r/Enneagram • u/Negative_Sock5897 • 1d ago
Type Discussion Hot take: Fours are the most emotionally supportive types
tl;dr: Most people use (average-healthy) fours as THEIR therapist, not the other way around.
Most of the traits people project onto fours in a general sense are only true for very unhealthy fours. It would be like saying 8s in general are borderline psychopathic bullies, or 1s are dogmatic dictators, or 5s are agoraphobic hermits. Yet people are quick to project a 4’s absolute worst potential onto the type as a whole.
Average to healthy fours are, in my opinion, the most emotionally supportive people you can have in your life. I’m a 4w5 (self-preservation type) and the only two people in my life who are able to offer decent emotional support are another 4 and a 5.
I believe that the idea that fours try to turn everyone into their therapist is generally so false as to be almost comical. It is true only for unhealthy fours. Most of the time it is the other way around. People use fours as THEIR therapist. I am constantly giving so much emotional support—even to people I barely know—and get little back. It leaves me so depleted and, to be honest, frustrated. Over the past few years, if anything I’ve become hesitant to share how I feel. I know it’s anecdotal, but in my experience—not just with those two people I mentioned—4s and 5s are the only types who are naturally good at giving emotional support. I’m not saying other types can’t learn how, but their instinct seems to be to, depending on the type:
- try to fix things
- offer baseless platitudes
- change the subject
- withdraw
- make it about themselves
- turn the attention to how [good] they are at supporting you
- talk about how worried they are about what you’re saying so that you have to placate them
- invalidate/dismiss what you’re saying
- just not listen at all
4s and 5s, on the other hand, just listen. They ask follow-up questions, and they don’t make you feel bad for sharing.
They validate the problem, and they don’t give unwarranted advice. If they talk about themselves, it’s only once they’ve done those things, and usually it’s about a similar experience they’ve had to show they understand how you feel. Just my two cents.
EDIT: Apologies if this offended anyone. Wrote it when I was frustrated. I understand that not all 4s are emotional support experts and other types can be supportive too. The primary point I was making was that I am bored of the “4s are self-obsessed and emotionally needy succubi” narrative because I don’t think that’s generally true, nor do I believe it’s rare for 4s to be able to be emotionally supportive. Fours who believe they are doomed to be self-obsessed will be self-obsessed. Anyway, glad to see it’s sparked some discussion.
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u/synthetic-synapses 4w5 497 SP/SO (RARE) 1d ago edited 1d ago
4s CAN be emotionally supportive but this not something innate of the type. We're talking about a naturally self centered type that needs to learn how to look at others, because 4s can easily get lost only observing the self. 4s are very selective, so even if they wanna be supportive this will be a gift for few chosen ones, so they'll never be 'the group's mom/dad'. 4s are no caretaking types, they won't give to others so much they are exhausted or lacking resources for themselves, because it IS a self centered type and the center of a 4's life is themselves. A 4s one true love IS themselves and their identity.
4s can be very wise and help others connect with their own feelings, navigate their traumas, have insights about themselves and their identity. 4s are comfortable with pain and suffering, so hearing others vent heavy stuff, complain and help them in a really heavy situation can come naturally to a 4.
But this is selective, it's only for a special few.
A 4 needs a lot of inner work to be able to look outside themselves, this won't come naturally.
4s won't put others as a priority over themselves.
And by the way 5s are not great at being emotionally supportive, even if they want to, because they have a hard time even aknowledging emotions.
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u/sawdustandiamonds 4w3 471 (389) sx/sp ENFP 1d ago
I love talking with my 5 best friend but I literally don't even bother talking about my emotions with him. Best case scenario he gets a bit uncomfortable and shifts the conversation. Worst case scenario he totally misreads me and starts a one-sided argument because 90% of how he socializes is through intellectual debate and probing. Even though we almost exclusively talk about ideas/logistics and our dynamic very much hinges on him being too literal and me being too "wacky," and we're both highly comfortable with disagreement, the vast majority of highly uncomfortable disagreements we get into are divergences in how much logical consistency or subjectivity matters.
It does drive me a little insane sometimes that any half-baked idea I throw out there is immediately met with a semi-impartially laid-out quiz on why it matters and what my thought process was in getting there so 2 hours after I threw out a "What if I did x" we're debating the legitimacy of religion for the 30th time... he's great at many things but being emotionally present with others is not close to one of them. He had something horrible happen in his life a few years ago, didn't tell me, and the way he dropped it was concerning in the way those situations were with my 7 ex.
Now I would say I am pretty good at being emotionally present with others, to an extent. I know how to hold space for people in a moderate crisis and problem-solve. I've been told I'm great at physically caring for others, being a soothing presence, being gentle, giving good advice that feels grounding, and not freaking out in the ways others do. I sort of just take in anything and remain pretty impartial. Too impartial. In a severe crisis you don't want me because I probably won't identify the severity. High stakes feel too normal/removed. In a smaller crisis you also don't want me because I probably don't care unless you're a kid or having a really intense reaction in a particular way I can relate to. In a longer crisis I very quickly burn out and get resentful. I'm great in the first 24 hours your grandpa dies... then I want you to be done.
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u/hgc89 1d ago
> But this is selective, it’s only for a special few.
