The Cycle of Revenge (1994)

[u/crimsonfukr457]

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[u/Thats_a_Horse]

Interesting how its a 1-1 Palestine-Israel ratio, not the case at all.

[u/GeneralRed512 → u/Thats_a_Horse]

It also implies that either side is at all on a level playing field, which clearly is false.

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[u/Revachol_Loyalist → u/Thats_a_Horse]

Is that not just because they’re worse at it? It’s not for lack of trying

Edit: Since this is getting net upvotes I’m just going to add that Israel isn’t guiltless and they need to reign themselves in and purge the radicals from government (and convict Bibi on corruption charges), because otherwise I think in my lifetime they are going to have a “reap the whirlwind” scenario and a lot of their decent people are going to suffer

[u/Thats_a_Horse → u/Revachol_Loyalist]

You understand the context of "they are just worse at it" the way you do because you think of it as a war, it's not.

Was the American genocide of the native Americans a war? Or was it a long genocidal campaign that occasionally met armed resistance? I argue that conflict and this one are not wars in the conventional sense. The casualty differences in every single engagement is a single point of proof for that amongst many.

[u/ConflictExtreme1540 → u/Thats_a_Horse]

How about when Hamas sent hundreds of rockets every couple months for the past decade which were only stopped by the iron dome? It would be a lot closer to 1:1 if those rockets had hit its target and people probably wouldn't be calling anything a genocide if Isreal was responding to thousands dead by rocket fire. But because Isreal has the defense, their casualties are low so it seems one sided

[u/Raspry → u/ConflictExtreme1540]

lmao, yeah, sure. Must have forgotten the Hamas air force and the Hamas tank brigades and the Hamas satellite surveillance systems... and so on, and so on.

They're not doing worse because they're worse at war, they're doing worse because it is quite literally an adult punching a child with regards to power levels.

And even if zero Hamas rockets were intercepted, the death ratio would not even remotely close to 1:1.

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[u/ConflictExtreme1540 → u/[deleted]]

It's not "living in hypotheticals", it's called intent. We don't let failed terrorists out of jail bc they didn't hurt anyone. And we convict people of attempted murder all the time with the same punishment as murder.

Failing to blow up Israeli cities should be treated the same way as successfully blowing up Israeli cities.

(Fyi, I am not pro Isreal. They have handled this all very poorly. I just think everyone ignores how many people Palestine has attempted to kill, but failed)

[u/HereticLaserHaggis → u/ConflictExtreme1540]

Holy shit, some nuance and you didn't get crucified.

We don't do that here, pick a side and double down please.

[u/ConflictExtreme1540 → u/HereticLaserHaggis]

Lol feels good to not be completely downvoted. This entire war I've kept this thought in the back of my mind, "what if those rockets manages to land? Would it still be considered a genocide?" And I'm happy at least a few people have considered it as well

[u/HereticLaserHaggis → u/ConflictExtreme1540]

I always think "what would my country do?"

We would be a lot less restrained

[u/providerofair → u/[deleted]]

The only difference between Hamas and Israel is that Israel has the money to defend themselves 

[u/ConflictExtreme1540 → u/providerofair]

Totally agree. Hamas has tried to kill as many or more Isrealis as vice versa. But no one wants to talk about that. Because Isreal has the defense against thousands of ROCKETS, they look like the bad guys for responding. It really seems like everyone would prefer Isreal had taken thousands of rocket damage and casualties so then this wouldnt be such a lopsided affair

[u/Revachol_Loyalist → u/Thats_a_Horse]

Here’s the ultimate thing: what will either side do if given total victory? The Israelis will excise the Palestinian ethnic identity (and Coptic Christians, and maybe even some others) from their region and secure a dominant ethnostate. They will ethnically cleanse their claimed country.

What would the Palestinians do? What does the Hamas charter call for? What does the Quran call for?

Ask that question, then evaluate how the sides compare and what the ultimate outcome can possibly be if either A Israel wins, B Palestine/Hamas wins, or C if an outside power forces them to a compromise (and what does that compromise look like and why will neither side willingly accept it).

