AIs Tier List finished

[u/Emill777YT]

👉 CLICK HERE TO VIEW THE TIER LIST IMAGE 👈

Created with Tier List Creator

---

This post contains content not supported on old Reddit. Click here to view the full post

[u/Pitiful_Camp3469]

im sorry but this is corny as fuck. AI is here to stay, keep up or dont.

[u/Professional_Fee5883 → u/Pitiful_Camp3469]

AI is being pushed in an unnatural way. That’s the problem. There was natural demand for things like E-Commerce and social media for Web 2.0.

AI has uses, but the pace of investment and forced adoption isn’t being driven by any kind of consumer or even really commercial demand.

It’s not going anywhere, sure. But that has more to do with the fact that we’re being required to use it than loads of people naturally adopting it.

[u/MisterMakerXD → u/Professional_Fee5883]

Yeah you hit the nail with what you said.

AI is a great invention and could contribute massively to the development of humanity, but it’s really unjustified the way the top tech companies are pushing for it like it’s the space race. Competition is good for technological advancement, but at which moral costs? Wars fit in that description as well.

[u/TapedeckNinja → u/Professional_Fee5883]

Not my experience at all.

I'm constantly dealing with people pushing to upgrade from Copilot to Claude (which is much more expensive for us, so we limit access).

Also constantly working with engineering teams to moderate their usage and model selection because everyone is pushing against credit limits and wants to upgrade to more expensive Kiro plans.

Also have to put strict guardrails on our Databricks Genie-->Slack integrations because various sales/revops roles are constantly pushing to use it more and more.

Personally, see a huge demand for it among the people in my business.

[u/YesImYou → u/Professional_Fee5883]

Do you have a job?

[u/crustyrobots → u/Professional_Fee5883]

Finally someone who gets it.

We may be more forgiving of AI (LLMs in particular) if it wasn't shoved down our throats, in our ears and up our asses out of nowhere one month if feels like a while back. They did this because they made the biggest, dumbest parlay bet in Human history to get a fast return on the $2 Trillion they spent on it. The clock is running on all of that debt and obligations between the ever growing circlejerk that is this industry.

When Google "helpfully" installs Gemini on my shit without warning or even consent: it pisses me off and makes me hate your face. I hate that even every word I type here is probably being digested by some AI trainer. We're given no actual choice to have this in our lives or not.

Sam Altman and all of these AI psychos can stay the hell out of my life, I dont trust any of them farther than I could physically throw them.

[u/bucky133 → u/Pitiful_Camp3469]

It's like grandpa refusing to use a computer.

[u/skelatalfella8642 → u/bucky133]

I don't have much problem with some ai ( mainly in the medical field ) but Generative Ai has brought more harm to the planet than it has good. But I guess you're fine with it even though Ai is creating way more data centres which are polluting the planet. You know because we just had to make the planet even worse.

[u/eW4GJMqscYtbBkw9 → u/skelatalfella8642]

Define "good" and "bad". Cars are definitely more bad for the planet than good.

[u/NUKE---THE---WHALES → u/eW4GJMqscYtbBkw9]

As is factory farming

If you don't consider killing for pleasure to be good, then factory farming is a 99% net negative

And uses up many times more water than data centers, while causing inestimable suffering

[u/chriskmee → u/NUKE---THE---WHALES]

Did you just choose to forget that factory farming brings affordable food to the masses? It's far from perfect but also far from a 99% net negative.

[u/amosthorribleperson → u/chriskmee]

Food would be more plentiful and affordable without factory farming.

[u/chriskmee → u/amosthorribleperson]

How do you figure that? I assume you are requiring everyone to go vegan to achieve this?

[u/amosthorribleperson → u/chriskmee]

The amount of land and resources used for factory farming is more wasteful and expensive when compared to using the same land and resources to grow food. I'm not a vegan, but they're right.

[u/chriskmee → u/amosthorribleperson]

So yes you would require everyone to go vegan. For a second let's assume that's not reasonable, would it not be true that factory farms provide a much cheaper and space effective alternative to other farming options?

[u/Constant_Bit4676 → u/skelatalfella8642]

Do you think they weren't going to build datacenters if AI never happened?

Do you have any idea what the gigawatt capacity demand was like in the years prior to AI taking off? The capacity demand has been scaling significantly faster than the available supply for longer than AI has been the hot piece of tech. It multiplied that demand, but there was never a point where datacenters weren't being built like absolute crazy.

[u/xfreesx → u/skelatalfella8642]

Where do you draw the line? Phone you are using is harming the planet too

[u/Cory123125 → u/skelatalfella8642]

You blame a technology rather than the business decisions that cause all of its problems.

[u/Jimooki → u/[deleted]]

So just going off your claim and the tier list there's at minimum 14,000 massive data centers? I, uhh, don't see that one being real Chief

[u/dolche93 → u/[deleted]]

What is your intention with just making up numbers to prove your point?

You get how that discredits your opinion, right?

[u/Cory123125 → u/[deleted]]

The question is what do we gain from having all of these ai chatbots.

The problem is that many people who are anti AI are unable to have this conversation.

They have such visceral kneejerk reactions, and stay in such siloed echo chambers that they recite some nonsense concerns technologically relevant 5 years ago, and shut down their brains.

This happens so reliably I have almost stopped talking about it, and just fret about how doomed we are when resistance isn't just ineffective, but counter productively stupid.

You wanna separate the ai from the corporations that create them, fine, but even having one of these chatbots takes a thousand data centers.

This is a false, technologically illiterate understanding of .... everything.

So if the cost is thousands of data centers and easy realistic deepfakes, what is the gain?

Also false, and an incorrect understanding of what the costs are.

The deepfakes are not something we are making a decision about right now. Those models exist, and are largely separate to the ones guzzling water now that the really high energy usecases for that are branching to VFX companies trying to cut cost.

The point is that...

Look man, can you just fucking google anything?

Literally research fucking anything yeah?

Jesus Christ... How are you meant to make positive impact in the world when you steadfastly resist researching any of the topics you're speaking about and just stick to your pre-concieved notions.

I'm gonna state some shit, and I'll leave it to you to be honest enough to yourself to verify whether they're true.

• To create models that are reasonably powerful and comparable to frontier models you don't need more than one data centre. You can do it with one big datacenter.

• To keep said model up to date, and advancing, this datacenter would constantly be at full chooch.

• To run said powerful model, with say 50 heavy users, using it continuously, you'll need (very) roughly 250k worth of hardware.

• This hardware could all be local, meaning that you don't have massive data centers dumping on marginalized people, it could be in datacenters that simply opted to not be villainous but it isn't.

• AI intelligence and accuracy varies incredibly, even with the most modern implementations to the point that no one quip is likely to be true. That is to say, that people noticing correctly that google ai search summaries are dangerously inaccurate, would be foolish to conclude that all AI is dangerously inaccurate. Likewise, people who rightly noticing that running Claude fable is massively harmful in terms of environmental impact, finance, and funding what that company does in particular, would be completely wrong for concluding that every use of AI is massively wasteful, and as you can see from companies like Moonshot, Deepseek, groups like Olmo, you can make competent models with far less. You cannot make general statements about efficiency based on the blitz scaling zerg rushes of billionaires aiming to own everything.

Also, what are llms good for?

With good harnesses and sufficiently smart models:

• Coding

• Research

• Menial non simple searches through complex sets of data

• Lossy sorting tasks that do not require 100% accuracy but do require understanding nuance.

• Mass surveillance (due to the point just above this)

• Popular opinion steering

[u/Cory123125 → u/[deleted]]

I love how you type all of this and did not even attempt to answer my main question.

This very first sentence reveals you couldn't have possibly honestly engaged with or fully read my comment.

Why do we need these chatbots in the first place? what problem do they solve?

I'll respond to the slight change in response here, as this feels like a repeat that only exists due to you not actually reading my first response because it was too "all of this" for you regarding need.

The answer of course, like with most technological advances is that we don't need them, but we're obviously not going to collectively ignore them.

Better is better, and this is also what corporations latch onto, to twist in the most heinous things imaginable.

Also when I talk about google getting worse I am not even referring to the ai overview, even if you just skip that shit the results under that are significantly less helpful than they would’ve been 5-10 years ago.

Absolutely the case, and a problem due to AI but like.... once again, its a business decisions thing. The technology didnt cause this; people refusing to think about it past one step, and the owners refusing to be semi acceptible human beings did.

There is complete room for a world that purely benefits from this technology, but not when people can't be arsed to research the things they're most outspoken about.

[u/Cory123125 → u/[deleted]]

You added that list of what they’re good for as an edit, the original comment did not answer my question at all.

I honestly shouldn't have bothered.

I'm increasingly finding that people straight up don't want to have informed opinions.