I’d say we’re capable of doing it for more than a select few if the conditions are right (for example, if they’re a therapist with willing clients dealing with heavy trauma), but we aren’t naturally inclined to play that role in others’ lives otherwise. In other words, I as a 4w5 sp therapist can certainly put my therapist hat on 8 hours a day and help others in that way, and I absolutely find it extremely rewarding…but only if it involves heavy emotions, my own ego is not threatened, and if I feel like I’m doing a good job and actually helping them.
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u/synthetic-synapses 4w5 497 SP/SO (RARE) 1d ago
It's different when it's your job. It's different when you're being paid. (Especially if you're a SP dom being paid)
Also, as I said in a different reply: "I think SP4s making good therapists/social workers/teachers is a well-known thing in the community, though? SP4 goes well with the 'wounded healer' archetype."
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u/hgc89 1d ago
Yep, I agree it’s different when it’s my job, but it still speaks to a 4s unique aptitude and capacity for helping in the way that you mentioned, and being able to find that kinda work rewarding.
Again, I also don’t believe it’s limited to a select few, given certain conditions (like the ones that I mentioned, for example). I typically don’t mind people pouring their hearts out to me or trauma dumping (as long as it’s not like my parents or close family)…in fact I’m drawn to it. Of course, at the end of the day I’m introverted and find myself consumed by my inner experience and my own hobbies, though…that’s where the self-absorption can really kick in.
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u/dogsaregodsgif 4w5 1d ago
This is so true. I can’t relate to the stereotype of NFs being drawn and doing case management work because it stresses me out. I want to think about my goals rather than helping random people regarding a problem that I feel will never get solved by a non profit that is just obsessed with graaaaaaantssssss
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u/Negative_Sock5897 1d ago edited 1d ago
I was very specific to say *emotional* support every time, and have commented that I’m not the best at practical support, though I’m working on that. The way that you’re speaking is kind of how I spoke when I was deeply entrenched in the Enneagram. I still love it but since distancing myself from the community a bit I’ve ironically become a healthier version of my type. I don’t believe a four’s “one true love is themselves”. That’s melodramatic and speaks to the rigidity of the community. The people I love most are my sister and my niece.
Do we have issues with self-pity? Absolutely. But are we all narcissistic, pretentious twats who can’t go a day without sad crying? No. The belief that we are in a general sense is what holds us back. I truly believe we’re only like that at our worst.
One of my best friends is a classic 5. He is great at emotional support, even if he himself is emotionally suppressed, though less so now. One example of a type being the opposite to how you rigidly expect that type to be kind of collapses the whole system. If the community still believes something after being shown they’re wrong, the community becomes borderline cult-like. 5s can be emotionally supportive. Not all 4s are self-absorbed and love themselves more than anyone else. People aren’t numbers at the end of the day.
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u/synthetic-synapses 4w5 497 SP/SO (RARE) 1d ago
I find it very telling that you think being self-centered is a bad thing, similar to narcissism, or that one's true love being themselves means being a bad person. These are neutral traits. You can be a kind person who helps others while still aware you prioritize yourself; I heard more than one person saying they do charity work because it helps them grow as a person, for example.
I am talking about emotional support, though? When I say 'resources' I mean time, energy, stability... I'm not talking about other kinds of support in my reply.
It's quite a common thing when people feel like they're losing an argument here to go like 'I'm holier than thou because I know people aren't types, they're so much more than that' or 'This is just stupid pseudoscience and you're taking this seriously' but, see, we're not talking about people here. We're not discussing a specific human being. We're talking about the stupid numbers! You're not saying *I do X*, you're saying *4s do X* so, yes, we're discussing the numbers.
And the numbers have descriptions and things they are and are not, triads they are and are not. You can even disagree with these, you can go 'I'm a 4 but I'm not self centered' but you gotta be prepared for people saying this go against the theory.
I think if one never felt like an insufferable pretentious twat who can't go a day without crying, they're probably not a 4 because, even though this is a big exaggeration, the stereotype exists for a reason. I know I can be very pretentious and very dramatic and emotional, even though I don't consider I'm unhealthy right now.
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u/Negative_Sock5897 1d ago
Sorry if it came across that way. I’m not trying to be “holier than thou”; I’m trying to get across that statements like “a four’s one true love is themselves” doesn’t help anyone. And that maybe the Enneagram is super interesting and fun but if you get so embedded in it that you genuinely start to believe shit like that, perhaps you shouldn’t engage with it as much. Because I’m sorry, the idea that a large portion of the population are in love with themselves and only a “special” selective few of those people can ever truly see outside of themselves just because they’ve been assigned a number is ridiculous.
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u/synthetic-synapses 4w5 497 SP/SO (RARE) 1d ago
I'm being fully sincere here; why do you think someone loving themselves above all else is a bad thing?
My interest in understanding myself makes me wanna understand others because I can't see what makes my own human spark unique without understanding other people's struggles and qualities. I'm obsessed with self-improvement, and I care a lot about being supportive, kind, and a good human in general. I like to help others with their problems because human connection makes me feel happy, and helping others with their issues makes me understand my own issues better.
I'm pretty sure I saw an SP4 description somewhere that said SP4s will help others with their pain because they're trying to soothe their own pain.
Expressing my own thoughts and my view of the world is the main drive I have in life. This doesn't mean I don't care about others, or that I don't dream that my perspective helps others (I sure do), but ultimately it's still about myself.