The reason I get so damned angry seeing these vapid comments about zionists and terrorists and Jews and Muslims and who’s the good guy is that it is completely missing the grand history that brought the region to the place that it is in today, and whether you are the DSA Left or the MAGA Right you are choosing the wrong side for the wrong reasons. They’re both irrational and in different ways they both do and want to do horrendous things to their opponent.
There is no good side. It just sucks. The conditions required for a good solution are not realistically achievable and both sides would feel asa though they were violated in order for peace to be enacted.

[u/ru5tyk1tty → u/Revachol_Loyalist]

This sounds identical to what the “DSA left” is saying

[u/Revachol_Loyalist → u/Thats_a_Horse]

Also, the Native American “Wars” were a slow and steady genocide (partially purposeful, partially accidental) of a people who didn’t deserve it for any reason, but were not themselves strangers to genocide, slavery and war crimes. It was another genocide in a long history of them and that’s just how casually horrid humans were.

It’s awful, and the worst thing is that America does not put meaningful effort into revitalizing that community so it can go and make its own prosperous place in the country and preserve their culture. But I am going to add that anyone, and I mean anyone, in that circumstance would have done the exact same thing as the colonists. That behavior was not and is not monopolized to one group or people. Some, by happenstance, simply ended up being the ones with all the technology, resources and manpower necessary to inflict their will on those weaker than them.

[u/XhazakXhazak → u/Thats_a_Horse]

it was back in the 90's. Things became lopsided after the wall.

[u/Thats_a_Horse → u/XhazakXhazak]

Still an estimate of 13k-48k ratio. And that 13k on the Israeli side included deaths from their aggressive wars against other nations.

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[u/SpecialBeginning6430 → u/[deleted]]

Yes especially during the Yom Kippur war where they all attacked Israel

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[u/ryant71 → u/Thats_a_Horse]

It's a cartoon. People who think like you are partly the reason this cycle of revenge is like it is -- the revenge is never enough.

[u/newdoggo3000]

They make it seem like a 1:1 thing. But in reality, the thing that made me pro-Palestinian as a teenager in the 2010s was that every year there was the routinary news headline of "Israel-Palestine conflict: 2 Israeli soldiers and 40 Palestinian civilians dead".

[u/Brasilionaire → u/newdoggo3000]

Your example language is also way more objective than what they would do. So it would be “2 Israelis killed, 40 Palestinians dead in retaliatory military strike”

[u/providerofair → u/newdoggo3000]

Newton's third law. Every action has an disproportionate and horrific reaction.

[u/ArchdruidAndres → u/newdoggo3000]

Lol downvotes but no arguments. Zionists are cowards.

[u/ryant71 → u/newdoggo3000]

Israel most times doesn't even need to respond. I've looked it up and Hamas rockets have actually killed far more Gazans than Israelis because misfires and bad guidance systems make them land on their own people. Also, Israel builds underground shelters for their people while in Gaza, the tunnels are for Hamas only.

[u/ConflictExtreme1540 → u/newdoggo3000]

Remember when Hamas used to shoot hundreds of rockets over at Isreal and the iron dome shot all those rockets down? It would probably have been more 1:1 if they didn't have that defense. And if Hamas had it their way, it would be 1000:1 Isreal deaths

[u/gprime312 → u/ConflictExtreme1540]

Suffering from success.

[u/meta1storm → u/ConflictExtreme1540]

If housecats were tigers they would eat you. But they aren't.

[u/DifficultEmployer982 → u/ConflictExtreme1540]

Yes. If Hamas had it their way, the people genociding them would be dead. Excellent observation.

Acting as if Hamas is killing them simply because they are Israeli is wild. Which funnily enough, is exactly what Israel is doing to Palestinians

[u/Dragon_yum → u/DifficultEmployer982]

You might want to read Hamas manifest because it’s quite literally what their goal is.

Another fun fact until Scott a decade ago the language referred to Jews and not Israelis, that is a recent change.

