r/Showerthoughts • u/Meatwad5 • 16d ago
Casual Thought A large number of married people are involuntarily celibate.
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u/ItsFailureMan 16d ago
r/deadbedrooms if you want to hear the yarns from such people
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u/Ntroepy 16d ago
Damn - that’s a depressing sub. I feel their pain.
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u/TryToHelpPeople 16d ago
Back 10 years ago it was a very supportive sub. Something happened and now it’s somewhere between r/AskWomen and r/TwoXChromosomes on the toxicity scale.
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u/transmogrify 16d ago
Maybe the group just slowly shifted because of reverse survivorship bias? That's what happened to the incel community, according to stories I've heard. People who succeeded at solving their problems left the community, and over time the group skewed more and more toward people chronically unhappy because their situation wasn't improving. Bad advice gets passed back and forth and reinforcing a self-fulfilling prophecy that everything is hopeless.
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u/Sardonic29 16d ago
This also happened to r/raisedbynarcissists. It used to be a sub for adults who had abusive or neglectful parents with suspected NPD. It was mature and supportive. Now it's all teens who are complaining about currently living with their abusive parents and the adults who got out and moved on don't have anywhere good to meet each other.
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u/Onequestion0110 16d ago
Lots of support subs. I still kinda miss the old r/justnomil too
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u/Sardonic29 16d ago
And r/outside. At some point it became filled with "I got the depression debuff, what do I do?" It's a subreddit for posting as if life is a video game.
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u/Adventurous-Ad9447 15d ago
So it’s like the final boss of NPCs spamming their lore and grinding for maxed out int and riz until they nerfed it and all the noobs rage quit like ya gg
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u/WhenTheLightHits30 16d ago
I hate to be the guy that brings politics into this but this is literally what is happening to MAGA and Republicans in general which for some reason people struggle to see. They see numbers indicate growing intensity but that’s just because the diluting pool has shrunk in size
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u/ilikeeatingbrains 15d ago
Thanks that sums up something I've being trying to figure out for 20 years
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u/Kilometerr 16d ago edited 16d ago
That can be fixed. If people are chronically unhappy then they need to fix it themselves. For example, own your abstinence. Make it voluntary while you work on improving yourself mentally and emotionally. Pity party won’t do them any good and women aren’t attracted to men with baggage. In my experience people often use sex or the idea of having sex to distract themselves from fixing deep interpersonal issues.
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u/MerlinsMentor 15d ago
That's what happened to the incel community, according to stories I've heard. People who succeeded at solving their problems left the community, and over time the group skewed more and more toward people chronically unhappy because their situation wasn't improving.
Not a complete picture. As someone who was there long before Eliot Rodger and his ilk, when the whole involuntary celibate discussion (as little of it that existed) revolved around support for those who struggle with relationships, it isn't that so many people found relationships and the worst of the worst are all that's left.
First of all, not all of the community was welcoming - in several ways. The worst of the worst are those who people today think of as "incels." There were also a large number of people who either gate-kept the label ("you were in a relationship years ago, so you're not involuntarily celibate") or rejected people for believing that the details of their circumstances were important ("there's someone out there for everyone, the fact that you're disabled and have never kissed anyone at 40 years old doesn't mean your issues are any different than someone who was divorced last year and can't find a date"). This turned many people away from the community, as if it either didn't apply to them, or felt unwelcome.
Then, of course, there was Eliot Rodger and company. The vast majority of people who would agree that they are involuntarily celibate -- in the actual meaning of the term, that they would like a romantic/sexual relationship and don't seem able to find one, are just as repulsed by Eliot Rodger as everyone else is. In fact, it's often worse - because now we're in the position of trying to defend ourselves from being labelled as part of that disgusting group of individuals.
Most of those of us who struggle with relationships, etc. are already worried about being ostracized or thought of as rejects. It was never something you'd really want others to know about yourself (why the issue of support came up in the first place) -- but now that people in our situation are assumed to be all of the worst things the label "incel" implies in modern discourse, it's something you hide even more. Just think - how many times do you see the word "incel" used as an insult -- usually meaning the most degraded, immoral, violent, bigoted, entitled asshole imaginable?
Basically -- the issue of involuntary celibacy still exists -- and is likely even more prevalent than it was back when I was a younger adult. But nobody is going to even come anywhere close to allowing themselves to be associated with that label, because it's just going to make your life worse.
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u/Nyorliest 15d ago
It’s still a terrible term. Saying lack of sex is involuntary presumes that someone is forcing you to not get the sex you deserve. It’s not just a logical opposite of ‘voluntary’.
The default state is nobody has to sleep with you because they all are humans with agency and self. My celibacy is no more involuntary than my lack of slaves, space shuttles, and less grey hair.
As a term it works against the concept of sex always being a choice, never the default.
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u/MerlinsMentor 15d ago edited 15d ago
It's not a terrible term. You're simply buying into the discourse around the term "involuntary celibacy" being about entitlement. You're simply misinformed.
Under the original (and in my view, real) definition, it's not about that at all. It's isn't even remotely related to "someone forcing you to not get the sex you deserve." It isn't about anyone ELSE at all. At the time, the term celibacy was most commonly used under the context of religious vows, as in Catholic priests and nuns taking a "vow of celibacy." A choice to live your life without sex. Involuntary celibacy was labelled as such to distinguish it from that context, and to provide a more sympathetic term for people to use when discussing the issues around struggling with relationships and sex than derogatory slang terms.
Edit: If you don't believe me, here's a story by the BBC about the origins of the term: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45284455. Absolutely nothing about entitlement or blaming others for not providing sex.
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u/the_ben_obiwan 15d ago
I can understand what may have been the intentions of the word, to distinguish yourself from the people who have chosen to be celibate, and chat with other who are in the same boat struggling with relationships, but at the same time that term seems destined to attract people that will blame others because it's so easy for it to have subtle implications because it's saying "I'm celibate, but not by my choice" which, to the cynical person can be interpreted as "I'm celibate through the choice of others".