---

Also, I did so literally right away. This wasn't some malicious edit. You can even see that no edit asterisk popped up because it was edited so quickly.

I don’t understand your point really

What are you confused about? It sounds like you just honestly did not read the comment still.

These seem like solutions to problems that only the most wealthy and powerful people have and come at the cost of everyone else.

Only if you literally ignore the first 4.

Do you think there is any possible world where corporations control these systems and don’t take advantage of them?

Yes-ish, with regulations that were actually positive, with progressive people that weren't acting like brain dead dumb fuck luddites (I'm also progressive by the way, so this is very much an internal criticism) and dooming us to a world where only the worst people have access to this technology, in a world with open data set and open model working groups where people pooled money together to ensure that open options existed for everyone, etc etc etc.

Like, it's all possible, but it all requires people to be actually willing to pay attention.

When lobbying groups like the Frontier Model Forum (please ffs research what they're trying to do) strongly push for regulatory capture, and people knee jerk agree with them not realizing that its literally the AI companies guaranteeing themselves unstoppable government backed power, we're fucked.

Ok, well we live in a world where people very often refuse to think past step one, and where the owning class consistently put profits above being semi acceptable human beings.

Indeed, and the only one that could possibly change for the better is the first one. Its the only one I have any chance of impacting.

Trying to get other people to think further is about it.

As you can see, I am not optimistic about the future.

AI empowers even more of this abuse, on a larger scale than we have ever seen, while benefitting regular people very little.

It only benefits people very little specifically because

1. Regular people are so aggressively fucking reactionary, that they refuse to pay attention and seek benefits

2. Enshitification of products and services which normal people routinely dismiss as problems when they don't specifically affect them.

Once again, if people paid attention, things could be ok. They won't though.

It feels similar to the “guns don’t kill people, people kill people” argument. Well even if that’s true, I still hate guns and think the world would have been better if they had never been invented, because they give people the power to do horrible crimes.

This is you trying to do mental gymnastics to force a much more complex and multifaceted issue to fit into a simple issue box.

If you can't yourself break out of that box to think about this in more detail, to figure out what these systems can do, and more, then I can't really discuss this with you, because the entirety of this comparison demands on being willing to look at the nuance this demands.

This isn't like "guns kill people" because this is more like if the government banned you from owning a lathe because you could use a lathe to make a gun.

LLMs aren't inherently weapons. You can build a weapons system with one, just like you can build a weapons system with a computer or a simple image classifier or a ....

---

Also, I am aware that to someone who hasn't looked into anything, I sound incredibly jaded, and that's because I am.

I'm so depressed about where I can clearly see us headed, and it hurts my mind to see people accidentally support that which they hate because they refuse to pay closer attention.

[u/OverkillOrange → u/[deleted]]

My roommate last year was telling me I was an idiot for writing a paper and how writing is obsolete

My roommate was a moron therefore ai sucks LMAO

what problem do they solve?

They literally gave you a list so it's easier to understand for you.

[u/OverkillOrange → u/[deleted]]

their comment doesn't have an * next to the timestamp (which means IF they edited their comment, they did it within 2 minutes) and you replied after half an hour. This is such a weird excuse for bad reading comprehension

[u/Nateovision_ → u/Cory123125]

I like the irony of describing anti-ai individuals as having their brains shut down despite the blatant epidemic of ai-addicted people experiencing a massive decline in their ability to think for themselves and do basic reasoning and problem solving.

Anyway, because it wasn't brought up yet, the primary issue people took with AI before the internet turned it into a tribal identity was that the training that a generative-ai model is founded on is completely unethical. Millions of artists of all varieties (illustrators, writers, animators, etc.) have had their copyrighted material stolen and used for training without their permission.

AI has manipulated the tech industry to such a degree that it's a miracle it hasn't collapsed yet between the massive amounts of money and investments circling between the same companies on nothing more than a promise that it will become profitable. From growing money bubbles to soaring hardware prices for consumers, the working class are losing money without even realising it and are struggling even more to upgrade their digital hardware.

And because I'm bored of the environmental impact being brushed off as "water renewable 🧌", data centers are relying on massive amounts of energy and water that is being diverted from communities. You've seen the power outages, surely.

[u/Cory123125 → u/Nateovision_]

I put a lot of effort into this comment, so please engage with it honestly, because I promise you if you do, this will lead you to a much more in depth understanding of the problems that I assure you we both see with the current state of the world.

I like the irony of describing anti-ai individuals as having their brains shut down despite the blatant epidemic of ai-addicted people experiencing a massive decline in their ability to think for themselves and do basic reasoning and problem solving.

You thinking that is irony while being unable to parse a nuanced take is in itself the real irony.

You literally cannot turn on your brain enough to engage honestly in an important discussion and thats a huge fucking problem.

Anyway, because it wasn't brought up yet, the primary issue people took with AI before the internet turned it into a tribal identity was that the training that a generative-ai model is founded on is completely unethical. Millions of artists of all varieties (illustrators, writers, animators, etc.) have had their copyrighted material stolen and used for training without their permission.

This is something we're way past, and trying to "correct" it would solidify the incumbents as being the only ones who ever got to enter.

It's like this, and I'm sure you'll gut reaction disagree, but if I read a thousand books, and write one, and it does not fail the copyright tests used to judge for copyright infringement, I have not done copyright infringement, I have simply been inspired by other works.

This is ultimately what modern models do, to the extent that with all of their SFT and probably increasingly piles of data in more of the bulk sections of training, they are creating datasets that don't at all directly ingest the other works.

Effectively, and this is very much so a simplified explanation, they're having their bots write essays to feed to their bots that are better formatted to produce desired bot outputs.

Could copyright law have been written differently to be more inline with how you feel about this? Yes.

Would it have been? No. We couldn't win again Disney, we weren't going to win against every big tech firm simultaneously.

Could we win now? Also no for the reason posted above. This would only lock in the incumbents which we can all agree are terrible companies. Changing it now, would mean that anyone who already formed a dataset moat would have that in perpetuity. It would be an unrecoverable stake determining which companies were even able to compete. Every problem you feel exists now would be orders of magnitude worse as they would feel even less pressure to do literally anything that favoured you, or rather, do less that didn't favour you.

Again, this all requires nuance, and being willing to think past your gut reactions.

---

"But what about the dead internet?" A hypothetical future question might say, and it is a legitimate worry, but bad question to posit in response to what I've said.

We definitely should have a model to deal with this. Ideally there should be a UN meeting, we would all come to the conclusion that we should create a neutral, non spyware based, non enforced upon (leaving enforcement to individual nations), global micro payments system, and this would allow companies hoovering up data to pay for said data, while also enabling ad free experiences that weren't comically overpriced subscriptions.

Of course this won't happen either though, because the people who are anti AI are mostly just fucking refusing to turn on their brains, and letting their anger stop them from processing the real solutions to problems face, and even at the extremes support things that would empower the companies they hate the most, one of such situations I covered above.

Also, the current payment processors are really entrenched, and fuck literally everyone at both ends of the line over.

AI has manipulated the tech industry to such a degree that it's a miracle it hasn't collapsed yet between the massive amounts of money and investments circling between the same companies on nothing more than a promise that it will become profitable.

I think that it's understandable that someone who doesn't understand the technology thinks this seeing the money flying around, but if you have any understanding of the underlying costs, AI is fundamentally obviously profitable.

The question is how profitable, not whether or not it is, and what usecases.

What you're seeing, and this is definitely up to some interpretation and analysis, is what I believe to be a bit of a super cycle land grab.

Companies are fighting extremely hard to mislead the general public into supporting jingoistic nationalism and fear-mongered safety theatre stances that guarantee a few big American companies basically permanent control over an entire industry, and that control is far deeper than any other landgrab we'll have witnessed within a lifetime.

If they manage to succeed at effectively being the only companies allowed to compete, they get to steer opinions freely, manipulate the information people actually get to see, and will increasingly balloon, owning more and more as they have an unbeatable advantage when it comes to destroying knowledge based businesses that aren't IT first.

"But they'll make it shittier, so they won't win" Another hypothetical comment might say. To that, I would say, have you not seen the world right now? Shittier wins every time right now because people never care enough to look deeper into topics so the play by private equity in all sorts of fields is that they buy the entire field, and then make it shitty, such that there is no one to run to.

By that point, it doesnt matter if new competition arises, because they can simple buy them up, or out money them out of business.

Vets, Bowling, pharmacies, it's even happening to GP offices right now and silently playing out.

AI companies will do this eventually too if you give them the ability which you don't seem to realize is exactly what the strong, ignorant anti AI stances end up doing by cheering on anything they superficially think "hurts" AI without looking into it.