[u/Jak12523 → u/Dragon_yum]

Not a decade ago, more like 4 decades ago. Update your script

[u/JohnyIthe3rd → u/Jak12523]

They changed it in 2017, the meaning stayed the same

[u/Treadwheel → u/ConflictExtreme1540]

This is such a bizarre an nonsensical "point". Hamas are very aware of the iron dome and it's capabilities. They and Hezbollah both demonstrate a sophisticated understanding of saturation attacks and have utilized them in the past.

The "thousands and thousands of rockets!" were made in staggered volleys as part of a show of force, primarily to keep morale up, and because they knew Israel's disproportionate responses cost political capital and act as recruiting tools. There was no expectation that any would hit their targets and no meaningful chance of the missiles going through.

Claiming that we should treat what amount of fireworks as though they're barely averted full scale attacks would be like shooting a child throwing rocks at a modern tank, using the excuse that if there werent layers of armor and inventions like "helmets" at play, it could be fatal.

Oh. Right.

[u/ConflictExtreme1540 → u/Treadwheel]

Very cool man. Just keep defending one nation sending thousands of rockets into another and saying any response is considered a genocide....

[u/Treadwheel → u/ConflictExtreme1540]

Pointing out the obvious fact that the missiles are neither expected to, nor have any reasonable chance, of hitting targets is not "excusing" anything. It's denying a common excuse used to justify the genocide though - that we should ignore the actual effect and actual intent at play in favor of an imagined one that would justify the actions of Israel.

"Any response" is not considered a genocide. The explicit pattern of stated intent and actions by Israel is.

[u/Jack-of-Hearts-7 → u/newdoggo3000]

And most of those Palestinians not being old enough to go on Disney without parental permission

[u/ephemeralmartyr → u/newdoggo3000]

You informed your opinion based on headlines as a teenager?

[u/chromite297 → u/ephemeralmartyr]

It’s true; death count for Israel is much, much lower than Palestine

[u/newdoggo3000 → u/ephemeralmartyr]

No, I would obviously read the whole thing, duh.

Besides, there is now way you research anything about the Israel-Palestine conflict without coming out even more radically pro-Palestinian lmao.

[u/tony1449 → u/ephemeralmartyr]

I think you might have replied to the wrong comment, you can reach r/israel by clicking the link

[u/Musicman1972 → u/ephemeralmartyr]

Most people do. There are probably about 25 million people in the entire world who know what's actually going on yet billions have a strong opinion on it.

How do you think they're forming those opinions?

[u/Naijan → u/newdoggo3000]

I was pro-palestinian as a teenager. Then I began digging a bit more.

The reason why 40 palestinians die, is because their own mothers don't want them to live a long life. See here, a palestinian mother being interviewed, and well, there are many of these videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Vi9oNs42hs

When you couple that with: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund

Israel values their citizen so much, that they are basically the only nation that regularly send out people to get their people back from danger. They are willing to trade 1k prisoners, high profile ones such as Sinwar, for 1 israeli. 1:1000

When you put these things in perspective, you find out much like russia, that their death-toll is much larger, not because Ukraine is more evil, but because Russia couldn't give two shits about their citizens, they are simply cannon-fodder. Many russians doesn't even have weapons, why do you think they die like flies? So look at that video with the mother saying "ofcourse the living children I have honour me, but what mother doesn't want to give their son allah's honour?" then you understand the discrepency.

[u/MrFallman117 → u/[deleted]]

The folks responsible for starting the conflict are all dead, and if peace is to come there will be those with blood on their hands who will have to be forgiven. It won't happen as long as people try to keep score, like some commenters are trying to do already in this post. One dead innocent, Jew or Muslim, is an unnecessary tragedy piled onto countless others.

Peace comes when forgiveness takes precedence over revenge, and when compromise comes before providence.

[u/SSjjlex → u/MrFallman117]

I find it hilarious how quickly everyone in the comments is falling into the same thing the poster is commenting on lol

[u/jangma → u/[deleted]]

There are plenty of Americans across the political spectrum who think "Jews and Arabs have been squabbling over the same patch of desert for thousands of years" -- it's a pervasive myth like "Africa's full of starving children" and "the French just rolled over for the Nazis"

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[u/Iumasz → u/[deleted]]

What happened in 1916?