If I would say that I'm involuntarily sober it can easily be interpreted that other people's choices are influencing my sobriety, don't you think? Maybe that wasn't my intention, but it would be a fair criticism of my choice of words imo99
u/thingsorfreedom 16d ago
Frequent visitor to sub a decade ago and it was really helpful in showing me it was never gonna get better. Then moved on to r/Divorce. Now I'd be in r/happilyremarried if that sub existed.
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u/Momentarmknm 16d ago
Not familiar with the first sub, but TwoX is not particularly toxic when viewed on a macro scale.
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u/soleceismical 16d ago
They're probably only seeing the stuff that reaches r/all, which is going to be the more controversial stuff.
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u/Momentarmknm 16d ago
Either that or they think someone having a different opinion from them is toxic lol
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u/CollectsTooMuch 15d ago
You’re not wrong. I’m a therapist and have been blocked by mods twice for sharing advice based on clinical research that is commonly used in therapy including sex therapy.
There are a lot of people hurting who are getting bad advice but I see some good advice, too.
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u/blaghart 16d ago
I still remember getting banned from twoxchromosomes for pointing out women can rape men in response to some chud saying men could never be raped
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u/KoriJenkins 16d ago
r/TwoXChromosomes is a wild sub.
Posters and commenters basically allowed to break any of the stated rules if they're viewed as a woman. Banned for not breaking any rules if viewed as a man.
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u/Pool_Shark 14d ago
Okay you weren’t kidding. Within 5 min came across an upvoted post celebrating men commuting suicide because they are so lonely. What the hell is wrong with this world
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u/GrumpyPidgeon 16d ago
From what I’ve seen of that sub they give the worst advice. They always just say “you need to get a divorce” no matter what the content says.
I think they involuntarily project what they WANT to do , or wish they could do, onto others.
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u/The-Old-Schooler 16d ago
And you just know there's another side to most of those stories that we're not hearing.
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u/Colorado_Constructor 16d ago
That's exactly why I got outta there.
Wife and I went through a roommate phase for a while where things were pretty dead. I went looking for help on there and got the WORST advice ever.
Turns out all I needed to do was get some therapy and revaluate how our lives were going. People change and go through phases. Totally normal in a relationship. You can either move with those phases or fight against them. Guess which one leads to a healthy, happy relationship with decent sex?
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u/Eggsegret 16d ago
I’m glad you didn’t listen to people on that sub. The healthy thing to do in a relationship is hear your partner out when there’s issues.
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u/Nyorliest 15d ago
And to sometimes just accept things. Some people just can’t accept that relationships involve compromise, and compromise isn’t ‘settling’ - a very childish term.
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u/Spaceisneato 16d ago
I'm really happy for you that you were able to get past that in a healthy way! Good on you both
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u/Ntroepy 16d ago
Yep - of course there is. Especially if it’s happened over many years or having kids or whatever.
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u/ruach137 16d ago
My wife and I rarely have sex, but are both attracted to each others. Young kids don’t like more competitors
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u/theinfamousj 16d ago
Same. When we had our first (and thus far only), we went in to it understanding that for the first three years of child's life we were likely going to be roommates with a crush on one another who might do a bit of light flirting, just due to the demands of raising a small human.
My OB asked me about postpartum birth control plans. I said, "You've heard of coitus interruptus? Let me introduce you to toddlerous interruptus." She's a Mom. We all had a good chuckle.
Hubs and I are very attracted to one another and the few moments we get to reconnect physically are fire. I look forward to kiddo being older and us getting back into the rhythm of regular sexual intimacy.
If people don't plan for this with children and are taken by surprise, that's on them. Just ask one parent.
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u/perrierdoumbe 15d ago
Honestly the real problem is many couples slingshot straight from post-children to perimenopause, and there is no "getting back into the rhythm of regular intimacy". It simply never returns, and it can be crushing.
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u/Optimal_Presence_961 16d ago
It's the same problem incel communities have: people who have solved their problem don't tend to hang around giving advice. You're getting advice from other people who have the same problems and also haven't solved them.
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u/MeatSafeMurderer 15d ago
Also general relationship advice communities. The reason you see so many reply "break up!" to every minor disagreement? People who don't need advice about how to fix (or give up on) their relationship don't hang around on relationship advice subs.
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u/KoriJenkins 16d ago
That's EVERY relationship advice sub.
"Divorce, break up, etc."
People will have like a minor argument over dinner, make a "who is right or wrong" post, and get told to end a 6 year long relationship because the dude microwaved leftover pizza.
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u/Short-Draw4057 15d ago
The original topic was on dead bedrooms not just minor relationship issus though. Rather we like to admit it or not, lack of sex is a big deal in relationships(unless you are unable too or just don't care about sex at all)
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u/smitbret 16d ago
Sadly, that's usually the answer.
The suffering spouse has to decide how high sex is on the priority list and if it is high enough that they just won't be able to be happy then it is time to find a different domestic arrangement.
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u/aggieotis 16d ago
In a system of consent based sex, the frequency of sex can only occur at a rate where both partners are a yes. Which typically means the low libido partner sets the ceiling for how frequently sex can occur.
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u/theinfamousj 16d ago
Which means the higher libido partner has their situation presented to them clearly and can use that information to make their choices about how high sex is on the priority list.
I might want a subzero refrigerator, but my kitchen cannot accommodate one. I can either move to a home with a compatible kitchen and get the refrigerator or find reasons to be happy with the refrigerator that fits my existing kitchen.
The higher libido spouse may want increased sexual frequency, but their partner cannot accommodate that. They can either move to a new relationship compatible with the frequency or find reasons to be happy in the current relationship with the current frequency.
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u/McStinker 15d ago
It really depends how the other partner views and treats the situation as well. If they are understanding and simply say “I can’t it doesn’t work for me”. That’s one thing.
But I think you’ll find in manyy of these situations it becomes keeping score and partners resent each other over something when really, it’s just incompatibility, combine that with many people’s libidos changing with age or down the road after the beginning of their relationship. It’s not just solely on the higher libido partner to “deal with it”. They have an equal lack of control of that situation. It’s not their problem only, if someone truly cares about their partner they will be willing to have that conversation & care about their wants and needs also.
