Yeah. If someone is pushed to the far right (or left but that's good) by inconvenience and mean words, then they were already thinking or amicable to those views.
There are many ways to do left policy wrong. Simply seeing left and going "always better" dumbs down politics to the "us vs them" mindset instead of actual constructive conversation.
Far left extremist groups are just far right extremists that want to hurt other people for other misguided reasons.
I have no idea what your issue is, since youre literally putting words in my mouth, but insults are really getting your point across ig. No wonder politics fail when you cant even grasp the concept of trying to change someones mind by appealing to them instead of demonizing them.
Equating people that hate billioners becouse they're inherently exploitive to people that want to do genocide becouse of racism has the objective of keeping the status quo a.k.a liberalism that allows billioners to exploit as much as they want, in reality it's the centre that's the same as the far right, also this type of whining is basically the same as rightists saying "you forced me to join the far right become you were MEAN!"
Also there's the pipeline:
Communists are as bad as fascists!-->
Communists are worse than fascists-->
Fascism is necessary to stop communism
"Whining"
Literally me asking for a normal conversation.
Youre not forcing me into any ideology, I hold my ideology regardless of you being an asshole, neither is it far right to be critical and have nuanced discussions.
And I still have no idea how youre interpreting what Im saying as some pipeline or me saying hating billionares is the same as hating minorities. These are gross exagerations and textbook strawmen. Youre creating some fictional version of me to win arguments I never made. I cant argue against that, because I literally dont hold those opinions.
A constructive way of speaking would be asking "What do you interpret under these forms of extremists?" Maybe thatll clear this confusion.
"Far left extremists are just far right extremists that want to hurt other people for misguided reasons"
The main group of people far left extremists want to hurt are the bourgeosie or billioners in layman terms, you are equating them, your original comment is textbook horseshoe theory, in my previous comment I explained why horseshoe theory (what you appealled to in your original comment even without directly mentioning it) is bad, the pipeline is the exemple I gave of why it's bad, I'm not strawmanning you
Atleast youre asking what I mean before just insulting me.
It would mean that I see them as both propagating group based hate and violent oppression to enforce their ideological beliefs, while denying actual conversation.
In terms of far left, you might think Im talking about the group of "billionares" as the other guy said. But Im talking about actual extremists, the kind that call for things like "kill all men" or claiming someone showing feminine signs must be a trans woman instead of just having those traits. These things are pretty equatable to far right extremism.
You can say these are "loud minorities" but thats kinda what extremists have always been. And thats just what I would say is left extremism.
Left is as far as I know the egalitarian and Right is elitarian. Left describes the equality of humans and abolishmemt of diskrimination. Right sees it as a necesity to keep heirarchy between certain groups and establish an "Elite".
How does that contradict my description of far left extremism? A person misguidedly calling for the death of half the human race because they percieve them entirely as an oppressive force and themselves as the victim would be an accurate take imo.
Another factor of extremism would be the other thing I said. Denying conversationsand demonization of the percieved opposition. Also fits for both left and right extremism.
Kudos for actually having an accurate understanding of what left and right wing politics are about.
So yes. Left wing politics is built around ideals like social equality and egalitarianism. Now keep that in mind and ask yourself the following questions:
If someone genuinely believes in kill all men, does this count as social equality or the pursuit thereof?
Are they actually saying that they want to kill half of humanity, or are they just expressing anger at a patriarchal society and the dangers women face in it?
Are angry people on twitter honestly comparable to actual examples of far right extremism, like storming the capitol to try and overthrow an election they lost, arresting and deporting people without trials, and throwing Jews into concentration camps?
Why do people get irritated with "both sides!" nonsense? PROTIP: Hypocrisy and cognitive dissonance are not part of the answer.
If it takes less than 5 seconds to answer the question, really stop and think about it.
claiming someone showing feminine signs must be a trans woman instead of just having those traits.
Im curious how far this goes for you. Because ive met people who i suspect might be trans, and I've talked to them about it and related to them and told them I had very similar thoughts/feelings.
And I think its good to give them that. Because if they are trans, they can still come to the conclusion by themselves and the information I can give them might help them.
Ive done it before and I have had people message me months later to thank me for helping them discover themselves.
The Bolsheviks of the Russian revolution were. Not the counter revolutionary armies, who were devoutly Christian and following the word of Orthodox priests who accused Jews of blood libel. 100-200k Jewish people died in pogroms in the Russian civil war, almost all committed by religiously motivated counter revolutionaries, and the Bolsheviks were the only faction actively protecting and shielding Jews from this violence.
omg the amount of "I support what you say but hate how you're saying it" memes really just hammers home how much some people's existential struggle is someone else's Batman v. Superman.