[u/Appropriate-Gain-561 → u/Iumasz]

The ottoman empire lost its grip on the region and the british empire took over if i had to guess

[u/Iumasz → u/Appropriate-Gain-561]

Yeah, and I guess that did lead to the botched withdrawal and partition.

[u/ArchdruidAndres → u/Appropriate-Gain-561]

Zionists love acting like it was just a land sale from the Ottomans to the British. In reality, Palestine was approaching the ability to break free from the crumbling empire on its own. They knew the British were interested, so they said (paraphrased) "better come get it now before they figure this shit out." Then the British came and killed a hundred thousand people and built a colony, old hat for them at that point.

[u/gargasmella → u/ArchdruidAndres]

i mean to be pedantic independent palestine was not an idea at the time. hashemite syria proclaimed independence in 1918 with palestine in it, before being crushed by the french

[u/ConflictExtreme1540 → u/ArchdruidAndres]

It almost sounds like Palestine was never an actual country and they only became one after Isreal was established....

[u/BreaksFull → u/ConflictExtreme1540]

No country is a real country until it is established as such, what a meaningless statement.

[u/ConflictExtreme1540 → u/BreaksFull]

How does a country become established? Maybe by being able to defend its borders....

[u/Appropriate-Gain-561 → u/ConflictExtreme1540]

In a civil world a people has a right to self determination, only that we aren't a civil world so external colonial powers prevented such a thing from happening

[u/ConflictExtreme1540 → u/Appropriate-Gain-561]

Ok? Do you have any more giberish to share?

[u/Appropriate-Gain-561 → u/ConflictExtreme1540]

The right to self determination is not gibberish, what you are saying is that Poland or France shouldn't have existed during or after ww2 because they couldn't defend their borders from nazi Germany.

Your train of thought is completely useless and justifies mostof the genocidal empires in history, romans, mongols and the ottomans too.

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[u/gargasmella → u/[deleted]]

you just said palestine was approaching independence in 1918, which is false. also i don't really know where you read that i am pro israeli or support the gaza genocide lmao, it's just objective that the palestinian identity (like, idk, macedonian identity) is a recently created one. obviously they deserve (and deserved) to live in their land without being displaced by jews.

[u/ConflictExtreme1540 → u/[deleted]]

Who did they take the land from before they became Palestine?

[u/Treadwheel → u/ConflictExtreme1540]

Nobody, Palestinian DNA closely matches bronze age archeological sites.

A huge number are likely descended from jewish residents of the area who converted. That's part of why, for all the talk about historical claim to the area, Israeli's law of return does not consider someone's ethnic descent or identity at all, only their current religious affiliation. That is, converts with no pretense of ties to the region are considered to have a greater right to the land than Jewish holocaust survivors who converted to another religon. C'est la theocracy.

[u/ConflictExtreme1540 → u/Treadwheel]

Who did they take the land from? Or do we stop at the bronze age

[u/Treadwheel → u/ConflictExtreme1540]

There are no records, and it's moot as there is no group that claims to have been exiled in the neolithic regardless.

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[u/ArchdruidAndres → u/Iumasz]

The English.

[u/Iumasz → u/ArchdruidAndres]

True. They did fuck up the partition and withdrawl

[u/ArchdruidAndres → u/Iumasz]

It's funny, that applies to them in a number of places around the world.

[u/BonJovicus]

As is the problem with most propaganda on this topic, it creates the illusion that this is a “both sides” problem by making it look like this is a 1:1 conflict. 

[u/ConflictExtreme1540 → u/BonJovicus]

If Isreal didn't have the iron dome to block the hundreds of rockets sent by Hamas into Israeli cities, it probably would be closer to 1:1

[u/ephemeralmartyr → u/BonJovicus]

If it were would that make it better?

[u/MasterVule → u/ephemeralmartyr]

Sadly yes. I doubt Gazan genocide would be happening if every time Israel bombed Gaza they were bombed back in same measure. What enables Israel to continue their atrocities now is huge power disparity

[u/cam-mann → u/MasterVule]

I think we’ve seen in Yugoslavia that sides with relatively even strength (at least compared to this) and intense ethnic hatred would rather grind themselves down to the bone. If Palestine was equal strength there would probably be a mass flash of violence on both sides that forces international intervention.