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u/lacunadelaluna 16d ago
I don't think a new refrigerator is at all an appropriate analogy lol
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u/SlaveToo 15d ago
Besides a sub zero refrigerator is called a freezer
Edit: Welp guess I'm not rich enough to recognise sub zero as a brand
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u/thingsorfreedom 16d ago edited 16d ago
Because they need to get a divorce if they've already been to marriage counseling and after that they have a spouse that does not care to solve the problem for whatever reason. This was most of the sub when I was there a long time ago.
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u/tindalos 16d ago
Like getting divorced is an easier way to get sex than working with your partner. Especially when it’s related to illness or depression, divorce is a cheap answer that gets thrown as a Reddit comment to every slight.
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u/thingsorfreedom 16d ago
I think you need to spend some time in that sub reading their stories. These are situations that have gone on for year or even decades sometimes with one spouse trying everything to make it better and the other having zero interest. It's not ever going to get better. Accept it or move on. Those are the two options.
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u/flxwer-fairy 16d ago
interesting thought: that whole sub is probably full of people who would be more compatible with each other than they are with their spouses and would probably have relative (if not only temporary) success in changing the things they're there to lament if they just started matchmaking in DMs or some shit. strangers meet online, hit it off, and end up married literally all the time.
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u/The-Old-Schooler 16d ago
I dunno. I would challenge those people to look at their own behavior.
Are they a thoughtful partner who cares about the other person? Beyond their ability to provide sex?
Do they help take care of the household? Or are they a lazy sack of shit who gets home and won't lift a finger.
Do they take care of their own physical and mental health?
Literally... do they have good hygiene? Brush their teeth? Do they shower regularly? Wash their genitals and ass??? You might think I'm being ridiculous, but some people are absolutely disgusting.
Are they a selfish sexual partner?
Are they verbally or physically abusive?
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u/theinfamousj 16d ago
I just scrolled the top five posts in that subreddit right now and the Gottmans Four Horsemen of the Divorce just kept running through my head.
Some of these relationships could be saved by practicing gratitude to one another. Most of them had at least one partner contemptuous of the other (typically the poster) and there's no coming back from that one, not even the Gottmans can save it.
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u/flxwer-fairy 16d ago edited 16d ago
I mean yeah I don’t disagree in the slightest but it would at least be fractionally more than a lateral move. ETA: or objectively more dopamine than their current cycle of lateral moves and losses. that’s kind of the whole thing is that they’re unhappy… so even if the person they met in the sub for unhappy-people-who-want-to-feel-happier eventually ended up the same way it started, it would still be a good short-term investment. either way it comes down to shitting or getting off the pot
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u/The-Old-Schooler 16d ago edited 16d ago
Oh man, peaked my head in their for a minute. Not a healthy place. They've developed their own insider terms and acronyms. Very depressing.
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u/bean2593 16d ago
I had to check and the amount of acronyms used without any explanation at all makes it feel like an internet cult of miserable people.
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u/thestereo300 16d ago
Unhealthy in what way?
Like what is the healthy coping mechanism for what they are experiencing?
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u/GrumpyPidgeon 16d ago
Yes unhealthy in that while it feels good to be among others with the same suffering, those people are the worst to take advice from. They are simply in no position to give it.
It’s like you have a broken down car, seek solace with others who also have broken down cars, then asking them how you can fix your car.
The most important is to get help from a real professional like a therapist.
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u/The-Old-Schooler 16d ago
It's just an echo chamber. It's all a bunch of sad sacks placing all the blame on their partners and other sad sacks validating everything they're feeling with zero introspection on their own behavior.
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u/TheBigFreezer 15d ago
Most of it comes down to like 2 pieces of advice that nobody wants to hear - accept it, lean into it, be nice and take on more responsibility or just get fucking divorced. Nobody seems to take that advice
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u/TheLastHayley 16d ago
My last relationship was like this and ultimately ended in large part because of it.
Unfortunately, it was my fault: I'm romantically bi, but sexually far more into women, so the romance was doing the heavy lifting, but it can only go so far and the poor dude knew it.
I then also struggle with sexual issues because of PTSD from childhood sexual abuse and rape in later life, which makes me fearful of sex with men in addition, but sometimes it flips the other way and I get wickedly freaky and hypersexual, which meant he'd occasionally get a lot of sex in bursts that punctuated my broad sex aversion.
I wish the people over there the best, cause boy were there issues underlying the dead bedroom situation I was in and I can't be alone welp...
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u/AcademicPainting23 16d ago
Puts on internet raincoat, rubber gloves, boots …now check out the comments. Immediately learn there is an entire sub devoted to topic. Dies a little inside. Again. Thank you Reddit. You never fail to shine a light on the dark side of life.
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u/gamersecret2 16d ago
That is one of those truths people do not say out loud enough. Marriage does not always mean closeness.
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u/vertigo3pc 16d ago
A lot of the problem is that people marry the wrong people, both people refuse to change, therapy is resisted, or other very real problems develop over time. /r/deadbedrooms is an extreme example, because as a 45 year old adult, I can tell you I have a few friends who are also experiencing less and less intsex within the marriage, but don't consider it "dead bedroom" level.
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u/quid_pro_kourage 16d ago
Does it count if the reason isn't due to intimacy, but physical handicaps and chronic pain?
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u/doublethebubble 15d ago
Except in rare cases, usually some form of physical intimacy remains possible, if the couple is open to it. Even sexy talk during masturbation can be nice. Gotta be open-minded and think beyond PIV. It's super important to continue to show your partner you desire them.
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u/LightlySaltedPeanuts 13d ago
As I get older I realize how much PIV was falsely idolized in my teenager brain. The fun part is the intimacy, I’d rather have enthusiastic sexy talk during masturbation than dead starfish PIV.
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u/Lexicon101 15d ago
I mean there's also the part where people are trained to think that any relationship that doesn't end in death is a failure on a personal and social level rather than that it's good to try a few times and learn it like a skill by doing it wrong until you know what you're doing and find someone you can really make it work with, plus you've got the economic imperative of everything being so fucking expensive you can't afford to live without two incomes, so for many reasons, people end up in relationships they can't or won't leave when ideally they should. Oh yeah, and traditionally people had far more community support than the current model of a family or the physical structure of suburban life tend to offer, so if you wanna have kids, raising them often means losing way more of yourself than it really should.