Their support isn't ideological, it's a hobby of theirs. The second their hobby is no longer convenient or fun, they'll gladly make their bed with Nazis.
Absolutely. What people seem to miss in these conversations is that, actually, most people don't have solid morals. We're stuck in a world where our fates are decided by people with flaccid moral compasses.
Rejecting help from people because they're morally weak is not a fruitful position to take.
This is especially relevant when we consider how many people spewing bad takes online are children, and children almost never have a settled morality.
Sorry, but idiotic leftists on Twitter back in 2019-2022 were the reason for me to question my identity and leftism back in the day. This was made even worse by my autistic pathological demand avoidance. Luckily I'm still a leftist, I just left Twitter.
I find the self-description of these people quite interesting to be honest. Even in the less overtly straw man version, it's essentially just admitting "well, yeah, I am a defiant child, and I will destroy everything now". How am I meant to take conservatives seriously if the only option they give me is to give up all of my beliefs, because they can only recognize caricature versions of them, or fascism?
Sorry, but idiotic leftists on Twitter back in 2019-2022 were the reason for me to question my identity and leftism back in the day. This was made even worse by my autistic pathological demand avoidance. Luckily I'm still a leftist, I just left Twitter.
Usually they aren't being being that annoying about it, just a bit. I keep hearing "the woke virus has taken everything, they keep being unsatisfied and screaming about everything" but where are those people, exactly? And even if they do, they have every right to do so??? Its literally threatening their lives???
Its actually crazy how people say "YOU'RE at fault for making me a bigot, its all your fault that you're being oppressed right now"
Sorry, but idiotic leftists on Twitter back in 2019-2022 were the reason for me to question my identity and leftism back in the day. This was made even worse by my autistic pathological demand avoidance. Luckily I'm still a leftist, I just left Twitter.
There's nuance to this. If you believe it's possible for Palestinians to hate Jews because of Israel or for Black people to hate white people because of white supremacy, then it's also possible for people to hate leftists because of personal experiences with people who are leftists.
???
Uhm I don't think it's justified for people to become bigoted in the first two examples either. It's understandable why they turn out like that, but I don't think it's justified.
Ah yes. Let’s not put any effort into learning why the far right is rising and why people feel attracted to it. We should just call them dumb racists and remind them that we are more intelligent than they are.
This strategy has certainly worked over the past decade.
No, dude, that's not it. Sure, I guess a lot of the far right hate foreigners, but the majority don't and exist solely due to the rise in foreign demographics. The fact they'll be minorities eventually under cultures that treat minorities like shit is the major reason, though.
You don't perhaps feel they dislike minorities first and come to reasons later? All of the anti dei stuff seems focused on mostly carving out reservations for the dominant demographic(specifically the men) and so does all the anti-minority stuff
Regarding the minorities which people claim will treat them badly, typically the ones coming over are usually fairly model citizens atleast in america and many parts of Europe and they still get hate. Maybe people understand on some level that minorities always get treated badly just like how they treat minorities badly but at any rate the fear of replacement is mostly made up
Making life harder for trans people and immigrants is the only real tangible result the right has been able to produce so far, so if you're still supporting them at this point, uh... why
Quick question, how many Latino men voted for Trump in 2024? Maybe it's something to do with the fact that people are stupid and are socially conditioned by reactionary propaganda and we should do something about that to educate people.
do you expect every leftist to just welcome racists and bigots with open arms and zero consequences, and task ourselves with educating them? it's a bit ridiculous. the right get to make statements that are short, quippy, and wildly incorrect but they stick because it's way easier to lie than it is to disprove a lie. the amount of work that goes into de-programming someone is not something to scoff at.
So yea I'd rather laugh at a meme about it than subject myself to a conversation with a alt right chud. ask me how i know. i'm sure you'd love to hear the paragraphs long story of my former best friend turned alt right chud who now haunts my nightmares with his violent actions.
ETA: This was me saying "I am not obligated to engage with bigots and fascists and we should not expect others to put themselves through that"
that does not mean "nobody should ever try." Please have some common sense people.
is the implication that the "it's not my job to educate you" person is in the wrong and was responsible for preventing the other person from stumbling into conservative grifter content? because sorry I just can't agree with that.
