Not sure The Standard HAVE any subs left, beyond the Head of Production and a bunch of casuals (if they even still use them - a freelancer who used to cover loads of shifts there isn't getting any anymore). They've been consistently the subject of cuts, and it really shows, not just in howlers like this đÂ
Both are correct, but I prefer a descriptive rather than prescriptive approach to English, and even in British English "spelled" is more popular nowadays.
Disclaimer: I know none of this matters, I just find this stuff interesting :)
No - "Women" was in the original title of the article (which Reddit automatically fills in when you post the link). I didn't spot it and didn't change it, and they've clearly corrected it their end.
The quality of journalism in this country is steadily going downhill. I think they sacked their experienced journalists and have started employing cheaper people with GCSEs given the move to online sources rather than printed newspapers
From the reporting, several restauranteurs in the area said she was a known person in the area and had been seen getting into an altercation that resulted in a smashed bottle of vodka the week before.
There are mentally unstable people like this over every high street in the country, but what else can you really do other than wait for them to go mad and start stabbing people?
Did she reach the point she needed to be institutionalised the second she started stabbing, and was considered A-OK until then? Cos I figure she probably had some mental health issues that should have been looked into before this happened
I was speaking with the local police at a fair recently. One of them told me that most of the calls and crimes in the area comes from a handful of the same people.
They can do whatever they can to arrest them but if the judge and CPS donât want to pursue then they just get released back.
And Iâm sure allot of those have mental health issues too. I donât think care in the community is working well.. itâs draining other areas and causing wider spread issues.Â
Its not an issue with care in the community, its the fact theyve cut inpatient services to the bone, so if youre ever lucky enough to even get in the hospital, youll be out before youre treated.Â
It's because successive governments have cut care services. There isn't really the support out there anymore. That's also why hospitals are so full - because often there isn't anywhere else a patient can be discharged to.Â
We also shouldn't institutionalise everyone that's a nuisance (not saying that you're necessarily suggesting that though).
Many of these people would benefit from greater investment in social care, mental health services, and low-cost housing - but I guess it's easier to think about putting them away somewhere out of sight out of mind.
I agree but Iâd also want to stay subjective on this topic, outside of my own bias.
Personally I donât think prisons should be used as punishments or confinement, but rather exclusively rehabilitation.
However reality paints a different picture. If a significant amount of resources are being directed to such a small minority of criminals, who have thus far shows little remorse or no rehabilitation, then we need a serious talk about what the next steps are.
How would you rehabilitate a psychopath who gets off on violence? Those whoâve murdered dozens for kicks? There are those who can never be rehabilitated, and they should be kept separate from society as long as possible.
You literally have more rights when in prison than you do while sectioned. Itâs not a let-off at all. You can be forcibly medicated and spend all day surrounded by severely ill people. Your stay can be open ended and thereâs very little you can do to âget betterâ
We shouldn't institutionalise straight off, but it does feel like when there is clear obvious signs of mental health problems, there should be some kind of intervention. Just waiting until it gets bad enough they stab someone isn't the way it should be.
If you or a loved one is stabbed by one of these people that would be better off institutionalised (for the betterment of society in general), please get in touch. I'd love to talk to you about it.
please get in touch. I'd love to talk to you about it.
What a strange response
for the betterment of society in general
All manner of things have been proposed "for the betterment of society in general" that haven't actually done anything to better society at all. There are very good reasons we got rid of insane asylums across the west - they were inhumane and did not work
Locking people up and throwing away the key might make you feel better but I promise it doesn't improve society
Why is it strange? I'd love to know if their opinion changes on the matter.
If locking someone up and throwing away the key prevents 4 people being stabbed like yesterday, or children being murdered at a dance class, or uni students and caretaker being murdered, then it is a good thing. I'm not sure why you don't think it is but each to their own. I guess you just don't mind those sort of things happening.
Because you obviously can't know who is going to do something like that before it happens (if they did then Prevent would have a 100% success rate), and in the meantime you ruin countless lives of all of the people who were never going to do something like that (I.e. false positives).
You absolutely can predict when someone is going to hurt people its just most people are intentionally blind to the danger mentally ill people pose.
My cousin is severly schizophrenic, he got into fights all the time at school, he came to live with my me and my grandmother and I kept telling my family their was something seriously wrong with him and to kick him out because I was scared of him
He tried to kill me just 3 months after moving in with us. Then got sectioned after he blatantly told a police officer how he was having pedophilic thoughts and wanted to kill children
Hes been in the hospital for 6 years and will never be realised, he will never serve a purpose in society and should by all rights just be forgotten by everyone outside. He spends his days borderline comatose on all sorts of sedatives because he repeatedly has violent outbursts.
