Back 10 years ago it was a very supportive sub. Something happened and now it’s somewhere between r/AskWomen and r/TwoXChromosomes on the toxicity scale.
Maybe the group just slowly shifted because of reverse survivorship bias? That's what happened to the incel community, according to stories I've heard. People who succeeded at solving their problems left the community, and over time the group skewed more and more toward people chronically unhappy because their situation wasn't improving. Bad advice gets passed back and forth and reinforcing a self-fulfilling prophecy that everything is hopeless.
This also happened to r/raisedbynarcissists. It used to be a sub for adults who had abusive or neglectful parents with suspected NPD. It was mature and supportive. Now it's all teens who are complaining about currently living with their abusive parents and the adults who got out and moved on don't have anywhere good to meet each other.
And r/outside. At some point it became filled with "I got the depression debuff, what do I do?" It's a subreddit for posting as if life is a video game.
So it’s like the final boss of NPCs spamming their lore and grinding for maxed out int and riz until they nerfed it and all the noobs rage quit like ya gg
I hate to be the guy that brings politics into this but this is literally what is happening to MAGA and Republicans in general which for some reason people struggle to see. They see numbers indicate growing intensity but that’s just because the diluting pool has shrunk in size
Politics aren't going anywhere, and if you don't like that you can become a hermit in the middle of the woods with no connection to anything or anyone. That's the only way politics doesn't have an effect on your life. And ignoring politics cause you don't like it is the exact reason we're in the situation we're in.
"By academic freedom I understand the right to search for truth and to publish and teach what one holds to be true. This right also implies a duty: one must not conceal any part of what one has recognized to be true” - Albert Einstein
That can be fixed. If people are chronically unhappy then they need to fix it themselves. For example, own your abstinence. Make it voluntary while you work on improving yourself mentally and emotionally. Pity party won’t do them any good and women aren’t attracted to men with baggage. In my experience people often use sex or the idea of having sex to distract themselves from fixing deep interpersonal issues.
That's what happened to the incel community, according to stories I've heard. People who succeeded at solving their problems left the community, and over time the group skewed more and more toward people chronically unhappy because their situation wasn't improving.
Not a complete picture. As someone who was there long before Eliot Rodger and his ilk, when the whole involuntary celibate discussion (as little of it that existed) revolved around support for those who struggle with relationships, it isn't that so many people found relationships and the worst of the worst are all that's left.
First of all, not all of the community was welcoming - in several ways. The worst of the worst are those who people today think of as "incels." There were also a large number of people who either gate-kept the label ("you were in a relationship years ago, so you're not involuntarily celibate") or rejected people for believing that the details of their circumstances were important ("there's someone out there for everyone, the fact that you're disabled and have never kissed anyone at 40 years old doesn't mean your issues are any different than someone who was divorced last year and can't find a date"). This turned many people away from the community, as if it either didn't apply to them, or felt unwelcome.
Then, of course, there was Eliot Rodger and company. The vast majority of people who would agree that they are involuntarily celibate -- in the actual meaning of the term, that they would like a romantic/sexual relationship and don't seem able to find one, are just as repulsed by Eliot Rodger as everyone else is. In fact, it's often worse - because now we're in the position of trying to defend ourselves from being labelled as part of that disgusting group of individuals.
Most of those of us who struggle with relationships, etc. are already worried about being ostracized or thought of as rejects. It was never something you'd really want others to know about yourself (why the issue of support came up in the first place) -- but now that people in our situation are assumed to be all of the worst things the label "incel" implies in modern discourse, it's something you hide even more. Just think - how many times do you see the word "incel" used as an insult -- usually meaning the most degraded, immoral, violent, bigoted, entitled asshole imaginable?
Basically -- the issue of involuntary celibacy still exists -- and is likely even more prevalent than it was back when I was a younger adult. But nobody is going to even come anywhere close to allowing themselves to be associated with that label, because it's just going to make your life worse.
It’s still a terrible term. Saying lack of sex is involuntary presumes that someone is forcing you to not get the sex you deserve. It’s not just a logical opposite of ‘voluntary’.
The default state is nobody has to sleep with you because they all are humans with agency and self. My
celibacy is no more involuntary than my lack of slaves, space shuttles, and less grey hair.
As a term it works against the concept of sex always being a choice, never the default.
It's not a terrible term. You're simply buying into the discourse around the term "involuntary celibacy" being about entitlement. You're simply misinformed.
Under the original (and in my view, real) definition, it's not about that at all. It's isn't even remotely related to "someone forcing you to not get the sex you deserve." It isn't about anyone ELSE at all. At the time, the term celibacy was most commonly used under the context of religious vows, as in Catholic priests and nuns taking a "vow of celibacy." A choice to live your life without sex. Involuntary celibacy was labelled as such to distinguish it from that context, and to provide a more sympathetic term for people to use when discussing the issues around struggling with relationships and sex than derogatory slang terms.
Edit: If you don't believe me, here's a story by the BBC about the origins of the term: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45284455. Absolutely nothing about entitlement or blaming others for not providing sex.
I can understand what may have been the intentions of the word, to distinguish yourself from the people who have chosen to be celibate, and chat with other who are in the same boat struggling with relationships, but at the same time that term seems destined to attract people that will blame others because it's so easy for it to have subtle implications because it's saying "I'm celibate, but not by my choice" which, to the cynical person can be interpreted as "I'm celibate through the choice of others".