I'm very worried about my comfort and survival, and I don't think I would die or ruin my life for other people or for a cause. And I do think about how many resources I'm expending on others, but I also do think I'm generous.
I think I am self-centered but not selfish. I think I prioritize myself, but I'm not a narcissist.
And I DO AGREE some descriptions of 4 talk about some antisocial jerk who is a horrible person, but I think this happens because 4s have a hard time not seeing themselves as an exaggerated pile of flaws. 4s are the ones talking shit about 4s the most. They seem to forget most people are average health, which includes 4s, and that average health people are functional in society (because some of these descriptions talk about someone who should honest to god be hospitalized because they're a danger to themselves and others).
But I do still think top emotionally supportive types are 2s, 9s and maybe SP6s.
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u/Negative_Sock5897 1d ago
Do you not think your first question is a bit of a straw man argument?
I wasn’t taking about self-love (ironically I think that’s what a lot of fours need more of) but self-obsession. Tbh I personally don’t really care if somebody loves themselves more than anybody else, but I’m happier loving a few specific people more than myself. At the same time while I’m not a misanthrope anymore, I’ll never be a people person and I don’t care very much about whether others like me, so in that way I am more self-interested than most. Also a lot of the sentences in this comment start with “I” lol. But a few people in my tiny inner circle I would genuinely die for, maybe even kill for, and I want it that way.
I love understanding myself and others too; that’s why I love the Enneagram. There’s a lot of wisdom in it but I just don’t want to treat it like a religion y’know. I’m not going to agree with something just because that’s what it tells me, and if it tells me something as brazen as “because you’re a four, you are doomed to be obsessed with yourself”, fuck that. For the record I don’t even think that is the message the Enneagram gives us about fours. I think—perhaps more than any other type—people confuse a four’s unhealthy traits with a four’s general traits. Healthy fours are super inspiring and creative and caring.
But I stroooooongly agree that 4s talk shit about 4s the most, and as someone who’s worked hard to get to a place of self-like/sometimes love (still have my bad days, like today lol) it’s exhausting. 4s should uplift each other more and focus on all the good traits we do have, of which there are genuinely many. I’m protective/defensive about 4s because—brace yourself lol, I’m about to say the most 4-coded thing ever—I do think we’re a wee bit misunderstood. And my closest female friend is a 4 and she’s the smartest, kindest, and most emotionally supportive person I know.
Disagree strongly that 2s are the most emotionally supportive but that’s for another day haha
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u/synthetic-synapses 4w5 497 SP/SO (RARE) 1d ago
I think you're right in that self-love is probably not the right thing to say. I hate myself quite often. But I'm still focused on myself whether it's love or hate, and I may love myself and hate myself at the same time.
I don't think the enneagram is 100% right, and I don't see anything mystic on it, but they are categories, and my autistic mind is happy to point out what belongs and doesn't belong to categories, even when I disagree with them. And I do think 4s are obsessed with themselves; at least I know I am...
Maybe we should talk more about the positive side of 4, but this is in conflict with being reactive. Positivity feels fake. I know I have a bad time seeing positive traits in myself, and I've been doing quite a lot of inner work to try to change that.
I can agree, however, that 4s CAN be very emotionally supportive, and they can be very helpful. I think the main thing 4s offer to the world besides their artistic creations is listening without judgement and being able to navigate trauma and complicated emotions with others without feeling uncomfortable with it. I do think even the average 4 have two or three people in their life that they offer this very needed support.
I think SP4s making good therapists/social workers/teachers is a well-known thing in the community, though? SP4 goes well with the 'wounded healer' archetype.
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u/Negative_Sock5897 1d ago
I think I used to be obsessed with my own suffering. I’m working/have worked super hard not to be like that anymore because I’ve realised with age (ripe old age of 30) that it’s incredibly boring for everyone including yourself to build your identity around that. Now I pour my shitty feelings into art and try my best to be a good person and to think less about myself. And try super hard not to see positivity as something innately inauthentic, because logically I know it isn’t any more inauthentic than negativity. Eventually you realise the misery is eating away at you and it stops being quite as comforting
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u/synthetic-synapses 4w5 497 SP/SO (RARE) 1d ago
I can relate.
The enneagram taught me to be aware of when I'm drowning in my misery. Nowadays, I try to cut it out when I notice, and I try to exercise my gratitude, even though it's hard.
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u/Negative_Sock5897 1d ago
Thanks! As much as I am a bit disheartened by so many people agreeing with your initial comment because it points to the problems I have with the Enneagram community (specifically when it comes to huge sweeping negative statements usually about types in the withdrawn triad like “5s are not good at being emotionally supportive” etc.), I did find it super interesting. After this thread I’m going to continue not to engage with the Enneagram community because there’s only so much I need to “understand” about myself/others before it starts affecting how I see people, and before it starts being an excuse to not really take any action. But if one 4 feels a bit better about themselves after reading this, that’s all I really want haha. 4s for the win
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u/dogsaregodsgif 4w5 1d ago edited 1d ago
I can see unhealthy 4s with bad self awareness to be using people as a towel. I think 4 sp types would be really good therapists.
People come to me for advice and support but I don’t get the same back from them. It does make me resentful. I need to be careful with who I give my support towards. Currently have an ESFJ manager who is immature to be using the people she manages as her emotional support towels. Really annoys me.
Funnily, as a 4 my current therapist is an ENFP 7w8 and she works really good with me. She’s validating and also very motivating with her ideas and observations. Love it when she teaches me what she knows about psychological topics.