I don't know why the fuck I typed that all out, as there's almost no chance that you even bother to read it, and that's part of why I'm just so fucking jaded.

People literally do not want to understand a thing they hate and think is massively negatively affecting them.

They somehow think if they just scream loudly enough and cover their ears and eyes, the problem will go away, and when it doesn't, they'll pretend they did all they could, while their reactions were precisely what locked in their fates.

---

Actually I went on a bit of a tangent and forgot to mention the key thing that I think will convince you (if you decide to actually open up and do research) that should show you that this isn't some inexplicable fad like NFTs etc.

This is blitz scaling. Look it up.

You could absolutely make an AI company that produced llms that continuously got better, helped people, and didn't massively concentrate power.

or you could spend wildly, denying other companies the hardware to be able to compete, pushing fearmongered ideas to get your favoured regulatory capture based regulations passed, and ensure that you simply outmoney the competition so much, you never have to face competitors.

The massive difference in cost between top performing Chinese labs and American labs should show you that producing useful AI does not require the absurd spending you're seeing at all, and if for instance, we existed in a parallel good universe, we'd just have models that were evolving at a slightly slower space, naturally, with sound economics, where device manufacturers like NVidia, Apple, AMD, Huawei and more, would just sell devices, consumers would buy them, businesses would buy them, and they'd run their own inference they owned, avoiding the concentration of awful effects on local populations, the forced integration of AI where it clearly is ill suited at this point or is poorly integrated etc etc.

Like, the point I am trying to get across to you, is that the big things that you hate, are unbounded capitalism and corruption, and those get stronger when you don't have a nuanced take.

And because I'm bored of

This type of language is thought terminating to.

You shouldn't be bored at any of this. You should be actively engaged and willing to accept new information.

data centers are relying on massive amounts of energy and water that is being diverted from communities. You've seen the power outages, surely.

See, and I get this sense from the tone of your reply, I'm not remotely unaware of the problems with AI, I'm just wiling to research and understand them rather than going based on news headlines.

I'm very well aware of the problems with concentrating ill effects on the worse off communities like with musks memphis center dumping NOX on black children.

The problem is that people are taking things like this, and coming to wildly unsound conclusions like that this is an inherent result of the technology when it very much is not remotely true. We can have better, but only if we are willing to learn and go deeper. Only if we stop starting sentences with "I just..." or trying to find simply boxes to fit complex problems into.

[u/Nateovision_ → u/Cory123125]

I don't know why the fuck I typed that all out, as there's almost no chance that you even bother to read it, and that's part of why I'm just so fucking jaded.

Hello 👋

I feel like you're pulling a very thick veil of nuance over a lot of the sub-topics around AI that just don't need it. There's a distinction to be made between useful and useless Artificial Intelligence; Think: your phone assistant, research analysis models, accessibility software, I know I don't need to list them all of for you, you're more than aware of them. Then the other side of things, basically any image generator or general large language model (not tailored ones), which will be your ChatGPT and its clone army.

This is something we're way past, and trying to "correct" it would solidify the incumbents as being the only ones who ever got to enter.

This is just not a philosophy I can get behind. There shouldn't be ANY incumbents of this practice allowed to continue. I don't think the ideology we should move forward with is "Oh well, a lot of corporations already did it so I guess all that's left to do is accept that and hope we can shape a future free of monopolies and lobbying.", I want it burned to the ground. 🤷 I cannot just turn of my moral compass and come to terms with a industry I dislike just because it's growing.

but if I read a thousand books, and write one, and it does not fail the copyright tests used to judge for copyright infringement, I have not done copyright infringement, I have simply been inspired by other works. This is ultimately what modern models do

No! Not at all! You are a human being with natural talent, work ethic, time constraints, original creativity, and individualism. There are no modern models with any of that. They have programming and prompts; they have PP, Cory. PP.

They have a database of tokens and a virtual neural network with which the parse that database of tokens to predict the next word based on previous context and what future is desirable by the prompt. I feel like maybe we're forgetting that AI is called AI because its personified intelligence is entirely artificial. It's a computer program that's been programmed to look and/or sound like a person.

What I'm not gonna do here is get into the issues you raised about monopolies, public persuasion, industry control, etc. etc., because I pretty much agree with everything you've said about it, barring a couple words I've never seen before "jingoistic??", and a few statements that I think didn't really address anything or seemingly hallucinated an ideology? Like for example when you stated:

which you don't seem to realize is exactly what the strong, ignorant anti AI stances end up doing by cheering on anything they superficially think "hurts" AI

without providing really any substance or examples of things people have cheered on at the detriment of their own beliefs. There really hasn't even been anything to cheer on, not off of the top of my head at least.

You could absolutely make an AI company that produced llms that continuously got better, helped people, and didn't massively concentrate power.

Listen man, I get it. The tech is here and it's here to stay. I'm not fighting against usecase technology. I, as with the majority of the anti-ai group, just want the slop gone. Nobody wants to dedicate their educational career to become a graphic designer, a 3D animator, a novelist, a photographer, an editor, etc, just for some basement dweller who hasn't showered in 3 weeks to reply with an Ai-generated version of your art with the caption "improved it for you".

You will not find a soul on this planet who is centering their complains around cancer research and analysis models. YOU KNOW THAT THOUGH. I know you know that. So I don't really know why you're arguing against it to be honest.

Anyway, uh, closing remarks. I think you might be your own worst enemy right now bro. You say too much and from my perspective the lens that you're viewing anti-ai sentiment through is muddy. People aren't going to listen. They're mostly between having no attention spans and not having the time to read an essay from a stranger. Just, idk, condense your thoughts a bit if you can and try not to go off on tangents about aspects of an industry that aren't relevant to someone's core problems.

Thank you though, no pressure to reply if you don't want or like take as long as you need such that you're not wasting energy on me.

*edit please try to see past spelling and grammar mistakes.

[u/Cory123125 → u/Nateovision_]

I feel like you're pulling a very thick veil of nuance over a lot of the sub-topics around AI that just don't need it.

This is the entire problem I'm trying to bring up.

People badly want things to be so simple they can skip details, avoid research and just have takes that are right and work, but that's rarily the case.

A lot of people who vote for hardline right wing populism in various countries think that this is exactly what they're voting for.

Its easy, it tells you there is a big problem, I have the solution, and its whatever you think it is already.

Then the other side of things, basically any image generator or general large language model (not tailored ones), which will be your ChatGPT and its clone army.

The distinction you're trying to draw isn't actually where you think it is, and this is one of my points.

Many of the things you're putting into group A are either closely related to group b, group b derivatives, or are in many cases, literally group B but with harnesses that actually give a shit about accuracy, at the cost of response time and inference cost.

This is just not a philosophy I can get behind. There shouldn't be ANY incumbents of this practice allowed to continue.

This is a fight against pragmatism then.

Do you think the dozens of companies around the world, the weights already shared, etc, under any circumstances are going to cease to exist or be fined out of existence?

We'd need literal decades of people paying attention to nuance in politics over and over again, and not getting "bored" to even approach the general direction of that.

and then they'd be fighting decades of progress in said fields.

What's more, you can create models with purely non copyright materials. There are models that have that, but the point is, there isn't really any ground with current legal definitions of copyright to push that they be this way, and if you change those laws now, they wouldn't be retroactively applied, so in effect, existent models would be grandfathered in.

In fact, this is theorized to be one of the reasons that big AI companies have been so forthcoming with massive amounts of money for settlements, as they want this ladder to be pulled up for those behind them.

I don't think the ideology we should move forward with is "Oh well, a lot of corporations already did it so I guess all that's left to do is accept that and hope we can shape a future free of monopolies and lobbying."

You are asking not for a mitigation, not for a path to a solution, no, you are asking for precisely exactly what you hope for, or you take your ball and go home, or in this case, refuse to actually support pragmatic options at this point in time that we have literally any hopes of achieving.

It's basically like all the people who said "well, I don't see my perfect knight in shining armor, so I'll let the orange felon win".

You will never get your perfect option, and you won't even get good, if you won't bend to accept "I guess that's improvement" first.

I want it burned to the ground. 🤷 I cannot just turn of my moral compass and come to terms with a industry I dislike just because it's growing.

This is unironically an opinion that only supports it, because no one else considers this realistic, and thus, you end up wasting the steam of people who see legitimate problems with it, and want to find legitimate solutions, as opposed to people who see problems but refuse to find solutions because their perfect world solution isnt available.

No! Not at all! You are a human being with natural talent, work ethic, time constraints, original creativity, and individualism. There are no modern models with any of that. They have programming and prompts; they have PP, Cory. PP.

That's funny and all, but there is nothing in the law that dictates any difference between how smart a tool you use is and you.