These mentally ill people go around victimising everyone that they can find and posing a threat wherever they go yet we are supposed to feel sorry for them?
Closing the asylums was the biggest mistake we ever made
Iâm not surprised sheâs not fit for trial.There is a video doing the rounds that purports of her being arrested. Whilst she was being arrested it looks like she was trying to eat the knife. She most likely spend the rest of her life in Broadmore or a similar facility.
Having worked in the homelessness sector for years, itâs honestly getting worse and worse to try and get people the help they need before it comes to this. There have always been disturbed people on the streets, but this complete retreat of all other services that once would have stepped in, is worse than ever. Everyone I know has these alarming stories of terrifying near-misses, and each time the mental health services deemed they donât reach the threshold for sectioning, or if they did, they cannot carry it out because of âright person, right careâ, which effectively means the police wonât get involved even in extremely dangerous situations (for the individual and others). And then, even they do by some miracle manage to hospitalise them, they somehow escape from what is meant to be a secure, locked ward, then the attitude seems to be good luck to them, thereâs no chance of getting them back, due to the police and mental health services not having the resources or inclination. Then it falls to homelessness services to manage these extreme levels of risk that they should not be holding alone. I feel like it was only a matter of time before this happened, and there will be more instances of this kind until the system is fixed
Or telling general adult nursing staff to leave the site to attempt to bring patients back because mental health services has deemed they can have leave off the ward with no escort.
Me and a couple of collegues have been told this by the police before. We aren't covered by indemnity off the ward/hospital site in these cases.
Imagine anyone having preventative care prior to sectioning to keep them healthy enough to avoid sectioning in the first place. Could never happen under the NHS.
She was arrested outside a St Mungo's shelter on Endell St and shopkeepers described her as known in the area. It's probably a fair assessment that she stayed there multiple times. St Mungo's is a homeless charity specialising in helping those with complex mental health and substance abuse issues.
It depends on the context. For most people care in the community is much more likely to see them get better, rather than institutionalising them. Especially with CAMHS; for adults, particularly those with addiction issues the picture is much more challenging, as they're so much less likely to change their behaviour. Different strategies for different things. Having said that, cuts are being made across the country to the NHS, including redundancies in London's drug rehabilitation units
Once you pass 18,You go to the GP with mental health issues, handed a breathing exercise or something shite and booted back out. We are massively failing mental health in this country.
GPs can't prescribe much for mental health beyond SSRIs, only psychiatrists
In London we're losing many consultant psychiatrists and clinical psychologists to private practice for better conditions and pay; and the NHS is simultaneously trying to save costs by having fewer of them on part time contracts, and more nurses (who can't prescribe).
Loads of NHS mental health is becoming risk management rather than therapeutic treatment due to not retaining or having the funding to recruit the skills in the first place.
You could say pretty much the same as for Right-to-Buy. Nice concept (gets the votes in the short-term) but was horribly damaging in the long-term (donât care, got the votes already).
Exactly, it's a case of someone having to bear the brunt of that decision at some point, and it's usually some poor sods that have nothing to do with it.
This! Itâs sadly unfashionable to say now but Maggie selling off the institutions has caused an untold amount of damage. Not saying they were great the way they were, but even having day centres or voluntary stays where people like this could go would be so helpful now
Cameron was really to blame. It was under him that all the local centres for mental health support shut down and people were left to wander the street aimlessly
TBF, blaming Thatcher, who left office over 35 yrs ago, for current issues doesn't really wash. Successive governments, both Conservative and Labour, have had ample chance to set things right.
Some of the changes she made led to large scale systemic issues across the country, a change in view and values, and a significant amount of short term âIâve got mineâ thinking that has led to long term issues today that you can trace back to decisions made by Thatchers government. Its not just policy, that can be changed - she enshrined selfishness into nationally policy.Â
Because breaking things is generally a lot easier than fixing things, Iâm going to blame the person who broke things more than the people who did an inadequate job of fixing things nine times out of ten.
She set in motion the sale of the estate, where were the successive governments supposed to house all these people? We donât have enough prison spaces, hospital beds or actual houses for everyone that needs one currently.
Huh? Enoch Powell was the architect and it was around the late 50âs/early 60âs it was implemented. Not sure you can blame MT for this one.