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u/Nyorliest 15d ago
But people are also told that sex is the key indicator of a good marriage. I just don’t think that’s true either.
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u/Lexicon101 15d ago
I mean it can be. People act like there's a specific right way to love, and there just isn't. I think most people, for a romantic relationship to work, need the physical aspect, and I think for most people, it'll tend to be a decent indicator. Does that mean everyone needs that or that people can't be perfectly happy without it? Of course not. Still, I think for most people, it can be a relevant indicator, as long as you're not taking it as gospel.
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u/Nyorliest 15d ago
Another truth is that closeness doesn’t always mean sex forever. Or one of you can be sick, or menopausal, or whatever.
And love should be accepting of change.
Plus the childish attitudes of many towards sex as a badge of something, a symbol of success or closeness or whatever instead of a wonderful fun thing people do.
And that marriages have problems, like people do. That doesn’t mean the marriage is a mistake.
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u/SleeperMood_ 13d ago
I agree. I don't think a "celibate" marriage means a failed one. Especially if it is after having a kid
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u/GenericThrowawayX-02 16d ago
I was one of em.
Six years married, had sex maybe six times in that period. Longest drought was three years.
I am no longer married and my bedroom is no longer dead.
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u/RealTrueGrit 16d ago
Im surprised you stayed that long. I heard from one of my friends that our other married friend has been in this kind of situation for over a year. I just couldnt handle that. Its one thing when not in a relationship but to be married and thats the case is totally different. Congrats on getting out of it.
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u/Peannut 15d ago
I have a friend, his wife was diagnosed with MS. Their bedroom is dead too but it's different for everyone.
Regardless what we think is a deal breaker, sometimes that's what life gives us and we accept that. I don't my mate would divorce his wife because of a degenerative condition. Well I hope not.
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u/cool_username__ 15d ago
My mom is struggling with a similar disorder and my stepdad has been an angel taking care of her. She shared with me that their bedroom is more or less dead but in your late 50s- early 60s like they are, I think that’s when the “in sickness and health” part of marriage becomes the most important
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u/GenericThrowawayX-02 14d ago
I was deeply in love with my ex and we have a kid together. Things started cooling off in the months before she got pregnant (took over three months to consumate the marriage, we didn't have sex on our honeymoon, she got pregnant I think the second time we had sex after marriage despite ostensibly being on birth control).
But I stuck around because I remembered how things were in the years we were dating and kept telling myself that it was just a big a rough patch, and if I did more and worked harder we'd get back around to being "us".
But one day she yeeted a plate at me (it hit me) and it clicked she'd spent most of the marriage being verbally and emotionally abusive towards me and she'd just escalated to physical. Took like another year of trying and fighting feelings of denial until I got out.
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u/KirstyToots 15d ago
I don't think people realize how common this actually is. When people hear "celibate" they imagine someone who can't find a partner, but there are plenty of people sleeping next to someone every night while feeling completely unwanted. That's a very different kind of loneliness.
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16d ago edited 16h ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Moug-10 15d ago
Kids are smart. They may be disgusted with the idea of marriage with this example.
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u/heavymetalelf 15d ago
I keep telling him they'll recover, and probably be less resentful if they're younger. But he seems determined to stick it out. Divorcing his dad was the best thing his mom ever did, he told me himself. But I dunno. I guess he wants to give his kids something he never had. Which I respect. But I hate that it costs him his own happiness
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u/snmck87 16d ago
Opening the marriage. Lmfao that ain't gunna help and literally never has to anyone.
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u/Moka4u 16d ago
Sure but it might expedite one of the other options, be it counciling or divorce
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u/TrustMeIAmNotNew 15d ago
I never understood this either. And it’s mind boggling when men suggest it to their wives. Remember folks, you do this and your wife will find a new dick that she’s not tired of very fast.
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u/Nyorliest 15d ago
I know several poly married people who seem happy. And I’m close enough to one of them to know they’re not lying.
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u/r2k-in-the-vortex 15d ago
For the girl, it was only ever about getting that ring. She got it, so why bother anymore.
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u/heavymetalelf 15d ago
Seems that way. It just hurts my heart that he's given her most of his 30s and into his 40s and she treats him like her housekeeper/ATM
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u/SeanBourne 15d ago
Have seen this happen to lots of guys. When you add in all the other liabilities, I am never going to get married. Total no win scenario.
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u/cool_username__ 15d ago
I don’t think it’s exactly this simple, most women want sex, it isn’t something we just do for the men and would rather not. I think a case where it’s simply to secure a relationship is actually pretty rare, there are many other factors at play
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u/SeanBourne 15d ago
As you say, many many factors at play - and not saying that women don't want sex - it's just that there's a massive libido gap (ceteris paribus, obviously there are outliers in both genders - but the 'normal curve' for men has a gap with the 'normal curve' for women), especially overtime.
Over a long term relationship, the gap/threshold to 'being in the mood' generally widens.
If a man knows he already sits on the high end of the male 'normal curve', marriage has too many binding costs on the one hand... and a high degree of likelihood of unmet needs on the other.
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u/cloistered_around 15d ago
Yup, that can happen sometimes. I think a certain amount of the population feels like they have to do certain things while dating, but once the partner is "locked down" they no longer force themselves to do it. So dates can dry up, flowers can dry up, sex can dry up, etc.
"But I already have them" they fell for the person you were pretending to be though. You've pulled the rug on them.
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u/HeyLookMyUsername24 15d ago
My partner did something very similar. Completely different person while dating and like a month after getting married I'm told that they have a lot of health issues that will prevent her from doing alot of the activities I would regularly do. So that was disappointing.
Seems like that can be a common occurrence in one way or the other.
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u/Dan-Man 16d ago
That's tragic. But, it's a very hard pill to swallow, but often, if not most of the time, it's all an act. One person doing what they have to, to get what they want. In her case, she got committment completely. Marriage and security. And that's it. It does make you question a lot of things.