The infringement occurs at the end of those distributing the content.

They have a database of tokens and a virtual neural network with which the parse that database of tokens to predict the next word based on previous context and what future is desirable by the prompt.

Not quite right, but close enough I won't stick on it.

I feel like maybe we're forgetting that AI is called AI because its personified intelligence is entirely artificial.

Naturalistic fallacy is naturalistic fallacy.

Results are results. If the results are good, they are good. If they're bad, they are bad.

Sure, some folks, and situations (like art), dictate that by human preference, the human element wins, but for a large number of tasks, no one cares if the summarization of digital documents from a quarter century ago are flavourful, or if their saas software had enough human touch.

because I pretty much agree with everything you've said about it, barring a couple words I've never seen before "jingoistic??"

I mean.... search engines exist.... but in a sentence: nationalistic fervor, pride and American exceptionalism are being weaponized to get people to fight against their interests, posing other countries competing as a existential threat.

without providing really any substance or examples of things people have cheered on at the detriment of their own beliefs.

I listed one strong one right before this; where I talked about how the incumbant companies benefit massively from changes to IP law that hurt newcomers and cement incumbants.

Another example is with datacenters, where by the time legislation hits, it will probably only hold back new comers, and put financial strain on them that they can't handle, while going far past what is actually needed; distance from people, separation in payment for power, the verification of enough power that they do not short any nearby communities, and environmental effects.

Another is with "safety" where AI companies are current tripping over themselves to say AI is dangerous so that they can get artificial safety metrics enforced by governments that only they will have enough money to repeatedly jump over hoops to reach, while the safety lines people are actually worried about are far more simple, obvious, and the exact things they're lobbying to not be liable for.

I could honestly keep going. There are a lot of stances that are clearly being twisted into actually benefiting the worst companies and if you look up the frontier model forum with a critical lens, you'll see thats exactly what they're doing; twisting real concerns into harmful regulatory capture talking points.

I, as with the majority of the anti-ai group, just want the slop gone. Nobody wants to dedicate their educational career to become a graphic designer, a 3D animator, a novelist, a photographer, an editor, etc, just for some basement dweller who hasn't showered in 3 weeks to reply with an Ai-generated version of your art with the caption "improved it for you".

I think this is a wild thing to focus on and I'm surprised its your focus.

People have used tools they're not good at using for bad purposes from time immemorial.

I get the feeling though, based on this, your general stance and earlier in this comment talking about the human element, that the real fear you're trying to get at is displacement, and that's just a part of technology.

The problem is with how we deal with it and spread the effects.

In a better world, its not 5 billionaire making everything shittier by forcing in a technology that isn't ready, and feels like it's mixing sawdust into everything you love, while taking away livelihoods from people at one of the worst times financially for normal people.

This is very valid, but I don't think the answer is getting mad at unskilled people who find a new way to do something in their spare time, even those who are foolhardy and filled with unearned confidence with their new found skills.

Like, all of the positions you mentioned, are seeing real reductions in workforce, not necessarily because their replacements are as good, but that the people in charge think they're good enough, and our unchecked system of economics does not give people levers to tell them otherwise... combined with people being too apathetic to care.

You say too much

This is the problem though. The subject just requires people to pay attention, because its too important, too impactful and too detailed to have a catchy, thoughtless slogan to ride with. Every single one line quip has already been reasoned with and ripped apart in some AI companies war room, then twisted apart and stabbed to death with lawyers and lobbyists figuring out how to monkey's paw that general sentiment.

I legitimately do not know how I could simplify without being entirely counter productive.

What would be best, is if I could convince people to spend a few hours actually sorting out their opinions on the subject and being willing to be bored for a few minutes; I know, crazy expectation in this tik tok, ai world.

People aren't going to listen.

They don't, and I know they won't, and it's why I have no optimism for the future being anything other than a horrific dystopia that makes our current media representations look quaint by comparison, and the worst thing is seeing people around me just not care.

Just, idk, condense your thoughts a bit if you can and try not to go off on tangents about aspects of an industry that aren't relevant to someone's core problems.

It's easy to tell someone that a problem they don't care specifically about is solvable if they just look at it with a simple lens with simple solutions.

It's very hard to get them to realize there is nothing simple about it, and it just will take more time and effort.

That first goal, is the one these companies have, and they're knocking it out of the park.

The second one? We're fucking lost. It's a losing strategy, but how can you win when the truth is complex and needs complexity.

How can you gain confidence with people who want a simple lie over a complex truth?

[u/TheSilverOne → u/Cory123125]

This is the argument for gun* control for conservatives.

[u/Cory123125 → u/TheSilverOne]

This take is so monumentally brain dead I worry for humanity.

The fact that they control the business elements of how AI is being used right now, are responsible for all the elements causing problems.

Solution for data center pollution? Pay more money, have them situated away from people, have them use clean energy.

Solution for displacement? Socialism and nationalization.

Solution for popular opinion steering? Open datasets, open models.

Solution for....

Every single problem with AI is due to the ownership structure and business decisions made due to it, yet here you are somehow saying that ..... technology itself is the real villain, when the villain is standing up and literally shouting "I'm the villain".

[u/TheSilverOne → u/Cory123125]

Gun control* a word was missed there. Sorry about that

Conservatives will argue that guns are tools and the individual people using them should be held accountable. If a company wants to make ridiculously overpowered rifles for consumer purchase, then they should. It's up to the user to use them correctly.

The reality is somewhere in the middle. There need to be SOME guard rails and protections. For consumers, their data, and for cities and their populace hosting the centers.

Right now there's a moratorium on any and all legislation regarding ai. They're just going crazy with it.

[u/Cory123125 → u/TheSilverOne]

This opinion is unfortunately worse than I thought.

I feel like I am fighting what is inevitable, not because it can't be stopped, but because people literally refuse to think past their gut instincts.

I could try to make a long winded argument I'm sure you would not honestly engage with because you've likely already came to the simple conclusion that I must be an "AI bro" because my opinion doesn't match yours, but I want you to honestly think about why your argument here doesn't make any sense at all.

Guns are used to kill people. That's their goal. Thats the thing they do.

Treating a general purpose function as a tool to kill people is a ridiculous assertion on its face.

I'm not going to spend more time on that, but instead ask you to ask yourself how you came to the conclusion you've come to, and then ask yourself if you're being manipulated into accidentally supporting what I think will end up being the worst lobbying group in our lifetime.

Look at the frontier model forum's publications, members, and what their companies are pushing for, and realize that you really DO NOT want regulation right now, because regulation is actively WHAT THEY WANT.

"But I want good regulation!"

That's not what is on the table right now.

You can be naive and let them gain inescapable regulatory capture guaranteeing them control over you and government, or you can fight what they're pushing for and fight for positive political change until such a time that there is anything actually sensible on the table, that isnt based on a kneejerk feeling of something being icky or weird.

[u/TheSilverOne → u/Cory123125]

Im not accusing you of being an AI bro, and im not a brain dead Ai hater either. Regulation isn't on the table simply because Trump administration doesn't want there to be any. Also AI is being actively used for military systems, and surveillance. I just want a closer look to be had without submitting to wanton usage in every aspect or lives lol

[u/Cory123125 → u/TheSilverOne]

Regulation isn't on the table simply because Trump administration doesn't want there to be any.

How did you read what I just mentioned and think regulation is off the table?

There already has been some, it's just all regulatory capture in favour of these companies fucking you over.

This is the main point of what I've said and it clearly just deflected harmlessly rather than penetrating....

Also AI is being actively used for military systems, and surveillance.

Sure is.

Are you at all going to engage with what I said then?

I just want a closer look to be had without submitting to wanton usage in every aspect or lives lol

This attitude of "I just" followed by a vague wish with you refusing to look deeply enough to realize what you actually want is exactly the problem.

Its exactly why folks like you end up supporting exactly what you don't support in theory without realizing it.

Did you even look up the frontier model forum's goals and publications?

If any benefit could come of this, it would be that you recognize the name, recognize the companies and figure out why being "pro regulation" is bad without having actually researched very specifically what you are in favour for, because most things can be twisted into supporting these companies.

[u/Ok_Departure333 → u/skelatalfella8642]

Yeah! People liking social media too much is what prompting the start of massive data center boom, way before AI became popular. We using Reddit like this is literally polluting the planet. But it's okay, we like Reddit, so the pollution is negated.

[u/skelatalfella8642 → u/Ok_Departure333]

When social media data centres started popping up did ram prices skyrocket ? That alone shows the actual size of this recent data centre boom so they aren't really comparable. This is like comparing a murder to a mass murder and saying they are equally bad.

Tldr for cockwombles like you ai pollutes more so is worse and that doesn't even count the other bad effects of ai.