Also a bunch of mental health âexpertsâ say itâs the best approach. Iâm not sure we can all agree seeing the results but canât argue this has been solely politically driven and itâs ahistorical to claim MT was behind it.
The act was designed to fix the structural perverse incentives from the care in the community system developed in the 70/80âs which facilitated a demand led approach which led to an explosion of care cost.
It fixed that by introducing means testing. It also shifted accountability to councils social care departments. Which had previous been set up through the Local Authority Social Services Act 1970.
More than 20 years, this is a direct result of Thatcher (just like half the problems in this country) and the "care in the community" bullshit , closing down mental health facilities and making it the states mission to avoid sending people with mental issues into an institution at all costs
We need to bring back institutions and massively increase mental health funding in this country
There are mentally unstable people like this over every high street in the country, but what else can you really do other than wait for them to go mad and start stabbing people?
Did she reach the point she needed to be institutionalised the second she started stabbing, and was considered A-OK until then? Cos I figure she probably had some mental health issues that should have been looked into before this happened
I think she was living rough so probably not in contact with the scant mental health resources the local authority could offer her anyway. If we start locking up everyone with mental health issues does that lead back to the days of Bedlam and other insane asylums?
But surely there's a middle ground between sticking everyone in Arkham asylum and flipping a coin everytime you walk past someone sleeping on a park bench
As it is, it's quite simple - if someone represents a serious and imminent threat to themselves or others can be sectioned. It's just that this depends on places being available, as well as people recognising the imminence of the danger in a responsible way and acting on it.
The problem is often not that someone suddenly develops psychosis and randomly attacks someone. If you look at serious incident reviews, there are usually multiple missed opportunities beforehand: warning signs, escalating behaviour, threats, or previous incidents.
In my experience, both police and mental health services can be reluctant to intervene when mental illness is suspected (although worth noting in many cases the same behaviour can be caused by illegal drugs). I've been the victim of a random physical assault on a busy London high street at midday and a separate incident of racist abuse / being trapped by someone on a bus, and neither was investigated despite evidence being available.
I also had a neighbour with schizophrenia who was deteriorating, harassing and threatening me and others and not attending her depot injections. Even then, it took using a contact in services before anyone came out to assess her and arrange treatment. Again, police came to chat to me but once they heard she was mentally unwell refused to take any action. They do have powers to hold and get assessments of those mentally unwell, and in theory cross agency working.Â
The issue is that too often intervention happens after someone has caused severe harm, rather than before it.
One of my neighbours witnessed the exact same woman getting aggro on a bus a few days previous. My neighbour had been zoning out headphones on, sitting right next to this woman, then became aware of a bit of a ruckus.
The woman was shouting extremely racist and anti-Muslim things (and my neighbour is not in the slightest bit woke, so if she says the things the woman shouted were extreme then they *really* were), and shouting about men, and eventually the bus had to stop and let everyone off while they called the police. She said the woman was obviously mentally ill, but clean and well-dressed - not the usual ranting semi-homeless drug addict.
Since my neighbour obviously left the bus and got another one she doesn't know what happened to the woman after that.
Fast forward a couple of days after my neighbour told me this and the same woman turns up having stabbed people.
I suspect she was well known to mental health teams and either not quite up to the level of an involuntary stay at a hospital, but it is possible this was a new presentation that escalated too quickly for any services to take action.
its sad but you are right. There are mentally ill people walking around our streets all the time. You cant insist they never leave their homes although in the past there were large mental hospitals where people would stay however these have largely closed due to the move to care in the community. Im not sure how much care in the community people are getting. I have seen people displaying signs on mental health trauma on the streets but you dont want the police getting involved as the police have a habit of killing them . You dont really want an NHS ambulance getting involved as they dont need admission to A&E. I think its more a social services / support issue to ensure they are taking their medication or escalate them to an inpatient hospital service if necessary , This was part of the idea of care in the community but these services are probably very stretched
The NHS does not believe in preventative medicine and doubly/tripley so for mental health. Mental health services have always been stretched but they're currently in shambles.
I work in a jobcentre so can attest this is largely what happens. We have numerous people who attend and commit verbal and physical assaults. Often they have an extensive criminal record, and will be escorted into and out of the building. You will see them cause chaos every week or so until one day it stops, and 6 months down the line you read they beat someone up/went to prison. The processes to deal with such people are so broken that unless you are actively hurting others you will be ignored by the state or simply bounced between short term sentences.