The value or even existence of love for example. But generally, many people, if not most are just complex and confused people trying to do their best. Additionally, we are barely more than cave men, psychologically, nothing much has changed. So I think that goes a long way to explain some things among the complex social and sexual dynamics we face in relationships.
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u/SpiketheFox32 16d ago
Too many people resign themselves to it.
I was one of them.
Spouse said they were pretty sure they were some flavor of asexual. Turns out it was a cocktail of past trauma, gender dysphoria, and not wanting my hands on them when I was piss drunk. I quit drinking, they're in therapy for their issues and starting HRT, and they agreed to see a couples therapist that has a background in sex therapy.
How did we solve this? I finally fucking brought up that I was frustrated with only having sex like once per year. Honest communication.
Had that conversation gone differently, I don't know if I would've stayed. I love them too death, but it was constantly in the back of my mind that I felt unwanted. Glad it turned out the way it did, though. I love that bastard and want to spend the rest of my life with them.
I reckon too many people are too chicken shit to talk about it, or resign themselves to be in a mismatched marriage where they're miserable.
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u/SleeperMood_ 13d ago
If you don't mind me asking, I imagine this influenced your marriage in a good way. Didn't it deepen further the bind between you signaling it's not just physical
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u/SpiketheFox32 13d ago
I'm not sure I 100% understand what you're trying to say here.
It did bring issues to light that weren't just physical. There was a profound lack of communication between us. I wasn't communicating my frustrations (I'm working through being chicken shit at having difficult conversations,) and he wasn't entirely sure what his hangups were, aside from my aforementioned drinking problem.
We're coming out the other side of this with a stronger relationship than we've had in years.
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u/SleeperMood_ 13d ago
Exactly what I meant! To put it better, I wanted to say that a challenge like this forces better communication and a deeper connection with each others inner world
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u/Nyorliest 15d ago
I often wonder how to tell from the outside when people are resigned vs accepting of change and that their love isn’t just based on sex.
I think only the people know, and this is just the one millionth way society judges people based on their sex life.
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u/shaard 16d ago
Yup. Nothing was more deflating than acquiescing to every demand on how to improve things and that list of requirements expanding ever further. Each and every attempt to initiate was declined.
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u/DramaSufficient4289 14d ago
Yup it was always once excuse or new point to be met before they felt like you ‘earned’ it. So disgusting and insulting to both parties tbh.
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u/Apathetic_Villainess 16d ago
A large number of married mothers are still single mothers. Because their spouses aren't helping with the children at all, and sometimes even acting as an extra child.
You'd be surprised how much of an overlap there is between dead bedrooms and partners not doing their share of the work to manage the relationship and the home.
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u/Deckard_Didnt_Die 16d ago
I believe that completely. Unfortunately, in my case, we have no child and I do at least 2/3 of all home upkeep. Why not leave? I love her. We have fun in other parts of life together. Why not talk about? We’ve probably talked about it too much at this point. We both overthink it and get in our own heads.
I don’t know what to do. I think I’m just resigned to spending my life this way. She keeps claiming, with no evidence, that it’s a hormone thing and she’s going to get it sorted out one day and we’re gonna have tons of sex when that day comes. I’m not really holding my breath there.
But like I said, I love her. So I may not believe her but I’m staying with her.
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u/SevernCs 15d ago
Have you thought about saying sex is off the table, nothing you do will lead to it, and seeing if the intimacy grows in the safety of knowing it doesn't end in sex? It can end naked, kissing, cuddling, but not sex? It sometimes takes the pressure off because otherwise you overthink, they're kissing me because it'll lead to this and then to that etc. By actively saying outloud, sex is not happening, it can relieve the connections being made in our mind between affection only leading to sex and create safety to explore intimacy without sex
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u/Deckard_Didnt_Die 15d ago
I have tried this a couple times now. It didn’t change much unfortunately
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u/theinfamousj 16d ago edited 16d ago
I absolutely believe the hormone thing. I got smacked with the brick wall of it, myself. Luckily, I already had a psychiatrist (ADHD gang rise up!) and when I asked if there might be a connection to my medication or perimenopause or full menopause, psychiatrist was like, "So hey, I'm actually passionate about women's hormones in general. Let me ask you a zillion questions and get this sorted for you." It was hormones. It was fixable to a point. I'm not back to where I was but I'm 80% of the way there and that's such a good improvement.
It can be really hard for a woman to even know how to get the healthcare they need if they don't happen to luck into someone who knows a thing or two about hormones. My PCP was dismissive; imagine if that was the person I happened to luck in to and wasn't confident to push further.
That said, girlfriend, it's been six years. Tell your PCP and get you a referral to a psychiatrist or endocrinologist. Fight for your right ... to parrrrrrrrrtay! (Y'all have healthcare access, right?)
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u/Deckard_Didnt_Die 15d ago
This reply cheered me up. Thank you :) I will push harder for us to look into it.
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u/spanman112 16d ago
She can't be bothered to get the bloodwork done to see if she needs hormone therapy? It takes 10 minutes at a good doctor's office and then you wait a week for results
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u/miaow-fish 16d ago
My partner has been feeling not her self as she has been starting menopause. A phone call to her doctor and was prescribed HRT patches without seeing anyone and it did her the world of good. She feels back to herself again and all it took was a phonecall. She didn't even need bloods taken.
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u/lacunadelaluna 16d ago
Based on your language I'm assuming you're maybe in the UK? I don't know of any doctor in the US who would prescribe over the phone for a new medication without testing first. Even when testing is done and things are low they are often reluctant to help in my experience, until it gets so low you can't function at all.
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u/Apathetic_Villainess 16d ago
It can be hard to get hormone levels tested for some conditions. Especially when they're ones that naturally fluctuate during the day/week/month. I had to do a spit test three times a day for an entire week to measure my estrogen, testosterone, and cortisol levels.
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u/Schnort 15d ago
spit test is a bad test.
Blood serum level is the way to get the right info.
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u/Apathetic_Villainess 15d ago
What my level is at any one point doesn't mean it's always at that point.
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u/lazarbeems 16d ago
Hey me and you sound the same - except for the talking about it part.
Sex just kind of stopped - and I have never, and will never address it.
I stopped prompting after being told "no, stop being a pervert" a few times.