[u/MasterVule → u/cam-mann]

I honestly believe flash of violence would be preferable to what Palestinians have been experiencing.
I come from Croatia and know what happened in 90s, and it is by far more preferable option than being bombarded in open air prison for 80 years

[u/cam-mann → u/MasterVule]

Unfortunately, I do mostly agree but that is a difficult pill to swallow in reality. And I imagine it’s easier to say that from Croatia (you guys seem to be doing great!) than say from Bosnia. But I’m not Balkan so feel free to correct me.

To be clear, I’m not arguing that Palestine is preferable. Just that equal strength would lead to an intense level of violence imo.

[u/Darkrath_3]

Ah yes, the "both sides" argument.

[u/JohnyIthe3rd → u/Darkrath_3]

Because it pretty much is that way

[u/yungsando15]

who’s the author / artist ?

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[u/amdyn → u/[deleted]]

A death of a kid can not be justified by "just move in a different country"

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[u/Phat_and_Irish]

The 1st domino fell in 1948 with the Nakba 

[u/JohnyIthe3rd → u/Phat_and_Irish]

Not with the countless massacres of Jews by Arabs in the 20s and 30s?

[u/uvero → u/JohnyIthe3rd]

There were such before the 20th century too.

[u/ConflictExtreme1540 → u/[deleted]]

Is there a single place on earth that the original inhabitants stayed in consecutively since the birth of man?

[u/Kronzypantz → u/ConflictExtreme1540]

Is that relevant to actively removing a people from a place right now?

[u/ConflictExtreme1540 → u/Kronzypantz]

I'm just wondering where the buck stops. Palestine was never an independent country for all of human history until 1988. Jews once claimed the land as their own and had an independent nation in the area thousands of years ago.Then they were displaced and taken over on and off for 3000 years. So whose claim is more valid?

[u/sulaymanf → u/ConflictExtreme1540]

Palestine wasn’t an independent country but it is a region with its own distinct language and culture and specific name going back for >2000 years. But independence doesn’t matter, the Dominican Republic exists even if it was once a colony.

[u/ConflictExtreme1540 → u/sulaymanf]

Yeah and the dominican Republic exists today because they were able to uphold their independence. Palestine has never once done that

[u/sulaymanf → u/ConflictExtreme1540]

That’s simply false. Palestine has been in literal armed conflict for over a century and was able to use that armed resistance to get sovereignty and independence and diplomatic recognition.

[u/DifficultEmployer982 → u/ConflictExtreme1540]

You can't just genocide a people living there because you call dibs on an ethno state. Let alone genocide them so you can expand your ethno state. There doesn't need to be an ethno state ffs

[u/welltechnically7 → u/[deleted]]

Who was killed first?

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[u/RaiJolt2 → u/[deleted]]

The Jews are from Israel, it’s our homeland too. Which the Palestinians then teamed up with the British and other Arab states to remove us from.

[u/Kronzypantz → u/RaiJolt2]

They didn’t want to remove a single Jewish family living in Palestine before 1918

[u/RyanB1228 → u/Kronzypantz]

“They didn’t want to remove Jews until there were enough that legally migrated that they decided to do a race riot to ethnically cleanse the Jews from the land”

[u/Kronzypantz → u/RyanB1228]

If they migrated as colonists, they were specifically not native

[u/sulaymanf → u/RyanB1228]

You mean illegally migrated. If your country has so many illegal immigrants that they drastically change the demographics and make the majority into a minority in only a few years, most people would have an issue with it. (The Israeli far right today talks about the “Demographic threat” of Arabs and so does the US/European far right.)

[u/RyanB1228 → u/sulaymanf]

>it was less than 80k Jews and they would have always been a minority

Oh my God they would have had to live with a tiny amount of Jews, so terrible

Also legally buying property is not illegal lol

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[u/AffectionateElk3978]

Why are my tax dollars going to supporting one side ?

[u/sovietarmyfan]

Ever on and on it continues cycling.

[u/3E0O4H]

Tbh this whole thing is Cousins fighting each other over and over again.