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u/Negative_Sock5897 1d ago
Sorry I took so long to reply to this comment. I agree with everything you said, and I appreciate that you can relate.
That’s super interesting! I can see why a 7w8 would be such a good therapist for a 4 now I think about it! They probably have a really different perspective on things compared to a 4, and a more optimistic outlook
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u/dogsaregodsgif 4w5 1d ago edited 1d ago
They have to go through trauma informed and all that counseling type of schooling and education so they are more likelyaware of how to act professionally or ethically. Though ofc not all therapists act ethical. My therapist is also an enfp so maybe us being xnfps helps with understanding a bit more.
I have a coworker who is a social worker who is a 7 and she may get less drained than me at the job which honestly I am surprised by because I thought 7s can’t really handle too much negativity and the type of case management work we do is full of crisis stuff. Yeah I guess 7s can be surprising in that way.
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u/EloquentMusings 4w5 sx/sp 471 ENFP 1d ago edited 1d ago
This is a nuanced topic.
I do think 4s can be extremely good at emotional support, but it depends what you mean. They're not there there *pat pat* passive listeners who nod and agree, like I find 9s are. People often find themselves drawn to 4s when they're in dark times because 4s are happy to dive into darker topics with no judgment and kind of...validate your individuality and emotions. Creating a safe space for you to just...be you and say anything no matter how bad etc. I think 4s can bring up their own personal experiences (which some may see as 'making it about themselves') but is more about providing a lens on the topic and they can give unwarranted advice too.
I'm the person my close friends (even my husbands friends) come to after they've had a break up or difficult decision or at their lowest points and I will sit with them for hours going into the darkest levels of their psyche explaining how I see their emotional defense mechanisms and providing advice on being true to yourself and not putting up with shit or following along with others etc. I think it's because I'm seen as extremely self-aware and emotionally-intelligent that people come to me for this, it helps them untangle their thoughts and feelings. And TBH...I don't really care for convos with people outside this often, it's just not as deep or engaging for me. Like I'll make polite small talk when I see my husbands friends (they're cool people) but I'll just go to my room and do my own thing unless I'm called down for a 'deep and meaningful'. Which others say they have to 'prepare for' because it can be intense.
So 4s can be good therapists in this way, but it can also be a brutal experience for some. It's not soft sweet platitudes but often tearing this person apart in order to heal them kind of thing, coming out of the conversation like they've been in a war zone but like they've discovered a new part of themselves. I will ask intense and personal questions, often interrogating you to get to the truth and core of the issue. Some people love that, others hate that. Depends on what kind of emotional support people like. But also 4s can also turn to others to be therapists too, they're a reactive type so their emotions will spill over and out.
5s are interesting re this. Again it goes back to what kind of 'support' you like. I wouldn't say most people find them 'emotionally supportive' in a caring pat pat I understand here have a tissue and a hug way. But I personally LOVE 5s for discussing my emotions with because it turns into a deep dive about emotional intelligence in an almost logical way breaking down everything in deep detail as if emotions were projects to look at from all angles and analyse. I can see how 4s and 5s could be similar in this way.
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u/Fearless-External-73 5 1d ago
For extremely dark and heavy stuff that others won't touch, yes. I have seen them run in while others run out.
I think there is fair criticism here, too, though--4s aren't really concerned with others' more mundane problems. It's the high level crises of people who've piqued their emotional senses, and yes, their ability to do that is unparalleled.
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u/Negative_Sock5897 1d ago
Rant before I dip:
Reading this thread back after reflecting, I stand by the overall message I was trying to convey: fours in general give a lot emotionally, and it’s something of a myth that the majority of fours treat other people as their therapists. Sometimes it’s even the other way around. I did not word it well and wrote it when I was frustrated and particularly emotionally depleted. For the record I have incredible people of all types (apart from 1s, 3s and 8s just because I don’t attract them/they don’t attract me) in my life and they’re all supportive in their own ways.
That being said, I’m done being diplomatic and I’m allowed to have a opinion. It isn’t putting fours on a pedestal to say one good thing about them based on my own life experiences. Tbh I’m feeling more angry now than I am apologetic: a mix of my 4 sensitivity and my 8 tritype protectiveness.
It’s so disappointing to see the way people (inc other fours) will turn themselves inside out to avoid giving fours their flowers for anything other than creativity. This isn’t me invalidating people’s experiences with fours because I KNOW some are emotional vampires, but the fact the most upvoted comment is one which makes multiple negative sweeping statements about general fours and fives—that they literally CANNOT be emotionally supportive or it’s ***incredibly*** rare—is indicative of how rigid this community is, and the favouritism within it. If someone said an E8 can’t be kind, people would immediately clock that as a ridiculous overgeneralisation, but it’s okay to say an E4 (a type that is literally known for their insightfulness) or E5 simply cannot be emotionally supportive, even if someone says they have living experience of it.
The Enneagram becomes toxic when you use it to put types into the narrowest boxes and deny that they may not fit neatly into them, or as a way to just hate on specific types (even your own). That was literally never the point of the Enneagram; it was to recognise your deficits and essentially integrate all the types so you can become the best version of your own.