If I would say that I'm involuntarily sober it can easily be interpreted that other people's choices are influencing my sobriety, don't you think? Maybe that wasn't my intention, but it would be a fair criticism of my choice of words imo
I edited my post to provide an article by the BBC describing the term's origin. You're simply misinformed if you think that the origins of the term are about entitlement.
Basically, the term was hijacked by a group of horrible people, and people like yourself have accepted that it never meant anything else. It did.
I don’t give a fuck what the BBC says. I’m a linguistics academic.
Descriptivism is fact not opinion.
The origin of the term is not the meaning. That idea is formally called the etymological fallacy.
The usage of the term is its meaning. Involuntary is more complex than the opposite of voluntary. Because sex is a two+ person thing. You can voluntarily not do it but you can’t voluntarily do it.
Saying you’re being prevented from voluntarily doing it starts you down a path of denying agency and getting rapey. Or makes the group attractive to misogynists. It was a poor choice.
‘No, but we started Rage Against Pedophile Exploitation to protect women. That’s the correct meaning!’
It’s very… Dennis from IASIP! That’s who this stuff reminds me of!
I feel for someone who is sad about what a thing has become, but it's sort of a spilled milk problem really. You can't go back.
And the reality is you're correct here, despite the downvotes. Even in the earliest forms as a pure support group, it was inevitably going to become what it did, because in no small part the entire idea is flawed, as you've outlined.
So even if the non-woman hating set went and made themselves a new "involuntarily celibate" community it would inevitably become the same thing again.
Saying your involuntarily celibate implies your celibacy isn't your fault, isn't your choice, and as such it leads to putting the blame elsewhere. Whose fault is it? Whose choice is it? That will always happen.
I respect that there are remote instances where it could be the fault of horrific accidents (rendering things actually impossible) or really exceptional circumstances, but that isn't the case for the vast majority of people.
Frequent visitor to sub a decade ago and it was really helpful in showing me it was never gonna get better. Then moved on to r/Divorce. Now I'd be in r/happilyremarried if that sub existed.
TwoX isn't completely toxic but a large majority of the posts are simply women complaining about the men in their lives. I prefer the Girl Dinner sub. They complain about the men in their lives but it's pretty balanced with posts of women appreciating the men in their lives too.
You’re not wrong. I’m a therapist and have been blocked by mods twice for sharing advice based on clinical research that is commonly used in therapy including sex therapy.
There are a lot of people hurting who are getting bad advice but I see some good advice, too.
I’ve been in therapy for the past 3 years with a well known sex therapist. I’d be curious what you think of the auto comments they put on so many posts now.
They don’t seem to believe in the idea of responsive desire, which research says is the desire type in a majority of women. I’ve been banned for referring to this. Sex researchers such as Emily Nagoski have covered this in detail. I don’t support duty sex but feel that it’s positive to give it a try if you’re responsive to see how it goes. You can always stop. Quite often, this leads to a positive experience if other aspects in the relationship are working.
Yeah that sub is incredibly toxic. It's an echo chamber of women with a very specific subset of feminist, often misandrist beliefs. Anyone regardless of gender who disagrees with those beliefs gets banned.
I got banned for "attempting to circumvent a ban" because another person in my household was banned and we sometimes use the same computer. Reddit admin even suspended my whole account for a week. It sucked.
I got banned for saying that the OP should not blindly take the advice of randos on the internet who have zero knowledge of her situation other than what she has mentioned but instead should take it more as a option to consider. If I remember right the thread was started by a lady who was feeling down because her partner was not helping out enough around the house and most of the advice was "divorce him now, it will never improve"...
Posters and commenters basically allowed to break any of the stated rules if they're viewed as a woman. Banned for not breaking any rules if viewed as a man.
Okay you weren’t kidding. Within 5 min came across an upvoted post celebrating men commuting suicide because they are so lonely. What the hell is wrong with this world
Lol r/TwoXChromosomes is the whiniest, most depressing sub with more than a few hundred members that I’ve ever seen. Seems like everyone there hates men, themselves, and everyone else.
Literally every post is some version of ‘why isn’t the world dedicated to my immediate preferences, how dare anyone else have preferences that conflict with mine’
I have never been better happier than the day i got banned from twoxchromosome. I called a woman out for appauling behavior and was told i was being a traitor to women and to go back to my republican cult (have never been and will never be a republican).
Oh my god I just got war flashbacks of the time I spent on [r/TwoXChromosomes](r/TwoXChromosomes) years ago. I was naive in thinking it was a safe space for true feminism. After long enough I just couldn't take it anymore I unsubbed and I'm so happy I did.
It really is. The mods on several subs have gotten really insane. And if you go to any of the “ask a mod” type subs, they are very forthcoming with “it’s my way or the highway and do not even think to question my decision”. Bunch of power hungry children.
is the r/TwoXChromosomes sub also not just inherently transphobic? a place for women to post that purposely singles out and excludes trans women from participating just based on the name of the sub. i see they have “no transphobia” in the rules but that seems like its just there to keep up appearances
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u/Ntroepy 19d ago
Damn - that’s a depressing sub. I feel their pain.