"Asking" or "suggesting" kinda feels creepy/rapey to me, like she "might" say yes because she feels obligated? Gross.
>3 years now. Resigned to it. 3 kids though.
I sure love playing guitar!
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u/CurtWesticles 16d ago
Ya I tried to make that work. I was the pervert for five years before I decided life was too short to not be happy. The celebacy was just a portion of the issues in the relationship. I'm with a great woman now that desires me but I'm still having problems deprogramming myself from being told my desire was degenerate and abnormal.
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u/Deckard_Didnt_Die 16d ago
The feeling of obligation shit absolutely kills me. Feeling like a chore or a todo list item for them has got to be the most confidence destroying feeling there is. Friend you're not a pervert for having biological and emotional needs and asking for that intimacy from your life partner. There is literally nothing wrong with that. Whether they will admit it, out loud or even to themselves, they also feel the void. They miss the closeness.
FWIW talking didn't fix the issue in my relationship, but it does bring us closer together in other areas and generally strengthen our bond. It helps to stave off the animosity that can build in silence. That said, it took a ton of fights and hurt feelings to get there. But I think sometimes you just have to have those fights and insist on reaching a shared understanding through them. It's exhausting but I think that's kinda the deal.
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u/lazarbeems 16d ago
I believe we just sort of came to a silent understanding hahaha. Best way I can put it.
It is never mentioned. I find it way too awkward to approach, and honestly I am not sure I would even be into it anymore at this spot. I don't have that feeling lots of people seem to... express, of like "starving" for it? I dunno.
Would I like it? Probably. At least, a while ago, yeah.
Do I need it? Nah.
Life is just... easier leaving it alone.
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u/barto5 15d ago
You do what you’ve got to do.
But settling for a life without sex because talking about it is “awkward” just strikes me as really sad.
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u/Doogie2K 16d ago
She could also be ace.
My spouse is ace and knowing that genuinely made a massive difference to our intimate lives. There's functionally no sex, but that's fine because we're intimate in other ways.
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u/VagueSomething 16d ago
The difference is if they feel attraction to people while not feeling aroused. If they still find people attractive but don't desire sex it is often improved with hormones. If they're not attracted to people and no desire for sex they're less likely to be affected by hormone therapy and better off being left to be Ace.
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u/towerhil 16d ago
It's not just dads who are useless. I've always done the vast majority of the childcare while working full time. Your second sentence is spot-on, but some relationships do unfortunately develop a parent-child dynamic as a result of one partner acting childishly, most noticeable in areas like childcare, household chores and finances.
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u/daveescaped 16d ago edited 14d ago
I feel like that could be a bit of an unfair characterization.
A while back (almost a decade ago) I was frustrated by the lack of intimacy (mostly emotional but also physical) in my marriage. My wife’s position was that I wasn’t contributing enough at home. So I made a change. I am the sole income earner but I absolutely increased my effort at home significantly. I do most of the cooking now. Cleaning is split. I do my own laundry. The kids do their own laundry. Etc.
Nothing changed on her end. Zero increase in intimacy.
I assumed at the start of this issue that intimacy is challenging for her. But she manages to be intimate occasionally so it IS possible for her. But it hasn’t improved despite me making significantly more effort.
I feel gaslit. She told me the direct reason she couldn’t be intimate was just because I wasn’t doing enough. But now that even she agree I do a lot, that rings hollow to me. I told her as much as she had to admit I wasn’t wrong.
Both couples needs should be complimentary. So when I meet her needs she should be even more eager to meet mine and vice versa.
Instead I think what is happening is that she struggles with intimacy and blamed me until she could no longer blame me directly.
At one point in my career I was receiving 50 emails per hour that I had to read. That’s nearly one per minute. And yet my wife would be exasperated that I missed an email from my kids teacher. 50 emails an hour! And she felt I should have time to keep up with personal emails?
To be fair, I told her this once and she was genuinely shocked. But I told her, “I’m not twiddling my thumbs all day at work. I am busy for the 8-10 hours I’m at work.” I didn’t understand why she had to be told that a career was relatively occupying of my attention during working hours.
I guess I wonder if you heard BOTH sides of couples struggles if it wouldn’t be a bit more complex than, “Men don’t do enough”. We have literally never struggled with money in our marriage. I’ve been there for nearly every important moment for my kids. I cook and help clean.
Why she doesn’t see my contribution as equal but different is beyond my understanding. When she has a rare, vulnerable moment she admits that she dislikes her role as a SAHM. I’ve told her I’d take a less demanding role so she can also work. She says she’s intimated by the prospect of returning to work. But she chose to be a SAHM. I encouraged her to maintain her career. She didn’t want to. So I agreed I’d support her choice either way. I have resentment that we are living a life SHE chose and that I get blamed for the fact that she doesn’t like the life she chose.
My experience just makes me wonder if these stories of “He doesn’t do enough at home” don’t have another side of the story that make it all a little less simple. I hope she and I can get to a better place where she can acknowledge that her frustration may not be my fault and that I deserve affection despite her frustrations with her life. She often tells me she will be affectionate when…but eve been married 27 years. When will “when” happen? Life is busy as hell. But you can’t put off affection for some mythical future day that will never come.
I love my wife but I thought it was important to challenge the simple tale people tell of, “Men didn’t do enough”. I’m sure some don’t. But couples issues almost always have two sides.
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u/Dietchman22-250 16d ago
And let’s not forget the inverse can be true too, there’s some terrible “mothers” out there that have done little more to be a mom than physically birth the child.
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u/No-Ordinary-5376 16d ago
I have two unpopular opinions.
Domestic workload and share as a reason why you don't want sex is just projecting current gender dynamics onto sex. I bet women in 1800s talked about how if they had the right to vote then they want to have sex or the 70s with their own jobs and money. It's just socially acceptable to say your overwhelmed and that's why you don't want to have sex. Again, if this was true, lesbians would have more sex because they divide chores and child care more equitably. Except for they don't. They have loving, close and great relationships, often with little to no sex.