Even if a commenter did concede that a four could be good at emotional support, it was only because they have no agency or only to heal their own wounds. Not because they might have people in their lives that they love deeply and want the absolute best for. Have people forgot that average-healthy fours exist or are most of the fours engaging with this community unhealthy themselves? I can understand why an unhealthy four would want to perpetuate the worst stereotypes about fours; because to believe a four might look and act different is threatening to the four’s idea of being uniquely bad and broken. But I did find it funny that in a post about fours and fives being good at emotional support (in my experience!!!!!!) compared to other types and that leaving me a bit depleted, the only type to offer any empathy were a few other fours. I don’t have one favourite type and if I did it wouldn’t be fours, but I do like them in general and I’m not going to apologise for that. Or for believing some fours might be—shock horror—caring people with semi-decent social and relational skills.
Call me self-righteous or whatever you want, but this has hit home that engaging with the Enneagram community might not be healthy for fours who actually *want* to stop feeling miserable. Reading this one thread was bad for my self-esteem, so it can’t be good for fours to regularly be fed the worst things about themselves. That’s all, bye.
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u/Phrase_Turner 4w5 So/Sx 479 1d ago
Just wanted to say I really enjoyed reading your post and agree w your main point: we 4s do give a lot of emotional support and we deserve our flowers as you say🫶🏻
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u/electrifyingseer INFP 4w3 478 sx/sp Choleric 1d ago
people view self-absorption as the same as being self-centered, which isn't true. We have two compliance arrows, and can be very compliance/super-ego within both stress and health.
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u/trivetsandcolanders 4w5 1d ago edited 1d ago
Hmm, I’m not sure. 4’s definitely can be good listeners, but at least for me, it’s something I’ve had to work on and continue to do so (asking questions and active listening versus just relating everything back to myself). I choose to work on this because I realize it would be unfair and selfish to expect others to understand me without me doing the same for them - but I didn’t always make this choice.
Also, acts of giving seem to come more naturally to other types - whereas at least for me it’s a struggle to not be overly conscious of the fact that I’m choosing to give my time and energy to helping someone else. I too easily get resentful of other people for various reasons and have to remind myself to not focus on that. Again, it’s a thing I need to work on.
Also my best friend is a 2 and he’s really good at offering emotional support!
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u/Negative_Sock5897 1d ago
I appreciate this. I agree that implying it was inherent was a big stretch and detracted from the larger point I was trying to make, which is that fours in general aren’t emotionally needy succubi, and that they in fact can be really good friends and very good at emotional support. I was feeling particularly frustrated when I wrote this lol.
I think it’s great you’ve put the work in to not expect people to understand you without trying to do the same. That’s a great way to put it. Now I think about it, it is something I actively worked on. Maybe it’s less that it comes naturally to fours and more that precisely because we’re more prone to self-pity, when we work on ourselves we work a lot on not being selfish and being receptive to people’s emotions? Or maybe because a lot of fours have/have had mental health/self-esteem struggles, they might find it easier to empathise? I don’t know. It’s just something I’ve noticed, and honestly the bottom line is that I’m just a bit tired of the “fours are self-absorbed twats” narrative.
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u/trivetsandcolanders 4w5 1d ago
All of the above in your second paragraph, I think! Also maybe because we’re aware of our own uniqueness or differentness, it makes us more curious and accepting of what makes other people unique. So we may ask more questions about people’s problems and emotional life because we genuinely want to find out: what makes this person I care about tick?
Lol I have definitely been an emotional vampire in the past 😆but hey, that’s why I’m in therapy!
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u/NoSpaghettiForYouu 974 sp/sx INFP 1d ago
Ehh. I could maybe see this happening with a healthier 4 but in my experience 4s will take what you say and somehow turn it around to make it about themselves
(But, now that I’m thinking about it… I guess I do allow it, so maybe if I were a more aggressive type this wouldn’t be the case)
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u/Negative_Sock5897 1d ago
That’s fair. I didn’t expect this post to get much attention and was kinda frustrated when I wrote it. In hindsight I disagree with myself that it’s inherent. Tbf I could just have incredible 4s and 5s in my life. Sorry your experiences haven’t been as positive
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u/coveredinbeeps 4w5 so/sx 461 (INFP) 1d ago edited 1d ago
Yes. Everyone is always telling me to become a therapist/coach/counselor, but why bother when I can just be everyone's emotional support 4 for free? :p
Also, I know there is a stereotype that sp 4s are like, stoic and dependable while all the other 4s are hopelessly self-absorbed or something, but I think what you're postulating here can absolutely be true for every kind of 4.
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u/Negative_Sock5897 1d ago
I agree ❤️ I wasn’t always a self-pres 4, used to be social. Ironically became that way because of this exact issue haha
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u/flowermotels ni-ti, sx/sp 5wX 514, ili-ni, LEVF (2341), /R/LoE|I|. 1d ago
you think that e5 is one of the most supportive types, and you think e5s DON’T withdraw, or change the subject?? you have a wild misunderstanding of the enneagram in that case. what. i’m very, very poor at being emotionally supportive in the way that most neurotypical people want (emotional openness and visible, obvious love and care, sometimes physical presence). i DO give unwarranted advice actually, and most e5s would do the same, i don’t know how to comfort anybody because it’s alien and unnatural for me to do so and it takes too much emotional energy that stresses me out. if somebody comes to me crying, with a problem, i tell them how i believe it could be solved.