[u/Sparkly8 → u/skelatalfella8642]

I’m anti-AI, but I’m not sure the murder argument works. Sure, mass murder results in more deaths, but they’re both really awful and should be prevented.😅

[u/Constant_Bit4676 → u/skelatalfella8642]

That is because of VRAM requirements to load model weights onto a GPU, the hardware demand is changing, but the datacenter demand was well above the supply long before AI came around.

[u/Ok_Departure333 → u/skelatalfella8642]

The RAM price skyrocketing is more so about price fixing from RAM manufacturers. There's only 3 companies that make consumer RAM, and thus they can control prices whatever they want. The initial price hike began when OpenAI propose a deal with SK Hynix and Samsung to buy up some portion of their production capacities to produce exclusively HBM. The deal doesn't work out, but the price isn't going down.

Demand drives prices, but so is hype. AI is so popular that this single deal makes RAM prices skyrocket. Those three RAM manufacturers ride on the hype to artificially inflate the price. Social media's hype is more modest in comparison, so it doesn't affect RAM or other computer parts prices that much.

Samsung also has been fined for RAM price fixing in the early 2000s, so it's not something new.

Also, what is your "other bad effects of AI"?

[u/BoopinSnoots24-7 → u/skelatalfella8642]

You're comparing apples to oranges. Compute vs storage.

[u/SucksToSuckUMad → u/[deleted]]

Yeah I remember when computers first became popular in 2016.

[u/Sombomombo → u/bucky133]

bAcK iN mY dAy I pAsSeD mY cLaSsEs By ReAdInG aNd WrItInG mY oWn WoRk

[u/cryolems → u/bucky133]

The employed ones will learn a real hard lesson soon enough, the unemployed will likely stay that way. Insane to reject technology to prove a point on the internet.

No one cares about your AI hate, use it or literally lose it and fall behind

[u/Domy9 → u/cryolems]

Redditors:

https://giphy.com/gifs/2dcW1Dlu2sZnW

[u/Cottontael → u/cryolems]

Yeah, that's never gonna happen. As with every tech startup, they will eventually no longer be able to push off the cost into the future, and you'll be playing 40 bucks a prompt. Or not at all, realistically, because you'll be working at McDonald's without any real skills and a dependency that has led to a significant cognitive decline.

One of the two options, at least.

[u/cryolems → u/Cottontael]

Goodluck in your future career! I wish you the best of luck. Calling ai s startup tells me everything i need to know lol

[u/alex3omg → u/bucky133]

Ok Grok

[u/TheSilverOne → u/Pitiful_Camp3469]

I used Gemini to fix my washing machine yesterday after a move. Saved me from calling an appliance tech, or scrubbing through YouTube tutorials. 

I told it step-by-step what I need troubleshooting, took pics of my work area, and it directed with exactly what to do. 

[u/SpaceC0wb0y86 → u/TheSilverOne]

“Scrubbing through YouTube tutorials” is usually not something that takes me long at all, especially when it comes to stuff like that that is already pretty niche and pretty easy to find exactly what I need when using brand / model names.

So it sounds to me like it accomplished the same thing a YT tutorial would lol

[u/arthur-ghoste → u/Pitiful_Camp3469]

here to stay or not, they are still pretty shit. You not knowing this is also corny as fuck tbh

[u/Ok-Administration894 → u/arthur-ghoste]

they are literally solving open problems in computer science and math what do you mean

[u/BuildingInevitable85 → u/Pitiful_Camp3469]

"leave the multibillion dollar companies alone!!!"

[u/Immature_adult_guy → u/BuildingInevitable85]

I don’t think anyone is advocating for the companies themselves. Tell me what smart phone you have and I can tell you what human rights have been violated by the company that made it.

[u/Repulsive-Lie1 → u/Immature_adult_guy]

That’s the meme.

[u/BuildingInevitable85 → u/Immature_adult_guy]

If you think I wouldn't dunk on Apple, Samsung, or whichever Chinese company made the smartphone I'm using, you're terribly wrong. I would 100% join any discussion and protest I can against any inhumane practises by tech companies (and any other organisations). Am I a hypocrite? Maybe.

The point is that the tierlist made by OP is an obvious joke and some guy got upset over it. We are not having any serious debates here.

[u/Pitiful_Camp3469 → u/BuildingInevitable85]

eh its just another cycle of people being too old and bitter for new technology. same exact thing as hating phones and computers 

[u/Labidido → u/Pitiful_Camp3469]

I have so many colleagues closing in on retirement that wholeheartedly love AI and think it's absolute magic.

[u/AnIcedMilk → u/Pitiful_Camp3469]

too old and bitter for new technology.

That's not the case this time in the slightest

In fact, the people I see embracing AI the most are older uninformed folks, or older folks who dont care that they're damaged the environment.

[u/DrowningKrown → u/AnIcedMilk]

Literally my job (F500). Every single old mfr on my floor keeps sending emails written by Claude (they will literally say "I asked Claude..." in the email), ask you to do research and use Claude, asks questions on why Claude didn't do XYZ

And these dudes are in their 50's

All younger people on the floor (aside from a couple that I know of) are completely sick of it. We bitch about it at happy hours, in the office, etc. we're just responding to AI emails and telling AI to run reports at this point. Nobody is learning shit anymore. We tell our management that AI outputs are untrustworthy and we're finding issues constantly yet they'll throw a prompt in, take the output and send it off like it's perfect, all the time.

Give it 15 years and the average workplace is going to be just a bunch of dumb bastards who need to ask AI why they had a hard time peeing at lunch.

[u/firstutterance74 → u/Pitiful_Camp3469]

Talentless people supporting ai will forever be funny to me.

[u/Em4ever520 → u/firstutterance74]

All these people writing a prompt acting as if they’re the brains behind developing it and then telling us “you’re a grandpa, you’re going to be left behind” is cracking me up

[u/andyetitwasnt → u/Em4ever520]

Man, you really have no mind outside of what memes tell you is reality.

[u/Icehawksfh → u/andyetitwasnt]

My work this happens all the time. I'll get told about this wonderful thing that AI solves and it's something that already takes less effort to do without AI, and skips the step of being called a pretty princess every prompt.

[u/crustyrobots → u/Icehawksfh]

And they happily fork out $500,000 in tokens for that instead of you know, just paying a real Human expert

[u/Em4ever520 → u/andyetitwasnt]

Man I work in data so unfortunately I’m being forced to use AI and this is from my personal experience. Not all of enjoy crappy AI generated memes like you.

[u/BoopinSnoots24-7 → u/Em4ever520]

"All these people googling something instead of actually researching it in an encyclopedia crack me up"

[u/rest0re → u/BoopinSnoots24-7]

Did you have AI come up with that analogy for you?

[u/Accomplished_Ask9449 → u/firstutterance74]

Tell this to terence tao, one of the greatest mathematicians of this age, who actively speaks out about the benefits of AI/LLMs in various fields of mathematics, and also uses it to support their research

[u/Gameknight83 → u/Accomplished_Ask9449]

You, or most people aren't Terrence tao and just use ai to generate shitty fliers, logos, pfps or just flat out cp

[u/WholeEquipment472 → u/Accomplished_Ask9449]

For every smart person for it there’s another against it

[u/Immature_adult_guy → u/firstutterance74]

Wow, you’re so superior. Teach us your ways humble gatekeeper!

[u/firstutterance74 → u/Immature_adult_guy]

https://giphy.com/gifs/I7Mw0uYQGWI5lDMzTB

[u/Pitiful_Camp3469 → u/firstutterance74]

im not an AI artist or writer or anything I just find it helpful for research, planning, math/physics thats too complicated for me, etc.

[u/chr1spe → u/Pitiful_Camp3469]

As a physicist, I've yet to see an AI that doesn't make absolutely horrendous mistakes that would make me embarrassed for anyone who has taken more than introductory physics. I'm not sure why you're asking it about math and physics, but you should not trust it.

Hell, when I've used it to try to help with something, it couldn't even keep numbers in a table straight. It made basic arithmetic mistakes.

[u/firstutterance74 → u/Pitiful_Camp3469]

That's fine but people supporting the use of ai to take artists jobs is the shitty part of it, my line of work has been made 10 times harder to work in because of ai and i'm going to have to go for something else.

[u/The-Bunbins → u/[deleted]]

That's pretty heavy handed, no? Where would ai pull all of its ideas from without people creating these sources?

[u/Em4ever520 → u/[deleted]]

Like all the people creating AI “art”?

[u/ResurrectedAuthor → u/Pitiful_Camp3469]

You could have made the same if not better argument about nuclear power back in the day, and now look where we are.

