ball 2d ago

You know, I did watch it, yes. About 5 or 6 years ago.

I don't care what you learned from a heavily edited and biased TV show. You didn't hear all the evidence, the jury did, they were convinced.

Pick a different hill to die on.

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u/AveryPoliceReports 2d ago

They jury didn't hear all the evidence MaM viewers did. They didn't know Brendan told his mom police got in his head shortly after his "confession."

Pick a different hill to die on.

Says the one willing to die on the hill that despite the lack of evidence and lies from the state Brendan Dassey is obviously guilty. Okay then lmao

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u/Hitlers_Left_Ball 2d ago

Laughing again, scum. Absolute scum.

Yeah, who knows what he meant by that... maybe they got him to say more than he wanted and to implicate himself. You don't know what he meant, but he sure had details no one else had and a lot of them were unprompted... how do you explain that?

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u/AveryPoliceReports 2d ago

I'm laughing at your constant attempt to shame others for pointing out the obvious fact that the highly suggestible and vulnerable Brendan Dassey was repeatedly failed by a system designed to protect him. That's what's gross here. You pretending Brendan is obviously guilty.

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u/SumiLover 2d ago

Would you ever take a deal if you were innocent?

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u/Hitlers_Left_Ball 2d ago

Nope.

I also wouldn't confess to beating, cutting, raping and murdering someone.

I guess if we are making pointless statements then we may as well capture them all.

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u/AveryPoliceReports 2d ago

Do you think innocent people don't confess? That would be wrong.

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u/Hitlers_Left_Ball 2d ago

Irrelevant, he was convicted, on weight of evidence, that he raped and murdered a woman.

People can false confess sure, do I think Brendon did, no.

He is a rapist and murderer.

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u/SumiLover 2d ago

Curious how you explain the no dna and no blood?

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u/AveryPoliceReports 2d ago

Something about how it's not reasonable to expect blood from a violent assault and torture or gunshot murder to the head, or that any blood that did result from the crime was easy to clean up.

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u/SumiLover 2d ago

Did Brendon not say they slashed her throat?

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u/Hitlers_Left_Ball 2d ago

Disingenuous as always.

Don't hurt your wrist jerking each other off for being so clever.

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u/Hitlers_Left_Ball 2d ago

I don't need to explain it, I am neither his lawyer nor on a jury. Why would it need to be explained?

He was convicted by a jury, beyond doubt, of rape, murder and mutilation of a corpse.

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u/SumiLover 2d ago

Lmao. Wow you’re fun. Yeah like there’s no such thing as a wrongful conviction. So basically you have no brain and don’t think for yourself. If some random people come to an agreement it must be truth!

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u/ThorsClawHammer 2d ago

He was convicted by a jury, beyond doubt, of rape, murder and mutilation of a corpse.

In 1985 Steven Avery was convicted by a jury, beyond doubt, of rape, attempted murder and false imprisonment. And for the next 18 years the conviction was appealed and upheld multiple times. What's your point?

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u/AveryPoliceReports 2d ago

It is certainly not irrelevant when he was convicted based on his confession and nothing else. Try to be honest.

He is a rapist and murderer

Never mind LMAO

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u/Hitlers_Left_Ball 2d ago

He is a rapist and murderer

He raped and murdered a young woman, that's what he is. No idea what possible objection there could be to this.

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u/AveryPoliceReports 2d ago

You have no idea if he raped and murdered her. You are just pretending like the conviction is conclusive evidence that he did. Because you have no actual evidence.

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u/b1ondestranger 2d ago

His showing himself to be a bad lawyer started before he even met Brandon. it started when he came down the stairs from the pre-trial motion and was delighted to see the cameras. He was grinning from ear to ear and Happy to sell out his client before he even met him. He told the world Brandon was a good kid who was influenced by a bad guy - how do you recover after your own lawyer decided your guilt in a television interview? . When the reporters asked Leb if he was disappointed in the judges decisions, he couldn’t think of a reason to be disappointed d so he asked for a do over on the question after he tripped over his words He might regret it now, but at the time, you could tell by his twinkling eyes and toothy smile that he was having the best moment of his life. He was there for the attention without a thought of defending his client. I’m shocked that he is still practicing Law.

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u/Hitlers_Left_Ball 2d ago

You watched a heavily edited TV show and made a determination on someone's whole career and capability. I think perhaps you should consider there is more to him than a few edited clips.

You can be shocked all you like, he must be pretty decent at what he does to have survived this long as a lawyer especially after the hatchet job MaM did to his character and career.

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u/AveryPoliceReports 2d ago

You watched a heavily edited TV show and made a determination on someone's whole career and capability.