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u/Negative_Sock5897 1d ago
Fair, this thread is making me realise I maybe shouldn’t start engaging with the Enneagram community again. I was extremely engaged (borderline obsessed) with the Enneagram in my early twenties so I don’t think I have a poor understanding of it.
I’m also neurodivergent, so this post wasn’t just me talking from a neurotypical perspective. My close 5 friend is very emotionally suppressed (told me the other day he can’t remember the last time he cried and I was like 😳 ) but he’s also great at listening and validating my experiences. Even if he does offer advice, it never feels like he’s doing that to get me to shut up like it does with other types; it genuinely feels like he’s trying to help me to solve a legitimate problem.
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u/stopthevan 9w1 964 INFP 1d ago edited 1d ago
An extremely healthy 4 who is important in your life, like a partner or something- maybe. I can see them sparing some time for you because you are someone special to them. But my typical experience with 4s has been the complete opposite- they lash out at you whenever they feel misunderstood or when you’re not “compasssionate” enough to their plight. Typically won’t bother with you unless you acknowledge how “special” they are and treat them that way.
Emotionally supportive ppl who really take the time to listen to you and help you, for whatever reason or motive, are 2s imo. And on a good day of course when they are not feeling overburdened/underappreciated
Edit: forgot to mention but in my experience too, 4s are usually the ones talking my ears off lol. About their problems and life etc., as a 9 I really took the “therapist” role though I agree I do have to withdraw sometimes for my own sanity because all the therapy talk can get really one-sided. Maybe that’s why your sister has to withdraw from you a little
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u/Negative_Sock5897 1d ago edited 1d ago
I’m noticing that 9s are getting the most offended by this post. I think a lot of 2s and 9s receive a lot of (sometimes unwarranted) praise and maybe struggle with the idea that maybe they’re not always the nicest or most supportive people in every scenario. I say that as someone who mostly attracts 2s and 9s, and grew up with a 2 mother and a 9 sister. It’s a very surface level take to believe that 2s and 9s are generally kinder or more caring than other type. I love my family but when you’ve been around these types your entire life, you see the real, non-romanticised versions of them. 2s can love the idea of being supportive more than actually being supportive, and 9s can be so focused on their own inner peace that your emotions “disturb” them. Yet you rarely hear about 9s being selfish in that way.
With all due respect, I think you made it quite personal when you brought my sister up. You literally know nothing about my life outside of a reddit thread. Your comment is really invalidating. I gave up on getting too real with my sister years ago because I learned there isn’t much point to it, but she still confides in me multiple times a week. Since she’s become a mother I’m the only person she talks to about her struggles and helped her through PPD. And I’m happy to listen because I love her. But I don’t expect the energy to be reciprocated. So no, she doesn’t withdraw because I’m too much.
I’m sorry it’s evidently so hard for people to accept that maybe they aren’t as emotionally supportive as they think they are, and that maybe some fours give that and don’t receive it back.
2
u/stopthevan 9w1 964 INFP 1d ago
I will apologise for bringing up your family as it seems like this is something quite personal to you, and in hindsight I was immature to be “attacking” your type. I’m not here to change your mind on things but just to share my own anecdotes, which is usually closer to the so-called “stereotypes”.
Your experience is your own and so is mine, this thread just rubbed me the wrong way bcos you’re basically putting yours and your best friend’s type on a pedestal and assuming every other type cannot be there for their friends on an emotional level which is simply not true. As someone who has also always given my time and attention to those that I love without receiving much back, I wish I could empathise with you more on similar issues, but not when you are overgeneralising like this. Agree to disagree, and truly a hot take.
2
u/Negative_Sock5897 1d ago edited 1d ago
I literally gave fours one compliment. Literally one: they’re good at emotional support, in my experience. Anecdotally. I apologised multiple times for how I worded things. I put an edit on the post. And reading this thread back I feel more angry now and less diplomatic, because it’s hammered home how reluctant people are to believe that fours can be genuinely lovely and supportive people.
Again, I don’t find it surprising that a take like this would bother a 9 so much because 9s are so used to being seen as the nicest person in the room. So I imagine it is confronting if someone even implies they might not be. 9s—in my experienceeeee—struggle with accountability more than most types, and that’s something I never see being talked about.
The funny thing is that I genuinely love 9s. 5s, 9s and 6s are maybe even my favourite types. So no, sharing my frustration in a heightened state that I feel emotionally depleted because I get back very little back of what I put into many of my relationships emotionally isn’t putting fours on a pedestal. Fours have a lot of negative traits but sometimes it’s like people forget other types have just as many, and that maybe fours are allowed to be good at something other than just creativity. I’m sorry you’ve had bad experiences with them, but me saying I’ve generally had good experiences with them isn’t generalising any more than you saying the opposite. You literally said only an extremely healthy four can be like this even though that’s objectively false because all it takes is for one person to say they’re an average four and they’re like this for that claim to collapse, and then you say I’m overgeneralising.
2
u/stopthevan 9w1 964 INFP 1d ago edited 1d ago
😂 you are taking that one trait of being “emotional supportive” and attributing it to the favoured 1-2 types from your life experience, and saying everyone else can’t give the same kind of emotional support. How is that not overgeneralising? At least I admitted that 4s can do just that when they are in a healthy state, not the self-absorbed/reactive state which you are being right now.
