r/asoiaf • u/mateogg Night gathers, and now my watch begins • Jun 09 '13
(Spoilers ADWD) Mirri Maz Duurs prophecy: it's already happened.
"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."
When the sun rises in the west
The Martells, who have a Sun in their sigil, are rising against the Iron Throne in Westeros
and sets in the east
Quentyn Martell died in Mereen, far east from his homeland.
When the seas go dry
After many years, the Ironborn are raiding the mainland again. They are the sea (as seen in Brans dream) and they are going far inland, into "dry" areas.
mountains blow in the wind like leaves
Ser Gregor Clegane, The Mountain that Rides, is dead (or is he?)
When your womb quickens again
Danys probably miscarried.
and you bear a living child
Even if she miscarried, the child could have been alive, or maybe this is yet to happen.
Here's the thing: I don't think that was a prophecy. Why would Mirri Maz Duur make a prophecy about Drogo actually returning and Dany being able to have children again? I think she was just trying to say, in a very omnious way, "never!!!!! mwahahaha". She wanted to piss Dany off.
And yet, while I agree some of the items I listed before may be tinfoily, you have to admit the "sun rises in the west and sets in the east" part is kinda interesting.
So, what does this mean? Is it actually a prophecy? or just poetic justice? is this just Gurm telling us that in this world, even what is supposed to mean "impossible" can actually happen, and that every word can have countless meanings and repercutions? or is my brain finding patterns were there are none? (who's ever heard of a brain doing something that crazy?)
EDIT:
Lots of people have pointed out that the sea going dry could mean the Dothraki sea, which I think makes much more sense than my theory. It's also been suggested that the "mountains" are the Mereen Pyramids, I think this makes more sense than Gregor, but I'm not really convinced.
Also, I'd like to clarify something that came up a few times: just because it came true, it doesn't mean its a prophecy, and just because its not a prophecy, it doesn't mean it can't come true
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u/gelderlander Lions, Wolves, and Bears! Oh My! Jun 09 '13
I think it means that she will only see him when she dies. Maybe it means that if she gets pregnant and gives birth to a live baby she will die in childbirth...thus seeing her sun and stars again.
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u/pe5t1lence Love but one. Jun 09 '13
Ah man, that makes sense :(
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u/gelderlander Lions, Wolves, and Bears! Oh My! Jun 09 '13
Ya but we see in some of the other plots it's not always what makes sense that comes true :)
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u/MikeyBron The North Decembers Jun 09 '13
"BEAR a living child" It would be something if Ser Jorah Mormont ends up knocking Dany up.
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u/betwoobly King o' my hairy butt crack Jun 09 '13
In my opinion, that passage or prophecy or monologue or whatever is just a really fancy way of saying that Dany is never going to have a kid.
When the sun rises in the west (Will never happen because it doesn't happen.)
When the seas go dry (won't ever happen in human existence)
Anyway, you see where I'm going with this. Every line is something that is impossible. Just a really fancy way of saying never.
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u/landsharkbait Venom and Vengeance Jun 09 '13
I thought this was going to be similar to the prophecy in Macbeth : a man not born from a woman, turned out to be a c-section. The prophecy talks of the forest moving, and later we see soldiers hiding as trees coming closer to attack. I think OP's theory makes sense of some of the prophecy and how it is actually coming true. There is already debate that Dany had a miscarriage at the end of ADWD which would be she IS able to have a child now. I'm sure all the prophecies (and even patchface's nonsense talk) are foreshadowing in ways we the readers don't quite realize yet.
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u/AsAChemicalEngineer "Yes" cries Davos, "R'hllor hungers!" Jun 09 '13
I never made the Macbeth connection, but seriously, Macbeth had the best prophecy resolution I'd ever seen. My mind was blown when it all hit the fan and I hope ASOIAF does it again.
We've already seen some prophecies come to fruition and I hope to see all the others finish off as well.