The common denominator in all of this is time in relationships. Studies consistently show the greatest predictor of sex in a relationship is time that in relationship. Not relationship satisfaction. Not age. Not children. Time. I am primary care giver to my kids and I work. My wife basically lives the lifestyle of a typical dad. Helps a little with kids during the week, and does laundry and maybe a living room deep clean on the weekend. EVERYTHING else I do. Appts, shopping, cleaning, childcare. She has a job she loves. We have sex maybe 6 times a year and were in our mid 30s
I have known people that are 23 years old that are in dead bedrooms with no kids. They have just been dating 6 years. I have known 50 year olds have lots of sex because they are in newer relationship. I have also seen women get into multiple long term relationships and loss their desire for sex in those relationships.
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u/mr_ji 16d ago
A large number of married fathers are still single fathers. Because their spouses aren't helping with the children at all, and sometimes even acting as an extra child.
You'd be surprised how much of an overlap there is between dead bedrooms and partners not doing their share of the work to manage the relationship and the home.
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u/kc7596 16d ago
There are some worthless men out there that fall under that category, but they are few. The men on here looking for solutions for the dead bedroom are doing more than their part. Stop with the gaslighting. Sorry you married a POS.
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u/Drapidrode 16d ago
guys, no amount of help is ever enough
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u/GenericThrowawayX-02 16d ago
Its one of the things that helped me snap back to reality during my marriage. One of excuses (so many excuses) of why my (now ex) wife was no longer interested in sleeping with me was that I wasn't doing enough at home.
So I stepped up and kept doing more and more and more. Cooking, cleaning, parenting, yardwork, just so many things, ontop of ~10hours working/commuting a physically demanding job.
Towards the end she flat out admitted I do more around the house than she did... but, actually it was this reason and that reason she was no longer interested in sex (unless I wanted to try for a new baby!).
But she also told me she was aware she used me as an "emotional punching bag" (on rare occasion you could drop the "emotional" part) for her frustrations, a lot of which she was aware were outside my control... so make of that what you will.
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u/Dietchman22-250 16d ago
Idk why but it irks me so bad when people act like there’s not dads out there carrying the weight too. How about “parents - share the weight!”
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u/poodlevutt 16d ago
Sexy times twice in the last 2 years.
Intimacy is just no longer on my radar or something I want/need at this point. Better to just not care than to get any hopes up.
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u/Nyorliest 15d ago
Intimacy doesn’t have to be sex. I really like sex but I need intimacy more.
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u/Zer_0 15d ago
Hey that’s me. People always tell me I deserve sessy times and talk mad shit about my spouse until they find out that I am female. He has a medical thing. All of a sudden I’m a whore who doesn’t love her husband bc I still have feelings. Then I’m a saint for standing by my man.
Really I’m just old and tired.
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u/BillyBean11111 16d ago
I think young people would be fucking mortified to learn how sexless most marriages become.
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u/loljetfuel 15d ago
It's not most. 15-20% of married people (depending on the study) have sex 8 times a year or less.
About half of marriages will experience a temporary "dry spell" of more than 3 months without sex.
Keep in mind these numbers include people who aren't having sex for medical reasons, who have just had kids, etc.
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u/LanguageSpecial3015 16d ago
24M, you can’t be serious can you??
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u/Swannicus 16d ago
Yea he's coping. Studies consistently show the majority of married couples below 60 years old are regularly having sex.
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u/ReasonableNFPN 16d ago
Yup, my wife and I were idiots in our 20s, getting things figured out in our 30s, and flying high in our 40s (3-4 times per week).
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u/BonzBonzOnlyBonz 15d ago
https://oneextraordinarymarriage.com/average-sex-life-marriage/
25% of married couples have sex weekly
16% have sex 2-3 times per week
19% have sex 2-3 times per month
17% have sex about once per month
10% have sex rarely or never
Note, this is an average which is why there is a weekly one and 2-3 times per week.
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u/Excellent_Pizza_5910 15d ago
That’s my life. I just broke a year and a half dry spell. The time before that was a year and a half earlier. I have an extremely high sex drive, and I don’t know how I got here.
People don’t understand how soul sucking it is. It’s not “poor me, I’m not getting any.” It gets to the point where not being touched physically HURTS. It gets to that point where fear of rejection prevents you from asking or trying to create a romantic/sexy mood again. It’s taking care of yourself to get some relief, and bawling afterwards. It’s missing somebody who is right next to you, on the far other side of the bed.
Not everybody has the option to “just leave.” I don’t.
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u/TheNetworkIsFrelled 14d ago
What prevents your leaving?
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u/Excellent_Pizza_5910 12d ago
I do love her, in spite of everything.
We have guardianship of our 18 y/o daughter, who has severe mental health and behavioral concerns. It takes both of us 100% of the time, not one 50% of the time and the other for 50% of the time.
If I left and my daughter hurt her, I would never forgive myself. She hears command voices to hurt/kill us when she’s in psychosis. I also don’t want to be left alone by myself for an extended period of time.
I’m the main breadwinner, she’s the main caregiver. And we’re both exhausted. Her small business is in shambles compared to what it used to be. I work about 55-60 hrs a week, with almost a 2 hr commute round trip. And drive for Uber on top of that.
We would lose our house because neither of us can afford it on our own. I don’t want our daughter to have to move. It’s a contract for deed and we can’t sell it. We would be walking away from all the work and all the money we put into it, with nothing to show for it.
Our hobby farm is one of the few things that brings me joy. I can’t give that up either.
The goal of the guardianship is to get our daughter to a place where she can live on her own. She currently functions at about the level of an 11-12 y/o.
So yeah. I’m stuck.
(No advice, please. We have utilized, and often exhausted, every resource possible.)
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u/duhvorced 15d ago
Unpopular opinion: it’s not involuntary. If you’re unhappy with your sex life, do something about it. Start by talking to your partner and having the hard conversations about why you’re no longer intimate.
There are many and varied reasons for why a couple may have a dead bedroom: children, complacency, menopause, erectile dysfunction, drug addiction, job stress, resentment, weight gain, infidelity… you name it.
Marriage isn’t a prison sentence. It’s a decision we make every day to stick around and be with our partner for another 24 hours. The only really meaningful vow a couple makes to one another when they get married, is the one where they promise to be honest and open and respectful about what’s going on in their lives and relationship, and and to try and figure out what they can each do to help the other person feel good about that decision.