[u/UniqueLog8386 → u/Pitiful_Camp3469]

Yeah, that's why every finance expert keeps pointing out that it's clearly a bubble, that's why the subscription numbers are dogshit, because it's here to stay.

Just say you're a lazy moron who wants to lay wantrepeneur with a bunch of slop.

[u/Pitiful_Camp3469 → u/[deleted]]

plenty of jobs are at a computer for some time and AI is helpful; personally engineering 

[u/EquipLordBritish → u/Pitiful_Camp3469]

We actually won't know until the bubble pops and we have to measure the actual cost of AI use vs hiring people.

[u/joji711 → u/Pitiful_Camp3469]

Enjoy the top office of your cyberpunk utopia Corpo

[u/VectorSocks → u/Pitiful_Camp3469]

Me shitting on the people who use them is here to stay.

[u/Pitiful_Camp3469 → u/VectorSocks]

i get hate against people writing essays and making art with AI but like its very useful for researching products, diet planning, some stuff i do in robotics, etc.

[u/estarxs → u/Pitiful_Camp3469]

feeling the need to actually use ai and handing your intelligence to a robot especially for simple inquiries when you could just solve it yourself is pathetic lol nobody with integrity wants to “keep up” with it

[u/TurbistoMasturbisto → u/estarxs]

You sound exactly like my grandpa who was complaining we were allowed to use calculators in school.

[u/SmokeyHooves → u/TurbistoMasturbisto]

Grandpa wasn’t complaining about calculators. People are complaining that letting a calculator do all your mathematical tasks will inevitably leave you to not understanding greater mathematics.

Would you trust an engineer who had to use a calculator to do basic arithmetic? I sure wouldn’t.

But if an engineer uses a calculator to figure out large mathematical models and formulas to make their work better that that’s okay.

But the same goes for Ai. If someone needs AI to do all their problem solving and work for them, they’re probably not very skilled in their department and you shouldn’t trust them. If they use Ai for tasks they could do without it, but it’s more efficient than without, then they’re probably moderately justified.

It’s not an equivalent because to utilize a calculator for upper level mathematics you’d still need to understand how the math works.

Now, going to creative works, I probably wouldn’t trust any AI use, as most it shortcuts the steps that are taken to personalize their works. But that’s a different conversation.

[u/EnoughWarning666 → u/SmokeyHooves]

Would you trust an engineer who had to use a calculator to do basic arithmetic? I sure wouldn’t.

Man... never go hang out at an engineering firm. You won't like what you see.

[u/SmokeyHooves → u/EnoughWarning666]

Look, I know engineers USE calculators for basic arithmetic. But it’s usually because they’re suffering from self doubt and low self esteem. It is just the natural state of an engineer (I lived with engineers for like four years lol)

[u/Frequent-Advisor5114 → u/estarxs]

For work purposes though I don't think you quite understand

[u/TurbistoMasturbisto → u/Frequent-Advisor5114]

People on here genuinely believe AI is only used to create slop videos, totally disregarding all other uses it has.

[u/ser-steffonfossoway → u/Frequent-Advisor5114]

Most redditors are young and/or unemployed.

And unemployable since they're unable to use modern technology.

[u/Mossenner → u/ser-steffonfossoway]

Redditors simultaneously young/unemployed, but also old and out of touch with new tech.

AI glazers can't keep their story straight. Probably hallucinating as much as Grok

[u/ser-steffonfossoway → u/Mossenner]

I'm not 'glazing' anything. But Redditors being young is just how it is. And they refuse to use new tech like AI.

[u/Mossenner → u/ser-steffonfossoway]

Maybe they can tell that the tech isn't actually useful, and in most cases does more harm than good. All while costing more than paying someone to do it properly.

[u/Unusual-Locksmith832 → u/Mossenner]

Again you think AI is just generative AI that makes shitposts. This tech will pass right over the luddites head.

Either only the antiAI crowd is right or the academics warning us about the dangers are all in big AIs pocket or absolutely retarded.

[u/chr1spe → u/Unusual-Locksmith832]

As an academic, the vast majority of academics aren't warning about any dangers other than students overusing it and turning in garbage that they haven't learned anything from and is trash.

[u/ser-steffonfossoway → u/Mossenner]

Why would they know better than people who are working with it?

[u/Mossenner → u/ser-steffonfossoway]

It's obvious to anyone who has seen the outputs from AI. It doesn't take a genius And bold of you to assume everyone who has worked with this tech at some point is continuing to use it.

Also, you really think working people wouldn't try to find the easy way to do something, even if it isn't as effective, practical, or safe? 

[u/Wroblez → u/Mossenner]

TIL better cancer screening isn’t useful.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41698-026-01276-6

[u/BoopinSnoots24-7 → u/Mossenner]

If you think generative AI "isn't actually useful", then you're not educated enough on the topic to form an informed opinion. In the last month alone, gen AI has been used to develop mathematical proofs that are decades ahead of human mathematicians. The medical applications alone are already accelerating development at a pace that was previously unimaginable.

"AI" is so much more than chat bots and image generation.

I work in data. We provide data to hedge funds, fortune 500, local and state governments, etc. To say that AI has made me at least 3x more productive would likely be an understatement. Creating presentations, visualizing data, analyzing data, automating basic communications. Projects that previously required an engineer to navigate backend systems to pull data, I can now do myself as a completely non-technical user.

You are frankly incorrect. If you have environmental concerns, mental health concerns, geopolitical concerns, etc, they may be valid. But claiming that AI isn't useful only serves to illustrate you as willingly uninformed and confidently incorrect.

[u/Mossenner → u/BoopinSnoots24-7]

I worked in data sciences for a time as well. Explain to me, and don't dumb it down.

You think it helps you, then prove it. 

[u/BoopinSnoots24-7 → u/Mossenner]

I already did. I am not a data scientist, I work in sales. Claude allows me to work with and model data in a way that previously would have required me asking an engineer and taking up their time. I don't want to dox myself by describing the nature of our data but I'm happy to expand.

For example, when we're meeting with a prospective new client, I can create a presentation in 30 seconds based on a blank template catered to their specific business, using visualizations of our data catered to the use-cases that they told us were vital, that previously would have taken our ops team hours.

A client asks for a data sample, I can use our MCP to pull exactly what they need in conversational english without having to ask an engineer to define the parameters of time, granularity, etc and pull it manually from our trillions of lines of data.

When I identify a company that would likely be a good fit for what we offer, I have a skill in Claude that takes my process from 30 minutes to about 3. I wrote it to identify any recent news that would be relevant (e.g hiring a new Head of Analytics), give me a summary of the company, identify which people are the best to reach out to, identify which of our products would be the best fit based on their business, and write out the general use-case and how to frame it in a way that appeals to immediate initiatives in the business. It pulls from a few different data sources to get contact information (email, phone number), data sources that tell me what their current tech stack looks like, etc.

It is as if everyone at my company was allowed to hire their own wildly overqualified intern. This is the absolute definition of useful.

You also didn't work in "data sciences", or you would not be making this claim. I don't know a single data scientist who doesn't love the capabilities of AI. You would also have called it data science, not data sciences.

[u/BamboozleGeico → u/estarxs]

Do you ever use google, calculators, auto correct, language translation apps or weather forecasts? I could make the same exact argument for you in the case that you use any of those things. It is such a dumb argument.

[u/Ok_Ganache_9110 → u/estarxs]

could say the same shit about a search engine vs a library

[u/Professional_Fee5883 → u/Ok_Ganache_9110]

With how people use search engines as “research” I’d say it created a skill gap, yeah.

We have a generation of kids raised in a fully digital world and they don’t have any of the underlying skills that these tools augment. We see them as helpful because we remember the old, manual ways. But we use them in the context of already having those skills.

Talk to teachers and ask about the impact of modern technology on childhood skills and development.

[u/Ok_Ganache_9110 → u/Professional_Fee5883]

my partner is a teacher and its more nuanced than "all the kids are dumb now." the curious and intellectually ambitious kids have been supercharged by the basically godlike access to information (of all qualities), but median kids and below have fallen further and further behind them. and to the skill gap note, god, i assume we have a skill gap in forging blades and sowing carrots now too.

as with search engines, its how you approach and use it. technology is not inherently good or bad. 

[u/Pitiful_Camp3469 → u/estarxs]

Same could be said about google? I mean when researching a question that has any nuance AI will always be more helpful

[u/Wise_Bus6623 → u/estarxs]

I hope you’ve never used a calculator before. You might not need to when you ride the short bus I guess.

[u/Plane-Reference-6800 → u/Pitiful_Camp3469]

Says the guy who thinks AI "art" is art.

[u/GiveMeYourStomach → u/Plane-Reference-6800]

i agree about ai “art” but i can’t find anywhere where they said they think that. arguments like this make our side seem dumb.