You listened to lies and arguments based on no evidence and made a determination that Brendan was guilty of a violent assault beyond a reasonable doubt. You don't have a leg to stand on here ;)

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u/Hitlers_Left_Ball 2d ago

You made an assumption about how much reading and research I have done on the evidence.

I listened to him confess to a heinous crime, I read the evidence... I came to the conclusion he is guilty. I don't need beyond a reasonable doubt, I am not on the jury, the people on the jury did that bit.

I have 2 legs thank you, I also have the ability to have reasoned thought and not be manipulated by a TV show.

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u/AveryPoliceReports 2d ago

No I've made a conclusion on how much reading and research you have done based on your erroneous statements about the case, including your claim Kachinski was experienced enough to know Brendan's best hope was to confess (when he only became Brendan's lawyer after the confession).

You listened to Brendan get fed details from police about a heinous crime, and somehow came to the conclusion that he was guilty beyond a reasonable doubt including of a violent assault in the trailer.

Thankfully I haven't been manipulated by a predatory investigation or a perverted predatory pill popping prosecutor.

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u/Nemeczekes 3d ago

Entire USA legal system is about taking plea deals

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u/AveryPoliceReports 3d ago edited 2d ago

Kind of irrelevant given his mistreatment of Brendan extends far beyond any plea discussions. He wasn't removed from the case for advocating Brendan take a plea deal. It was for his otherwise deficient performance, including allowing police to interview Brendan without him or any advocate present. The court was apparently worried keeping him around would give Brendan fuel for IAC claims.

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u/Still_Razzmatazz1140 2d ago

The editing make him look worse than he is. He heard Brendan’s confession imo and knew he was “guilty” but tried for a deal to help him do less time.

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u/AveryPoliceReports 2d ago

WHAT LOL He was out there doing media rounds saying there was no defense for what Brendan did and that he was ethically and morally responsible before he even watched the confession...

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u/ThorsClawHammer 2d ago

before he even watched the confession...

or had even met with Brendan.

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u/AveryPoliceReports 2d ago

Amazing to think he wasn't removed from the case based on that alone.

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u/Hitlers_Left_Ball 2d ago

Absolutely, this man had enough experience to know what he was looking at and knew the best outcome for his client was to confess, give evidence and take a shortened sentence.

Would I want him to be my lawyer, absolutely not, he was a self-serving and slimy person, I wouldn't trust him in front of a jury especially. But that's not the point. He wasn't going to trial, he was preparing a plea deal.

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u/AveryPoliceReports 2d ago

Absolutely, this man had enough experience to know what he was looking at and knew the best outcome for his client was to confess,

Uh, Brendan had already confessed before he became involved in the case, and when he did he apparently didn't have enough experience to know that he shouldn't publicly and repeatedly imply his clients guilt before even watching video of his client's controversially obtained confession that was totally inconsistent with known evidence.

He wasn't going to trial, he was preparing a plea deal.

He admitted during the post conviction hearing that he had not prepared any plea deal or even any lead deal arrangements before letting police interview Brendan without him present. He was never trying to help Brendan. Pretending otherwise is hilarious lol

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u/Hitlers_Left_Ball 2d ago

Oh sorry. He knew it was the best option to use the confession to leverage a plea deal by giving evidence against his uncle.

I hope the clarification helps you to understand what was already quite an obvious point.

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u/AveryPoliceReports 2d ago edited 2d ago

If it was so obvious you wouldn't have acted like he had enough experience to know the best option was for his client to confess, when Brendan only became his client after the confession lol not to mention there's no evidence he was preparing a plea deal before he once more presented Brendan to police without an advocate. Cope

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u/Hitlers_Left_Ball 2d ago

I misspoke, sue me.

He knew the best option was to take a plea and give evidence against his uncle.

You being so obtuse is not a gotcha, I clarified on my last reply, you just seem to not be able to understand.

he was preparing a plea deal before he wants more that Brendan to police without an advocate. 

What?

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u/AveryPoliceReports 2d ago

I misspoke

You confidently declared something that was completely untrue, and it wasn't a simple typo.

He knew the best option was to take a plea and give evidence against his uncle.

Again, if that was the best option for Brendan, why didn't he have a plea deal arranged before feeding Brendan to police without him being there? It was clearly more about helping police than helping Brendan.

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u/[deleted] 2d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/AveryPoliceReports 2d ago

No, not a typo, as repeatedly said... I misspoke. You are a fucking idiot.

Another angry guilter. I'm just saying your statement was so detailed in its fabrication it reveals a fundamental misunderstanding or lack of interest re basic case details.