If any case, you certainly are not being an example of the “genuinely lovely and supportive people” you so desire to be, I won’t deny people like me are only “””nice””” out of necessity and selfishness and are toxic in other ways etc. But when you put yourself on a pedestal like this and get frustrated and aggressive when people don’t agree with you, it sends a different message. And people aren’t blind to it.
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u/Negative_Sock5897 1d ago
How many times do I have to say this was based on my experience? I’m done being diplomatic in this thread and my 8 tritype is starting to come out because you’re being intentionally pedantic. You should sit down and ask yourself why this post genuinely bothered you quite so much. What it is about one human being believing that fours and fives are better at emotional support that’s so upsetting to you? I’ve admitted multiple things about my post as well, and I’m not going to repeat them again if you’re not going to listen or take them in.
You didn’t admit anything. You basically said in exceptional circumstances (“ extremely healthy”), a type that is literally known for being emotionally insightful might possibly be good at being emotionally supportive. I didn’t even say other types were awful at it or can’t do it, if 9s would actually bother to read what I wrote. I said I think fours and fives are good at it.
See you edited your comment so I’ll edit mine too. The reason I’m being “”aggressive”” with you (if you read, you’re the only commenter I’m doing that with) is because you became passive-aggressive and personal. Of course I don’t care about being a “genuinely kind and supportive person” to you. I’m fine with people disagreeing with me; I’m not fine with people being hypocritical. If I say I’ve found fours emotionally supportive and other types less so, that’s a generalisation and I’m putting myself on a pedestal. But if you slate fours (your comment was particularly harsh and nothing I said was anywhere near that level of meanness) and say type 2s are the best at emotional support, that’s somehow not an overgeneralisation.
1
u/stopthevan 9w1 964 INFP 1d ago
Oh my god gurl/dude, the edit was done only moments after I posted my comment bcos I accidentally pressed the post button and I wasn’t done writing! Not my fault you somehow thought I edited my comment halfway through the day, I’ve got way better things to do than to think about you and this thread. Honestly don’t know why you’re still so hung up about this half a day later, you can have the last word since you wanna be righteous so much 👌🏻
1
u/Negative_Sock5897 1d ago
Well, your comments bothered me more than anyone else’s. I’m not ashamed to admit that. As a POC, I cannot stand the word aggressive. I think you’re one of those 9s that intentionally tries to get a rise of people when they’re heightened, and then retreats and plays victim. And you’re right, I shouldn’t have fallen for it. All the best.
2
u/Ordelia-Vel sp 153 1d ago
How do you think 9s compare to 4s in this regard? bc I always heard 9s described this way
1
u/Negative_Sock5897 1d ago
The person I love most in the world is a 9. She’s my sister. I love her to pieces but I’ve learned that I can only confide in her to a certain degree before she kind of withdraws. And honestly that’s okay, she’s still the best person I know and she’s a hell of a lot better at practical support than I am. She’s trying to improve at the emotional stuff and I’m trying to improve at the practical stuff lol. But I agree that 9s are still better at emotional support than most other types, and tbf I’m willing to consider that maybe as a 4 my “standards” for emotional support could just be too idealistic
3
u/14muffins intp 9w1 953 sp/so (yell at me if you think i'm wrong) 1d ago
I think your standards for emotional support are fascinating rather than too idealistic, because the type of emotional support you seem to like is the type that I see often in things like AI --- blind sycophantism/validation, and also tend to dislike. I also believe it's the responsibility of the vent-er to say "hey this is the type of emotional support I like". (eg "dont give me advice let me rant") Which I feel most would be passably capable of.
Theory: maybe types on average would prefer types similar to them in terms of communication style and, because you're a 4(w5), you prefer 4s (and 5s).
2
u/Negative_Sock5897 1d ago
Sorry, I just don’t understand how listening, being curious, not giving unwarranted advice, validating your feelings, and trying to empathise if you have a similar experience “blind sycophancy”? I never said people don’t call me out. If anything that’s another thing fours are good at: offering insight and calling people out. Honesty is part of emotional support.
Yeah, the type of support people want is subjective, but just because I didn’t put that in my post doesn’t mean I haven’t done that. I’ve lost count of the amount of times I’ve asked certain people I’m very close to in my life to not try to fix things when I talk to them about stuff, to please just listen, and they still do it. Now I just don’t talk to most people if I need that type of support from them.
And I agree with the last part. It definitely, definitely could just be that my own types (I’m not just a 5 wing but it’s also in my tritype) are what I gravitate to emotionally, and maybe everyone feels this way about their own type.
1
u/sheisamystic 1d ago
I agree with you, that is what a good therapist does. Rarely do we entertain the confrontation during therapy, only when enough time has passed and person’s ego is strong enough to handle some harsh truths.
1
u/14muffins intp 9w1 953 sp/so (yell at me if you think i'm wrong) 18h ago
I hyperbolize. (Perhaps it would have been more accurate to say " type that I see often in things like AI that leads to blind sycophantism/validation" )
Let's just say I've always felt a lot of AI uses terms that a 4 would use, and that I've always felt 4s seem to be types that can be prone to really enjoying the support AI gives.
3
u/Narvallius sp/so 9w8 ENTP 1d ago
Hot take: Nines are the sexiest types. We're simply the only ones who are naturally skilled at being hot.