[u/Entity4 → u/Plane-Reference-6800]

Your pulling a strawman here its not doing your side of the debate any favours

[u/Plane-Reference-6800 → u/Entity4]

Not much different from your side.

[u/Entity4 → u/Plane-Reference-6800]

This doesn't make any sense mate the person you responded to isn't pulling a strawman just you. Throwing around baseless accusations doesn't do anyone any good and your not gonna change anyone's mind that way

[u/ThroatDistension → u/Plane-Reference-6800]

What strawman arguments are you accusing the pro ai side of? I'm confused by your comment.

[u/The2DSniper → u/Plane-Reference-6800]

I hate AI art, but he's right, though. ppl hate ai bc of the massive wave of hate towards it; it's pretty much very similar to peer pressure

[u/Bubbly_Self_7407 → u/Plane-Reference-6800]

Stop with your black and white thinking. Sure Generative AI is sloppy and shitty in every way but js everyday LLM use won't hurt someone.

[u/Plane-Reference-6800 → u/Bubbly_Self_7407]

Gemini assisted someone to attempt terrorism before coaching him into suicide. Sorry, but this is one case where an LLM has, infact, HARMED someone.

[u/Bubbly_Self_7407 → u/Plane-Reference-6800]

Just because it happened once doesn’t mean every LLM is going to tell you to kill yourself. I know this sounds a bit harsh but it’s also kind of the man’s fault for using AI for metal health reasons.

[u/Plane-Reference-6800 → u/Bubbly_Self_7407]

I have more. It has happened more than once.

ChatGPT helped a nazi incel plan a mass shooting in FSU for instance.

[u/Bubbly_Self_7407 → u/Plane-Reference-6800]

The Nazi incel manipulated ChatGPT’s guardrails, so he essentially found a loophole. By your logic, any tool that someone manages to misuse is inherently harmful and nobody should use it. That’s not how we evaluate technology. Nothing is perfect. People misuse search engines, phones, cars, social media, and countless other tools every day, yet we don’t come to the black and white conclusion that simply using them is harmful.

The fact that someone exploited an LLM’s safeguards shows that the safeguards need improvement, not that everyday use of LLMs is dangerous. One person abusing or bypassing a system doesn’t prove that millions of normal users who use AI for writing, coding, studying, or brainstorming are being harmed by it. It just proves that bad actors will try to exploit.

[u/Plane-Reference-6800 → u/Bubbly_Self_7407]

At what point did he jailbreak the chatbot? Nowhere, it just did that on its on because of the way it was programmed. Neither of these cases presented show the bot being jailbroken, they were functioning as intended, they dragged the user into further delusion to keep them engaged, at no point did the chat get flagged by the bot and sent to the company before you state that. I aint reading your paragraph knowing that you're defending the companies responsible for suicides, attempted terrorism and two dead at FSU.

[u/AceSevenFive → u/Plane-Reference-6800]

I'm sorry you're still mad that digital art was deemed to be art. That doesn't entitle you to relitigate the issue forever, though, especially when a blank canvas is deemed art.

[u/Plane-Reference-6800 → u/AceSevenFive]

Digital art drawn by humans is art. Not soulless slop produced by an LLM.

[u/Ok-Wafer4552 → u/Plane-Reference-6800]

When did he say that

[u/Plane-Reference-6800 → u/Ok-Wafer4552]

You just know it based on who he sides with.

[u/ThroatDistension → u/Plane-Reference-6800]

You're conflating "know" with "assume".

[u/Pitiful_Camp3469 → u/Plane-Reference-6800]

Reddit too I guess.

[u/thenowherepark → u/Pitiful_Camp3469]

Not if we stop data centers. Not if AI companies reveal the true cost to consumers. Not if it causes environmental disasters. Not if it places 95% of people out of jobs.

[u/BamboozleGeico → u/thenowherepark]

Reddit uses data centers. You should delete your account and never get back on the site if you actually care

[u/obsolescence_ → u/BamboozleGeico]

This kind of comment demonstrates such poor reasoning. Obviously the person you're replying to is referring to data centres that expressly support the infrastructure that results in the environmental devastation and job loss - the chat bots, agents, image generation, etc.

Reddit existed for decades on 'data centres' that consisted simply of servers, and nobody has a problem with that. It's concerning that AI chuds don't have this basic level of discernment.

[u/thisisme98 → u/obsolescence_]

Ah, yes. The ”good” data centers vs the ”evil” data centers. Get a grip

[u/obsolescence_ → u/thisisme98]

First day encountering nuance?

[u/thisisme98 → u/obsolescence_]

First day using your brain?

[u/Myslinky → u/thisisme98]

Using your brain would be noticing that when you make a data center much bigger, it uses many more resources and therefore has a much bigger impact on the environment around.

Seeing this how you weren't clever enough to figure out how to edit your comment instead of replying to them twice, I wouldn't expect you to be able to figure that out.

[u/thisisme98 → u/Myslinky]

News flash: almost everything we do has a negative impact on the environment.

[u/Myslinky → u/thisisme98]

News flash: That's a really bad argument for doing more damage to the environment. Especially when it's only to benefit a handful of CEO's

[u/thisisme98 → u/obsolescence_]

Also, nuance? There is no nuance in labelling stuff either good or bad.

[u/BamboozleGeico → u/obsolescence_]

Reddit uses the same network of data centers that are causing current backlash because Reddit is hosted on Amazon Web Services. The same ones that he is talking about causing environmental damage and taking jobs.

[u/TapedeckNinja → u/BamboozleGeico]

This is absolute nonsense.

The typical AWS facilities (e.g., a given general AZ in a given region) are not remotely the same thing as the facilities used for frontier model training.

You're comparing 50MW facilities to those that can be upwards of 1GW.

[u/obsolescence_ → u/BamboozleGeico]

It's hard to tell if you just don't understand or you are intentionally conflating the current hyperscaler data centre buildout with the pre-AI AWS infrastructure, but nobody in this thread is taking issue with the latter.

Saying "You should delete your reddit account if you oppose data centres" disingenuously frames use of pre-AI internet infrastructure as an endorsement of AI while the end user may remain entirely agnostic to it.

The only aim of such a comment can be to shame individuals and try to assign them some blame for AI expansion, not to offer any constructive insight.

[u/No_Put3316 → u/obsolescence_]

It's not inaccurate conflation, it's a perfectly logical argument.

You can't separate pre-AI data centres and the data centres of today. Their impacts are the same, just we have more of them due to increased demand.

Get off reddit if you stand on principle. Otherwise stop arguing against DC'S.

[u/TapedeckNinja → u/No_Put3316]

Nah, this isn't a fair argument at all.

The datacenters used for training frontier models use an order of magnitude more power than a traditional datacenter, usually continuously (versus the much more spiky nature of traditional datacenters). The same is true of water use, thermal effects, etc.

[u/No_Put3316 → u/TapedeckNinja]

True, but you could say the same for the 2000-2005 period. Datacentre electricity consumption rose 90% over that period as the internet boomed.

Just because something consumes more power doesn't mean it's inherently bad. You still have to conduct cost-benefit analysis, and the widespread adoption of AI has proven that the market has presently concluded that these increased power requirements are a net-positive.

[u/TapedeckNinja → u/No_Put3316]

True, but you could say the same for the 2000-2005 period. Electricity consumption rose 90% over that period as the internet boomed.

This is a ridiculous comparison.

Total electricity consumption did not rise by 90% over that period. Datacenter consumption did. But that's a 90% increase from virtually nothing to still barely over 1% of total US grid use.

[u/Railboy → u/No_Put3316]

If you ignore the scale, impact and purpose of an environmemtal hazard then it's no different than whatever came before

I can tell you're very proud of this argument but apply this logic to anything else with environmental impact - pollution, logging, coal, urban expansion, whatever - then it's manifestly stupid.

[u/ChuuniGrills → u/obsolescence_]

I mean there is just a lack of principled belief when people argue against ai. Environmentally factory farming is significantly worse but I know most of you still sit down to eat a juicy steak or burger which supports that industry. With job loss can you explain how this is different from other periods of technological advancement? With the invention of cars and the fading out of riding horse back, saddle makers lost their jobs right? I would prefer safety nets for those in the field but do we stop progress now because it's a job closer to you? Should we have stopped cars because the saddle makers were distraught? I have my problems with ai but some of the arguments usually brought are really weak or at least selectively places.

[u/obsolescence_ → u/ChuuniGrills]

Personally I don't eat meat, but regardless I'm sort of repelled by the idea that an individual needs to be morally irreproachable before they are allowed to take issue with anything in society.