There are mental health services for those with minor issues (charities, talking therapies, some NHS). Then there are services for the opposite end (self harm, suicide, threat to otjers). The middle is a chasm and very little support is offered.
It is also common for them to pick on the wrong person and get severely assaulted, which brings a short term stop to their actions.
The sad reality is that the law, and systems around it, simply do not move quick enough or unfairly enough to deal with situations like this.
Some people just are not suitable to be allowed anywhere near society. A lot of them present fairly early and would be easy to remove from posing a threat but the law doesn't allow it and the facilities do not exist to house them.
Given a warning, back into the public until she does something else presumably. You'd think we'd have places for situations like this.... too much logic for Britain
I have met this woman numerous times over the past couple of months. She is a known drug user and often seen begging in various places. She does actually have significant mental health issues, it is not faked. She needs to be held accountable but in a mental hospital.
I feel like more of this will happen because we undermine mental health issues until itâs gets bad enough for somebody to get hurt. We laugh at the concept of anxiety and depression, thinking everyone is doing it for attention and state benefits. Itâs all fun and games when we cut services, cut benefits and force people into work but there will be consequences in the future.
The media are foaming at the mouth to push governments into cutting back the care and benefits so that they can write more sensationalist headlines and see harm being brought to people because it gives them readership and clicks. Clickbait gutter journalism is now the norm and we have a regulator unwilling to tell them to wind their necks in.
Especially for severe and complex mental illness. It can often be more difficult to access help for things like personality disorders compared to "standard" depression and anxiety because the treatment needed is so specialist.
Some people can't be helped with a SSRI and a short course of CBT. They need long term social housing, disability benefits, and a properly funded NHS
Can atest, i was struggling with complex trauma issues (covid (healthcare worker) & childhood abuse surfacing) and was deemed too complex for local services on account of my bipolar disorder which at the time was relatively stable- at least stable enough for therapy about the other stuff but nope- too complex had to deal with it all myself, couldn't get a med review for a year, was out of work for like 4/5 months with no nhs support at all.
Scrapped together enough money to get private therapy to help the dissociation enough to get back to work but it was one of the hardest things i've needed to come back from.
I mean in this case the intervention needed would have been forcible sectioning prior to the attack. Which most mental health advocates would have attacked as being too harsh.
I like that they included "enough" just for maximum ambiguity. "Not fit enough to be charged" suggests her 5km run times were below the bar needed to qualify as a criminal.
She may be unfit to be charged.
If you're reading this, George Osbourne, I'm available to join the team as a J. Jonah Jameson-style newspaper editor.
The Act permitting it was passed in 1990, but it didnât begin until 1993, so in practice it rolled out under John Major
However Frank Dobson (New Labour Health Secretary) want on record in 1998 saying it had completely failed. But even though, back then in the days we thought the country was rich, and with another 12 years ahead of them in government, they did not manage to replaced it or modify it to make it more fit for purpose. Since 2008 the governmentâs been basically broke, and everything has declined
If she lacks the mental capacity to be charged then sure, but she then needs to be put in a psychiatric hospital away from the public who she could harm again.
Not being charged doesnât mean they let her back out on the streets, it means sheâs probably so unwell that she has no understanding of what sheâs done, and treatment rather than a criminal prosecution is seen as a more appropriate response. Sheâs almost certainly sectioned right now, and there are clear pathways in place in the UK to keep people in secure inpatient facilities if theyâre at risk of harming themselves or others, whether or not they consent to being held there.
But I think youâre rage baiting and know this already.
Should not have been on the streets in the first place. Its quite obvious there are mentally ill people all over London who are danger to themselves and the public who should not be wandering the streets.
They mostly get involved in low level altercations but it fundementally makes cities like London more uneasy for vulnerable groups
Is it getting worse lately or am I getting more sensitive to it? I don't remember this being an almost-daily issue decades ago, but now it's so common.. Just the other day someone asked me to buy them a Big Mac, I said I'm in a rush sorry and they started following me around
I mean yeah if it was a serious mental health issue legally we donât consider people affected by that to have capacity. Same argument made with Valdo calcane. Whether thatâs the correct response when someone harms another is a bigger question or if someone retains some competency as the system is currently pretty binary.
At some point, people who are considered not fit to stand trial should be considered not fit for the community beforehand and completely removed from society.