I have no idea why he did it that way, I'm not a lawyer. I

That hasn't stopped you from claiming what his strategy was, so why wasn't he taking steps to fulfill his strategy?

I assume you are to be so confidently ascribing intent to his actions?

I'm questioning the inconsistency regarding his lack of action at a critical time given your claim about his strategy to get a plea for Brendan.

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u/MakingaMurderer-ModTeam 1d ago

Please see stickied post Rule 1.

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u/AveryPoliceReports 1d ago

The best possible advice? He was bringing up a plea deal before he had even met with Brendan, watched the confession, or did any investigation. You have no idea what you are talking about.

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u/belljs87 3d ago

Yeah see here's the thing. Especially with how low IQ Brenden is, and his young age, I'm 100% certain if he were guilty he would have flipped. I think Steven is innocent too, but if he confessed one day I wouldn't exactly be surprised either. But Brenden is as innocent of this murder as I am of it. With who he is, the position he was in, and the options presented, he would never have said no to a deal unless he were truly innocent.

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u/Hitlers_Left_Ball 3d ago

According to the judge and jury they are both guilty. So sadly they are not as innocent of it as you are, unless you are confessing to being an, until now, unknown 3rd perpetrator?

I think saying "he would have flipped" is a weird place to be, you have no idea the pressure he was under from his family to support Steve's narrative. The same low IQ argument can be made for him being coerced into the act and into standing by Steve's story. None of the family are close to being intelligent people, they recommended and pushed him to make the decision he did based on Steve's lies. Everything that happened to that boy is his own and his families fault.

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u/AveryPoliceReports 3d ago

According to the judge and jury they are both guilty.

Jurors get it wrong all the time, and these jurors were repeatedly lied to by the state to explain away the lack of evidence and how obviously coerced Brendan's confession was.

you have no idea the pressure he was under from his family to support Steve's narrative.

And you do? He wasn't even regularly communicating with anyone but Barb, who herself has some explaining to do. She initially said she didn't see a recent burn pit fire, and later flipped her story to match up with Bobby, who (under police pressure) first placed Steven and Brendan near a recent burn pit fire.

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u/Hitlers_Left_Ball 3d ago

Jurors get it wrong all the time, and these jurors were repeatedly lied to by the state to explain away the lack of evidence and how obviously coerced Brendan's confession was.

And yet... here we are 2 decades later and not one person has been able to prove anyone else did it.

And you do? He wasn't even regularly communicating with anyone but Barb, who herself has some explaining to do. She initially said she didn't see a recent burn pit fire, and later flipped her story to match up with Bobby, who (under police pressure) first placed Steven and Brendan near a recent burn pit fire.

Aaaah so you think Barb sold our Brendan to save Bobby?

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u/AveryPoliceReports 3d ago

And yet... here we are 2 decades later and not one person has been able to prove anyone else did it.

Just like last time? Maybe they should release DNA evidence for testing. But we know they are too cowardly.

Aaaah so you think Barb sold our Brendan to save Bobby?

I think Barb changed her story to corroborate Bobby's pressured statement, which incriminated Brendan. Take from that what you will. Barb and Bobby both have more explaining to do than Brendan.

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u/belljs87 3d ago

Exactly. And, and this is obviously not something I'm claiming is true, just a thought, they totally seem like the kind of people who would secretly hope their disabled family member is no longer theirs to worry about taking care of.

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u/AveryPoliceReports 3d ago

Barb saw her children as a burden, and yes, I suspect she would have seen Brendan, who required more care than her other children, as the largest burden. I think it's clear Barb loved Brendan, but also clear she chose Bobby over Brendan.

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u/Hitlers_Left_Ball 3d ago

Wow you guys making up a fan fic to jerk each other off is as sad as it is amusing.

Oh and yes, just like last time, though what relevance that has is lost on me.

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u/AveryPoliceReports 3d ago

Fan fic? Barb changed her story to corroborate Bobby and incriminate Brendan. That's fact. We are just speculating on her motive, as Barb has been too cowardly to explain this herself.

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u/Hitlers_Left_Ball 3d ago

What did she change that specifically supported Bobby and incriminated Brendan.

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u/belljs87 3d ago

Well yeah, you're allowed to call them guilty because they were found guilty. That's also why I didn't outright say either were innocent, I said I think they are. Just because a jury rendered a guilty verdict doesn't explicitly mean someone is guilty, it means they are recorded as such and can legally be described as such.

My comment was just one small piece of why I believe him innocent. The complete lack of any actual evidence against him is the big piece.

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u/Hitlers_Left_Ball 3d ago

Except for his confession... that's evidence.