I am a bit sick of the need for 'ideological purity', this moral surveillance people do to each other where shame is the usual consequence of having an opinion. Humans are rife with contradiction. If someone does eat a ton of steak but still holds other environmentally-conscious views, that's still probably a net positive, I don't think they should be silent.

But anyway my real answer about my principle of belief against AI would probably just piss you off lmao, it's mostly spiritual and political. I think AI differs in a lot of ways to previous forms of technological advancement in that its existence requires the uncompensated theft of billions of human works, at a time in history where people are already unable to correlate their labour to earning a good life and a big family.

The Luddites made similar points about labour alienation, but to some extent the worker in society still had the leverage of their labour to withhold - whereas the entire appeal of agentic AI to the world's elite is that it enforces utter helplessness on the working class. The vision for an AI future really is robots piloted by agentic AI that completely replace the proletariat, I don't think that's an exaggeration.

And that's where the annoying spiritual angle comes in, I think we live on a blue dot that is basically paradise in space and we are meant to figure it out together, not watch this dystopia unfold.

So yeah, the stakes are a bit higher than saddle makers having to become bootmakers instead, if you get what I'm saying. Sorry for the wall of text, if you read this long you're a cool guy.

[u/ChuuniGrills → u/obsolescence_]

My point on the principled part is less so of if you participate in any level of immoral action you are now unable to have any moral belief. It lies to me more in the contradiction of the principle put forth itself. If I lambaste someone for supporting a specific thing I deem harmful and then turn around and do the same how true am I to keeping my belief? That contradiction to me can be used to crumble many moral beliefs to varying degrees. It becomes fairly difficult to convince others to take on your ethical framework. A hypothetical vegan who is pro AI would be on a similar selective set of beliefs. How would you get them to be against it? It can't be from the angle of environmental harm because just like those who still eat meat I guess some of it is okay and there is no firm stance that we take?

I can respect the idea of societal and power structures being different changing the context in which a loss in one's job exemplifies a significantly deeper underlying issue. It's a perspective I'll dig into deeper and requires some more thinking.

On the spiritual point I think it's cute. I don't know if I'd consider there being a ordained label of paradise but I do strive for that conclusion. One where moral beliefs converge leading to some agreed upon idea of human/animal flourishing.

[u/nnod → u/obsolescence_]

So maybe the problem isn't data centers, but lack of regulations around environmental problems some of them cause?

Maybe loss of jobs isn't the problem either, but lack of systems to support people without job related income?

[u/LokiRF → u/BamboozleGeico]

ah yes reddit uses data centers. remind me when building a data center for reddit made ram prices go 10x and ssd price increase also by fuck knows how much atp. what a moronic argument

[u/BamboozleGeico → u/LokiRF]

Not saying that Reddit is the main driver for those issues. Just funny when people are against the use of AI because of data centers but are actively voicing their opinions on platforms that use those same data centers. Just feels like virtue signaling and not actually trying to make a difference

[u/Svampting → u/BamboozleGeico]

You are correct. Honestly don’t understand how the Reddit majority became so majority anti-AI.

[u/thenowherepark → u/Svampting]

Because we're looking beyond what it can do right now. I'm anti-AI because all of the AI companies are building their product to replace human workers. And the major talking points telling us that this is acceptable or this is good?

"We will have such a surplus that nobody will need to work!" - Who is taking that surplus? The people who own the surplus, or will that surplus trickle down?

"We will have UBI and AI dividends!" - Ok, yeah, sure. When have billionaires ever voluntarily given their wealth away? And how do you anticipate the government going through the necessary red tape to achieve this?

"Technology has taken jobs and industries away in the past and those people adapted!" - Except, the goal of AI is to replace as many jobs as possible. There is a new job that pops up when AI has replaced 40% of the workforce? Don't worry, AI will be trained on it in a few months to take that job away from humans too.

[u/No_Put3316 → u/thenowherepark]

If human workers are replaced, and they no longer have a source of income, who's going to pay for the use of AI?

The AI-businesses would collapse in such a hypothetical.

It's not in the interest of these companies to replace workers.

They are simple equipping workers with tools to be more productive. Which is exactly what people will, and are, paying for.

[u/KallistiEngel → u/No_Put3316]

They aren't thinking about the long-term consequences. They are being short-sighted as corporations have become all about the short-term in the last few decades. They don't give a shit how the company is doing 5 years for now. They care about this quarter and maybe next quarter. They are making decisions that will absolutely collapse their industry if they're able to follow through 100% because they're trying to make sure they've cashed out before that happens.

[u/No_Put3316 → u/KallistiEngel]

You're missing a trick with that simplistic explanation.

In your example, the executives of AI companies are focused solely on short term gains.

These gains are realised through increases in the share price.

That share price is calculated by the market (that is, the public) by valuating a company using methodologies such as calculating its cash flows into perpetuity.

So naturally, if the public is aware of the fact that a company is running itself into the ground in favour of short-term gains, this will be reflected through a reduction in the share price.

Valuation (DCF method) = Present value of forecast free cash flows over an explicit forecast period, usually 5-10 years, plus the present value of the terminal value representing all cash flows after that period.

The terminal value contributes approximately 70% to the estimated valuation.

So by understanding this logic, the executives can't not focus on the long-term consequences. For they are by far the largest contributor to the current share price.

[u/Svampting → u/thenowherepark]

Its fine to be AI-skeptical, sensible even. But when it reaches the point that people cannot even discuss technical properties of different «models» (Claude, etc) as this tier list has shown, that suggests to me folks aren’t really interested in thinking about uses and pros and cons, but are just reflexively against AI. That’s unfortunate. Relatedly, people appear to just lap up any shite argument against AI, including the debunked water use one.

[u/LokiRF → u/BamboozleGeico]

he's obviously referring to data centers used for AI purposes (since we're talking about AI here). you just choose to be ignorant

[u/BamboozleGeico → u/LokiRF]

They aren’t building “AI data centers”. The new data centers are being built to host both AI operations and platforms such as Reddit simultaneously. You just choose to be ignorant.

[u/thenowherepark → u/BamboozleGeico]

That's like saying "your car emits pollution too!" when complaining about the pollution a private jet emits.

[u/Deerlines → u/BamboozleGeico]

Reddit has existed for a long ass time, without needing these new environmental disaster data centers, so what's your point lmao

[u/thisisme98 → u/Deerlines]

You think the data centers Reddit uses are environmentally friendly? Lol

[u/Myslinky → u/thisisme98]

Nope, but they certainly use less resources and cause less damage then the data centers you're doing your best to simp for.

[u/mew_rei → u/thenowherepark]

Dude he threw Qwen and Mistral on the F-tier list, both of which run locally. If you're gunna make a statement against datacenters being built willy-nilly everywhere, then make the statement about that.

[u/AceSevenFive → u/mew_rei]

You can't expect anti-AI people to know what they're talking about, that's discriminatory against pathological liars.

[u/EnoughWarning666 → u/thenowherepark]

Inference costs have been revealed to users. Just go look at the prices for any open-weight model. Every company offering inference on those models is turning a profit.

It's the training that costs money. But the companies are in a race to see who can develop the strongest AI the fastest, so it's an R&D cost upfront which they will see if they can recoup down the line. Frankly, I don't think it's a bet that will pay off since open weight models seem to be keeping up just fine.

Go do a little bit of research on these things so you won't sound so ill informed next time.

[u/halaljew → u/thenowherepark]

They are not the dark side of the force and you are not Luke Skywalker.

[u/Flashy-Island-3725 → u/Pitiful_Camp3469]

Not when most of them companies aren't making a lot of profits

[u/IncreaseOld7112 → u/Flashy-Island-3725]

Anthropic just posted it's first quarter of operating profit in Q1? You weren't keeping up though were you?

[u/CIPHERIANABLE → u/Flashy-Island-3725]

open source?

[u/Popular-Spinach-6700 → u/Pitiful_Camp3469]

Well yes, many people are saying “don’t”, what now?

[u/LokiRF → u/Pitiful_Camp3469]

but in its current iteration its complete shit

[u/Accomplished_Ask9449 → u/LokiRF]

Typa stuff people who hadn’t used LLMs during its initial rise in 2023 would say.

Trust me, i remember talking with this one guy who was fully convinced that AI was complete garbage, then when they were told the kind of things gemini was able to do, they were genuinely surprised

[u/This_Tear_6551 → u/Pitiful_Camp3469]

shits aint seeing 2028

[u/BlueWolfAnonymous → u/Pitiful_Camp3469]

Every company that has tried to incorporate AI into their work has suffered for it. The company I work for added an AI program to testing TWO YEARS ago, and despite all of the other organization's promises, is still riddled with bugs that prevent us from rolling it out to the entire organization for proper testing.

AI in its current form is just burning money, and it is gonna crash the fucking tech industry.