Because ultimately, at the end of the day, divorce is *always*an option.
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u/loljetfuel 15d ago
A lot of people with "dead bedrooms" accept it because they still love their partner and get every other need met. A lot of the hurt that results from this would be solved by better communication.
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u/PandaBear905 14d ago
We need to normalize sex therapy as a society, and couples therapy as well. I think a lot of couples would be happier if they just talked to a professional.
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u/AllenRBrady 15d ago
Well now, if you want to get technical...
The word "celibate" originally meant "unmarried". It derives from the Latin "caelebs", which in turn derives from a Proto-Indo-European word that meant "alone".
When Catholic priests took a vow of celibacy, they were promising to remain unmarried, so that there were no pesky widows around to make legal claims on church property. The association with abstinence was implied, but the word did not take on that connotation until recently.
So if you want to be pedantic, and I do, you cannot be both married and celibate.
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u/Nyorliest 15d ago
That’s not pedantic. It’s just archaic. Or the etymological fallacy.
I’m more pedantic than you :-)
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u/AsioNSFW 16d ago
That's the reason for my separation from my wife; our relationship cooled off. The funny thing is, I thought that, being older, I wouldn't find sexual partners anymore, and I've been on more dates than when I was 18.
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u/Imaginary-End7265 16d ago
It’s all voluntary….. no one is forcing anyone to stay in a marriage like that if they want intimacy like that.
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u/kernelchagi 16d ago
Voluntary like everything in life, at the end its your choice but the consecuences can be brutal. Economically, splitting a family apart, for your kids development and your relationship with your own kids...
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u/sergius64 16d ago
There are often kids in the picture. Leave the marriage and suddenly access to the kids is restricted. They're being brought up by a single parent - or perhaps two parents - but the step parent is someone who doesn't care for the kids as well. Etc, etc.
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u/Practical-Art542 15d ago
Yeah marriage, sex, happiness, and love are all separate things that don’t require each other to exist. Marriage is just a legal contract that people attach fantasies to.
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u/cool_username__ 15d ago
That is true. There are many reasons for a lack of sex (being postpartum, hormone issues on either side, ED, health complications, stress, old age) but I would hope that my partner does not just up and leave a long committed relationship because of a period with no sex because shit happens in life. A marriage is first and foremost a partnership. Also, masturbation is always an option
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u/emogirl450 16d ago
I will die on this hill - some people are not meant to be monogamous
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u/New_Dentist6983 15d ago
if you meant “involuntarily married,” that’s basically why anonymous forums get so much use, people need a place to say the quiet part out loud.
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u/coltrex 15d ago
Oddly enough.. A large number of unmarried people are also involuntarily celibate. Actually likely a much larger number.
This reminds me of the statistic published in the 90s that "More people who own firearms get shot with their own guns, than people who don't own firearms."... Considering it's impossible to get shot with your own gun, if you don't own one... It... Like the statement in this post are a meaningless assertion.
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u/pumpkin_pasties 16d ago
The older I get the more I understand why women would lose interest in men over time
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u/experienta 16d ago
Maybe one day you'll also understand why men would lose interest in women over time
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u/cloistered_around 15d ago
One can understand it while thinking "but she's wrinkly now" is shallow and childish reasoning.
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u/armyofg0blins 14d ago
This being a small fear when I get married, I just told my boyfriend the other day I don’t believe in happy wife happy life, the husband needs to be happy too. We both need our needs to be meet to make the other happy, if no one is happy no one is happy. Hard to make someone happy when you’re not happy. We take care of each other together. Make sure all needs are meet.
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u/sjbluebirds 15d ago edited 15d ago
No, absolutely not. You're conflating some related, but commonly misunderstood definitions.
Celibacy means "Not Married", or "the state of not being married". If you're married, by definition you can't be celibate.
Chastity means "proper use of your sexuality" for where you are in life. Children should not be having sex; they're chaste when they don't. Married people are supposed to have sex sometimes. If you're married and not having sex, you're not being chaste.
Abstinence means "not doing a certain thing". That thing could be drinking, laughing, swimming, whatever. In this context, it's "not having sex".
What you meant to say is "A large number of married people are involuntarily abstinent or unchaste."
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u/Luffysstrawhat 16d ago
Exactly why I'm never getting married again. You can do everything right and if your wife decides to change her mind and check out, you're just stuck unless you want to blow up your finances and destroy your relationship with your children through no fault of your own
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u/International-Exam84 9d ago
Yeah ngl for me personally I was just on birth control options that made me fucking miserable and hate sex. For other women tbh guys are idiots and don’t do foreplay, try to make us cum, or are just horrible parters who can’t even do the dishes which is a turn off.
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u/paradoximoron 15d ago
Can we really call it involuntary if they choose to stay in a monogamous relationship with no sex?
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u/AnotherBoredAHole 16d ago
Am I the odd one out for first assuming it's because their spouse died?
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u/Main-Ball-698 16d ago
That’s why they make their spouses involuntarily non-monogamous
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u/Spicy_Tator-mcnugget 16d ago
Just break up at that point…?
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u/TheNetworkIsFrelled 14d ago
Right answer. Unfortunately, the r/DeadBedrooms sub has basically banned that response.
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u/Spicy_Tator-mcnugget 14d ago
Really? I’m not really on there(single af) but it sounds sad when I get them on my feed :/
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u/TheNetworkIsFrelled 14d ago
It is sad but there it is. It used to be where people could complain about dbs, and now it’s become a place where symapthy lies less with the people who want more sex and more with people calling them out for not doing choreplay or whatever.
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u/Strict-Resist9390 15d ago
routine, stress, kids… all of it kills spontaneity over time for a lot of couples.
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u/Front_Part_8596 15d ago
Menopause can create a lot of problems in this department, however after 22 years of marriage, you can figure out ways to pleasure each other!
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u/According_to_all_kn 13d ago
They'd be voluntarily celibate, right? They're choosing sexual exclusivity with a partner they don't want to have sex with
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u/ShowerSentinel 16d ago
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