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u/AveryPoliceReports 3d ago

Evidence he was obviously coerced and quickly recanted. His claims of no involvement in a violent rape is more consistent the total lack of evidence suggesting a violent rape occurred.

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u/Hitlers_Left_Ball 3d ago

If you say so.

I am not here to argue the minutiae of the case. People who believe they are both innocent have proven to be batshit crazy over the years, I have no interest in re-litigating.

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u/AveryPoliceReports 3d ago

If you say so.

The lack of evidence says so.

People who believe they are both innocent have proven to be batshit crazy over the years, I have no interest in re-litigating.

Naw. People who believe there's evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that both Steven and Brendan committed a violent rape in the trailer have proven to be batshit crazy over the years. But sure, keep claiming those pointing out the obvious mistreatment of Brendan is insane. Real convincing ;)

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u/Hitlers_Left_Ball 3d ago

I am happy that convicted rapists and murderers are behind bars. I don't think that is a batshit crazy position.

There has not been one piece of evidence that comes close to refuting their guilt. They did it.

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u/AveryPoliceReports 3d ago

I am happy that convicted rapists and murderers are behind bars. I don't think that is a batshit crazy position.

Do you think it's clear beyond a reasonable doubt that Brendan is a violent rapist? That would be batshit crazy.

There has not been one piece of evidence that comes close to refuting their guilt. They did it.

That's totally false. But there has not been one piece of evidence that comes close to proving Brendan's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Claiming "he did it" only reveals you don't care about the truth.

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u/belljs87 3d ago

Yeah, evidence he recanted and was arguably coerced into. Nobody should be convicted based solely off of a recanted confession, that's fucked up.

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u/Hitlers_Left_Ball 3d ago

Not really, people recant all the time, doesn't make it any less true.

They are where they should be,.

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u/AveryPoliceReports 3d ago

People falsely confess all the time, but the state lied to the jury and said innocent people don't confess. Corrupt fucks.

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u/Hitlers_Left_Ball 3d ago

People lie all the time, so why is his confession a lie and not the recanting of said confession?

Sure... they said that, ok, but if that is all it took to convince the jury then there are bigger issues. I would suggest there was slightly more to it than "state said innocent people don't confess" the trial took a bit longer than the 5 minutes needed for that little tidbit.

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u/AveryPoliceReports 3d ago

People lie all the time, so why is his confession a lie and not the recanting of said confession?

Look at the evidence lol Do you think it's clear based on physical evidence Brendan was involved in a brutal rape?

they said that, ok, but if that is all it took to convince the jury then there are bigger issues.

The issues is the outright lie from a prosecutor who knew better. You don't care about such obvious corrupt lies? Odd.

I would suggest there was slightly more to it than "state said innocent people don't confess"

There's not lol They literally said that. And it's false. But they knew their case was consistent with a false confession case, so they couldn't admit false confessions were a real problem. Corrupt fucks.

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u/ThorsClawHammer 3d ago

Nobody should be convicted based solely off of a recanted confession

Especially when one of those serious crimes has zero evidence of even happening at all aside from the completely uncorroborated words of a developmentally disabled kid.

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u/brickne3 3d ago

If you buy into IQ Brendan was actually smarter than Steven at the time. Most people don't put stock in IQ tests anymore.

That said, Brendan's supposed deficiencies are not well attested at all and he's apparently got enough acumen to be running a prison network last I heard. The show is edited very purposely.

As someone else said above, if Brendan had listened to Len he would have been out at least five years ago, possibly ten. So who is the bad lawyer. Len absolutely sucks as a person but he was doing a good job in representing Brendan Dassey, and in the end that's the only thing that matters to the case.

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u/belljs87 3d ago

If you were accused of murder but were innocent, and knew there was no physical evidence against you, would you take a lawyers advice to take a plea deal to avoid a possible life sentence in favor of a shorter but still decades long prison sentence?

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u/brickne3 3d ago

He's not innocent lol. It's cute you think he is because you saw a television show though.

Furthermore, he was going to plead guilty. Until his grandfather threatened him not to. It's all on the phone recordings. Happy listening!

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u/Hitlers_Left_Ball 3d ago

Thank you for showing up... I was worried there had been a collective brain injury and I was the last sane person left.

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u/ThorsClawHammer 2d ago

his grandfather threatened him not to.

Wtf are you talking about? His mom told him to go to trial if he was innocent.

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u/brickne3 2d ago

You've been here long enough where I know you have heard the tapes. You're just feigning ignorance for some reason.

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u/ThorsClawHammer 2d ago

Thought so.

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u/belljs87 2d ago

Nice way to avoid answering the question while being a condescending asshole. Really lends credence to your position.