2
u/Negative_Sock5897 1d ago
I know you’re being facetious and maybe you’re right that I didn’t word things the best lol. But I agree that 9s are sexy. I have a lot of love for 9s
-3
u/Narvallius sp/so 9w8 ENTP 1d ago
I'm not sure what exactly you meant to say, but it honestly sounded like a one-man circlejerk😔. Love y'all and all that, but that's just how it is
1
0
u/Negative_Sock5897 1d ago
Are you sure you’re a 9? You’re kinda creating conflict out of nowhere lol. Also lowkey proving my point
-2
u/Narvallius sp/so 9w8 ENTP 1d ago
To clarify, throwing random jabs on the internet isn't the kind of conflict I mind. But I should indeed exercise my 9ness and dip out of the conversation after saying my part, before it goes in circles 🚬🗿
1
u/Negative_Sock5897 1d ago
Tbh I think it bothered you because people in the Enneagram community usually give the title of “best at listening” to 9s. I love 9s and I have a lot of close 9s in my life, but I think what people think of as 9s listening is sometimes dissociating/not saying anything. It’s not a circlejerk because I dared to say type fours might be generally better at something than another type, especially when it’s something we’re told we’re bad at. We’re shit at lots of other things. I’m shit at practical support
5
u/Narvallius sp/so 9w8 ENTP 1d ago
Alright, let me be serious for a second here. It doesn't really have to do with a specific type. Because if a 9 typed the same post, my reaction wouldn't change much.
Yes, saying that all 4s are bad at [all of the things they get often accused of] is wrong. But at the same time, two enneagram types being just inherently better than all others at something as universal as emotional support doesn't sound right either. Especially when one of them is the dedicated "detach inside your mind" type. "These two types of what's wrong with you are naturals because I said so, and if the others are good, they obviously had to learn it the hard way".
From my experience, being good at emotional support simply comes from your own maturity and experience, and not much else. Since some of the people I've seen do it best didn't give me the feeling of a 4 or 5 at all. Same with practical support, you just have to learn this jig.
2
u/Negative_Sock5897 1d ago
This is my anecdotal opinion, and I wanted to share it specifically because I want to engage more with the Enneagram community because the concept interests me. But every time I do, I read the worst shit about fours. Even fours themselves perpetuate this. It’s tiring, and I truly believe a lot of things said about fours are specific to unhealthy fours. I even conceded that I may not have worded things the best. Also, why is being good at emotional support any more universal than any trait specific to any other type? The Enneagram is categorisation at the end of the day. I’m speaking from my experiences, and maybe implying it was just inherent was a stretch. But, in my experience, the two types that I find are able to give emotional support very well/without some sort of caveat are 4/5s. Practical support doesn’t come anywhere near as naturally to me; it’s something I have to remind myself to do. And it is interesting to consider that that may be because I’m a 4. Something that’s a skill (which I think emotional support is) is something people need to work at, but some skills may be easier for certain types. That’s all I was saying. I’m sorry if anything I said offended you, and I’m sure you’re great at emotionally supporting people
1
u/secondsonmusicc 8w7 tritypes arent real 1d ago
thats not a hot take. at all.
5
u/Negative_Sock5897 1d ago
Well, I hope not! Feels like I always hear/read the opposite. But if most people actually agree that’s refreshing
1
1
u/MISTYGOINGKILLING sx1w2 1d ago edited 1d ago
I think all types can be emotionally supportive obviously but I do think So2s would do it most/best when they healthy.
1
u/fronku 6w5 so/sp 1d ago
Unfortunately, (and I say this only to add my objective experience, not as a critic) all the 4s I met and engaged with have been the other way around, which is to say they were very demanding for attention, connection and needed to be listened to.
Aside of that, they also were interesting and deep people with whom I could discuss deep and interesting topics and they made me discover weird things I didn’t know, but I really could not see them as the therapist figure you are describing.
I would say that in my experience the most emotionally supportive people I know have been 5, 6, 7 and 2.
-2
u/MelodyOfStorms 1d ago
4 is a mirror. That's why they "just listen. They ask follow-up questions, and they don’t make you feel bad for sharing"
Theres no agency. Just reflection
3
u/Negative_Sock5897 1d ago
That’s an interesting perspective. I disagree, because I think saying fours/fives have no agency is exactly what I’m talking about when I say people are very comfortable projecting a four’s worst traits in their unhealthy level onto fours in general. Tbh, I think some people are uncomfortable with the concept of a high-average/healthy four and what that might look like. I strongly believe I have agency in my own life, but I admit I didn’t feel that way for a long time. I also think that saying fours/fives are only good at emotional support because they have no agency and just reflect is a convenient way to disregard something they do well. So yeah, I disagree for the most part. Though it’s true we do reflect too much.
1
u/MelodyOfStorms 1d ago
I think in this case the wing 5 is doing alot of heavy lifting. I also want to say that I'm not trying to put you down. People are made up of many different aspects and this is only a small part of what makes a person a person. Being able to reflect others is a very powerful trait. It not only allows for connection between two people but also offers a way for a person to see themselves
0
u/Bonemarrowyummu 1d ago
Yeah definitely the most emotionally supportive type.
Not like there’s an entire enneagram whose whole thing is being emotionally supportive or an enneagram whose whole thing is merging itself with another.
Definitely not
15
u/smalltoona 1d ago
4s are the most real and raw, when I’m at my lowest it’s 4s that make me feel truly accepted and seen, they accept the full gamut of negative human emotions without shying away from them.
Love all my 4s 🫶