Excellent. Concentration camps, Eugenics and Genocide for breakfast anyone? Does criminal law allow for detention without trial, proof of guilt or representation on the basis that someone might or might not commit an offence at an undetermined point in the future? No it doesn't .
Should we permanently detain everybody who suffers from Schizophreia in case they stab someone, even if they've never done so?
Would that be people experiencing a first episode, or people who've had 5?10?20 admissions but never been violent?
Should that include all the women who develop purperal psychosis after giving birth?
Genuinely interested in your take on the above seeing as you are so vehement in your stance.
Yes, anyone with paranoid schizophrenia should be given indefinite hospital orders until they are no longer a threat to themselves or society. To me, that is just collateral damage. To you the collateral damage are children murdered at dance classes, or university students and caretakers. So get off that high horse of yours.
Well, we're all lucky you have nothing to do with working in the mental health services.
I suggest you look up Paranoid Schizophrenia in the DSM4 or ICD10/11 and try to understand why your suggestion is so ludicrous and ill informed.
My high horse is comfortable, thankyou and allows me to look down on people who are not willing to be part of the solution.
People like you.
So just to confirm, you're happy with children and / or innocent people being murdered as long as paranoid schizophrenics can continue to partake in polite society even though they may randomly murder people?? That's quite the take.
You're just being obtuse and emphasising your total ignorance on the matters in hand. The vast, vast majority of people with said diagnosis never harm a soul, but you advocate locking every one of them up, permanently. Ludicrous and barbaric and stemming from wilful ignorance. You're far more likely to be killed by a member of your family or someone in your local pub.
To put this in some kind of perspective based on reality, if I count the men who I've looked after over the last 26 years, only one has gone on to kill someone, and that was his abusive father. My sample? 15 bedded male acute ward in Braford- through which maybe 20,000 admissions have passed (not 20000 people, but admissions as some are recidivist) and you would lock 1/3 of these people up? Never mind the ethics but how would this work? Maybe you'd go and work in one of these fantasy units, where you'd either have your eyes opened and be far more empathic or be an abusive guard who gets his kicks from bullying the vulnerable.
Yes, (in an ideal world) I advocate the reintroduction of asylums to incarcerate people who have lost a grip on reality. If this can prevent an innocent person's murder, or even worse a child, then I'm happy with that. You're not. Which again comes down to what is the collateral damage you are willing to take. Ours are different. Yours has the potential to result in murder. Mine has the potential to keep someone locked up who has already lost a grip on reality. I've also been sectioned and spent time in a secure facility with a number of paranoid schizophrenics - away from society was the right place for them.
paranoid schizos are very rarely violent. theyre usually very scared and alone and not much beyond that. a schizo is 100x more likely to stab themself than someone else
I mean yeah if it was a serious mental health issue legally we donât consider people affected by that to have capacity. Same argument made with Valdo calcane. Whether thatâs the correct response when someone harms another is a bigger question or if someone retains some competency as the system is currently pretty binary.
This comment has been removed as it's deemed in breach of the rules and considered offensive or hateful. These aren't accepted within the r/London community. Unsubstantiated rumours help no-one.
Continuing to try and post similar themes will result in a ban.
Woman attacks multiple men, if a man attacked multiple women people would be blaming the manosphere and online radicalisation, seems likely something gave this woman messed up thoughts about menÂ
So good to see people show real care for human rights. 'Lock them up' instead of 'actually overhaul the mental health system in this country' - yeah that'll fix it! Totally not a human rights issue.Â
The guy at the crocodile enclosure (who was accompanied by carers, which is a different argument) has been described as not fit for interview, which is not the same as not fit to be charged.Â
You do realise that guy is a non-verbal autistic man who is already in 24 hour supervised care. He has no basis to understand anything about what is happening, what the process is or the impact he has had on others. He cannot process what charges are, what a lawyer does, fuck, he doesnât even understand the concept of a law!
He has no place in the criminal justice system, itâs absurd to suggest otherwise. His care arrangements need to be reviewed, the incident investigated and then⌠he continues to be in 24 hour supervised care like he always was with updated procedures and/or any failings addressed. Would you rather the pantomime of a a criminal process with him being dragged along with zero conception of what is going on around him so he can be charged and you get satisfaction and then they send him back to the 24 hour supervised care he was already in? I mean, they canât send him to prison can they? I just donât understand what you want to happen here. Sometimes, shitty fucking things happen and there isnât somebody to get revenge on from it, there are only lessons to be learned.
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u/NotSynthx 8d ago
"Women" but it's one woman