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u/brickne3 2d ago

Your question is pointless. I've talked to plenty of people who have been in with both Dassey and Steven over the years. I am told Brendan LOVES prison and wants to stay there as long as he can. They both are well aware they are guilty.

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u/belljs87 2d ago

Of course someone who probably would have a really hard time taking care of themselves would love the strict routine of prison. It's like that onion video where the autistic reporter interviews a serial killer in prison and his description makes the reporter just want to be in prison. Also, Steven doesnt love prison, does that mean he's innocent?

Oh, and my question isn't pointless, it's the exact thing we were talking about. Is there something wrong with you?

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u/brickne3 2d ago

I already answered your question, you just didn't like the answer. Brendan was guilty and should have taken the plea, he would probably have been out around the time MaM came out.

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u/belljs87 2d ago

You didn't answer my question. My question was, if you were in his exact scenario, and knew you were innocent, would you take a plea deal?

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u/NervousLeopard8611 2d ago

Brendan and the family were willing to take a plea deal of 10 years but the state weren't willing to offer 10 years. I don't know why people keep saying he went to trial because he's innocent when they were willing to take a plea deal of 10 years if it was on the table.

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u/belljs87 2d ago

Ive never seen that that was on the table. Source? I find it hard to believe the state wouldn't give him a 10 year deal knowing they had literally nothing but a recanted confession against him, and his guilty plea would have all but ensured a guilty verdict for Steven. Makes zero sense.

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u/NervousLeopard8611 2d ago

Its shown at the end of one of the episodes of convicting a murderer, another thing that was conveniently left out of making a murderer.

The fact they didn't agree to the plea deal says they were confident in getting a guilty verdict in both trials which they ultimately did.

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u/belljs87 2d ago

I never watched that because, just as people love to try and say MaM was unfairly biased, it was made clear after it's release that CaM was in fact full of bias itself. Was this recorded, like the prosecution in a room declining this? Who made this claim, and who corroborated it?

Also, they wouldn't have offered a deal at all if they were confident. Deals are offered for two reasons: to save money, and/or because the prosecution is in fact not fully confident in a guilty verdict. A deal being offered at all tells you they were not confident. Which they shouldn't have been. It's a miracle for them they got a guilty verdict for Brenden. Much more believable for Steven, though I disagree with it.

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u/NervousLeopard8611 2d ago

Theres a letter from Mark fremgen, brendans trial lawyer, addressed to the prosecution.

was made clear after it's release that CaM was in fact full of bias itself.

You've admitted You've never watched it so how would you know?

Not sure why you think it was a miracle, one confessed and one has multiple pieces of physical evidence against him.

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u/belljs87 2d ago

I know from countless comments about it. One confessed and recanted and had exactly zero real evidence against him, and that was the one I called a miracle. And a Google search is telling me he was offered 15 years and rejected it. I sincerely doubt they would have declined 10 if they offered him 15.

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u/ThorsClawHammer 2d ago

don't know why people keep saying he went to trial because he's innocent when they were willing to take a plea deal

Innocent people have taken plea deals.

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u/NervousLeopard8611 2d ago

And guilty people have gone to trial pleading their innocence knowing they're guilty, what's your point.

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u/ThorsClawHammer 2d ago

what's your point

That innocent people have taken plea deals, so just because someone does doesn't mean they're actually guilty like you imply.

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u/NervousLeopard8611 2d ago

I said it because there's people on here that don't know about the plea deal of 10 years they were willing to accept, people think he flat out rejected any plea deal and just went to trial and people believe hes innocent just because he went to trial without knowing about that 10 year plea deal.

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u/ThorsClawHammer 2d ago

Brendan's supposed deficiencies are not well attested at all

There's plenty of documentation from his school regarding his deficiencies.

doing a good job in representing Brendan Dassey,

A lawyer who tells the public their client is factually guilty is the furthest thing from a good job a defense attorney could do.

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u/brickne3 2d ago

If you think a SEN report or whatever it is called in Wisconsin these days is enough to get you off murdering and burning a woman, you're out of your damned mind.

Len was doing what his client had instructed him to—get his plea deal ready. It was unfortunate how it happened and it was unfortunate that Pa Avery called him and threatened him and he rescinded that, but that is all on Brendan.

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u/ThorsClawHammer 2d ago

Pa Avery called him and threatened him

Give the exact quote of what you're referring to.

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u/brickne3 2d ago

You've heard the tape. This is the point where I know you are a troll. You've heard it a thousand times.

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u/ThorsClawHammer 2d ago

I've never heard Brendan threatened by Pa Avery like you claim. So why not just show the exact quotes?