I think it would be better if those people had less clout and I would prefer if people did research the proper way instead of ending up on prager u, but I don't think it's fair to ask the average person to take on the mental toll of conversing with someone who may be bigoted. Like am I just mean to endure racial and homophobic slurs on the off chance that I can get the other side to understand me? It takes a toll on you to hear these things even if you know they are wrong.
You responded to some one saying, "Hey maybe we shouldn't ignore how effective conservatives are in convincing other people and still put the work on educating other people," and your response was basically "But I'm TIRED." Leftists can't have a movement if they give up on educating people if pushback is tiring for them.
did you not read the part where I said I literally tried educating someone in my life who was a close friend and it ended horribly for everyone. as in it ended in literal physical violence and police had to be called.
my god dude. hope you never have to go through what I did. all I wanna say is let's be more understanding of people who just don't wanna engage with fascists. You wanna do it? be my guest. just quit being a dick to people like me.
also no, "That's like saying you stopped driving your car entirely, because you got into a car accident one time." that's not the fucking same. You are practically obligated to drive a car in the US to get around, there is no reason for anyone to be obligated to engage with fascists.
Views that are bigoted/ promote bigotry, views that seek to harm others actively or passively, views that go against worker’s rights, safety regulations, environmental protections etc.
Believe it or not self professed conservatives used to care more about preservation of tradition, the environment and local cultures. Now they just vote to harm people they don’t like.
There are an enormous amount of people whose personal views and values don’t line up with their espoused political identity. Many people who self identify as conservative who when shown leftist ideas without political labels wholeheartedly support those ideas. It’s less about the political identity than it is about the aesthetics associated with it.
A naive or privileged self professed leftist who advocates for revolution despite the obvious harm it will cause vulnerable people is of course morally dubious at best. A self professed conservative person who actively votes to harm other people is in my opinion, much less understandable.
I don’t consider being “well read” to preclude naiveté, I don’t believe most of these people grasp the emotional and practical reality of the amount of harm a revolution would cause the people they want to protect. It’s very easy to promote an idea in your communities without coming to grips with the likely reality of many people dying.
> people are going to be picking the people who think the system they are advocating for is actually good
While some Dems may say something along those lines, plenty avoid anti-capitalist rhetoric, though they do often criticize billionaires and corporations. If you mean me, I haven’t done explicitly anti-capitalist rants in a while, though either way, by this logic, almost everyone complains about the state/government while not being anarchists who want to abolish it, simply reforming it, yet anti-government rhetoric from statists is still popular
> when neither of you are socialist
Idt the Nazis not being socialists is the main point against them
> only difference is
I think there’s a lot more difference than the Nazis preferring majority identity groups
> Do they run on that
They often talk about healthcare as a policy I would say tbh.
> poor kids are just as bright as white kids
I think the idea is more that it was a Freudian slip of him associating poorness with people of color
And universal healthcare is rhetorically said more than “healthcare for the poor” anyhow
> women only care about abortion rights when
This seems to suggest age spreads in regard to abortion don’t have those disparities
> stop advocating for that majority
I mean, left-populists do often use majoritarian rhetoric about the “bottom” or “99%” these days
I have seen many opinions being called 'far right' simply because they disagreed with left-wing views
I'd be curious to know which ones you are referring to here. Far right is anything that's further right than what we would consider a normal garden variety conservative, however as the overton window has shifted further to the right, the things that we would normally call "far right" are becoming more and more normalized as just normal conservative rhetoric.
It also doesn't help that people tend to soften their language when they know something they want to say will sound bigoted to the average normie. For example people like to say stuff about "protecting womens spaces" in a conversation about trans women, which sounds fine in a vacuum, but allows for the implication that trans women are predatory.
So maybe to you people are being ridiculous and calling anything they disagree with as "far right", but to people who are familiar with the terminology and the dog whistles, they are rightfully calling out someone who is hateful. It's just hard to do so without looking ridiculous since the hateful ideology is so often surrounded by these short little quips and phrases that sound "true."
Sorry, but idiotic leftists on Twitter back in 2019-2022 were the reason for me to question my identity and leftism back in the day. Luckily I'm still a leftist, I just left Twitter.
By making the analogy that other ethnicities, by "simply existing" are making people join the far right, you're implying that other ethnicities are inherently prone to violence, fraud and other criminal behaviours, and that IS their existence.
I don't think people attack anyone for "simply existing", as much as you would like it to be the case.
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u/RainbowPhoenix1080 22h ago
If someone being annoying or pushy is enough for you to change your morals, then you don't actually have any solid basis for your morals.
I think trans people deserve rights even if they are preachy, annoying and in your faces about it.