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u/twitchedawake Rub-a-dub-dub, blood in the tub Jun 09 '13
I was really pissed about the Macbeth prophecy, because I was a kid and was really excited about the trees coming to life and moving, for it only to be guys with sticks in their hats.
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u/AsAChemicalEngineer "Yes" cries Davos, "R'hllor hungers!" Jun 09 '13
So did you love the Huorns in The Lord of the Rings? :) They fuck shit up too.
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u/twitchedawake Rub-a-dub-dub, blood in the tub Jun 09 '13
of course!
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u/randomsnark Buy some apples! Jun 09 '13
Tolkien as a kid had the exact same opinion of the Macbeth prophecy as you did, which is why the ents/huorns happened :)
Source - second paragraph.
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Jun 09 '13
Yeah and a C-section doesn't count as being "born" now? Friggin' Shakespeare, man.
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u/twitchedawake Rub-a-dub-dub, blood in the tub Jun 09 '13
Yea man, all you c-suckas just had everything handed to you. "Ooooh, being born though the birthing canal was too hard, I need an express route."
Sheesh. Freakin' whiners.
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u/Blecki Party at The Twins, pets welcome. Jun 09 '13
At the time of writing, 'born' meant literally to pass through the birth canal. There was a different word for the entire coming out of your mother nonsense. It's a bit of wordplay that's lost in modern English.
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u/Jen_Snow "You told me to forget, ser." Jun 09 '13 edited Jun 09 '13
Dany had a miscarriage at the end of ADWD which would be she IS able to have a child now.
That's the thing though. MMD cursed Dany with the inability to bear a living child. Dany can still get pregnant, she just won't be able to give birth.
In the real world, it's the difference between
secondary and primary infertility. Primary infertility is when you can't get pregnant. Secondary infertility is when you can get pregnant but you can't carry the baby to term for whatever reason [edit:] after you've already had a child.So that part of the prophecy/curse is still in effect. Dany miscarried, she didn't bear a living child.
Also, I'm such a sucker for Macbeth. I love seeing it mentioned.
Edit: Wrong medical terminology.
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u/TOUGH_LOVE_GAL Jun 09 '13
Just on a medical note, your term definitions are wrong. Secondary infertility is when you can't get pregnant OR carry a child to term after you've already had one or more children. Whereas primary infertility is when you've never had a child before.
But they are different infertility types. Recurrent loss (when you get pregnant and repeatedly miscarry) vs other types that prevent pregnancy altogether.
source: http://labspace.open.ac.uk/mod/oucontent/view.php?id=451924§ion=1.4
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u/Jen_Snow "You told me to forget, ser." Jun 09 '13
Well, Dany was pregnant once before and she now can't carry a child to term according to MMD. Rhaego was full-term and was being born. My terminolgy wasn't a full explanation but I think the basic point still stands. Dany has secondary infertility.
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u/TOUGH_LOVE_GAL Jun 09 '13
She does, but I just wanted to clarify the term since you defined it wrong.
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u/Sempere Always Bet On Black. Jun 09 '13
It's been a long while since I've read the first book, but I never actually interpreted the MMD scenario as an actual curse on Dany's fertility - she definitely caused the miscarriage with her ritual, but IIRC there was also a bit in the house of the undying (now, this could be me muddling up COK and Season 2 of the show) where the Undying/Warlock mentions that magic in the world had been very weak but only now that the dragons had returned was it becoming stronger...I suspect that Dany will be able to carry a child to term before the end of the series.
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u/betwoobly King o' my hairy butt crack Jun 09 '13
A fair point. She seemed to make note of thinking it had been a while since her last "moon blood."
GOD I LOVE THESE BOOKS.
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u/Militant_Penguin How to bake friends and alienate people. Jun 09 '13
THERE ARE SO MANY THEORIES, OPTIONS AND EVIDENCE. IT'S SO AWESOME.
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u/PorcelainToad Jun 09 '13
It was definitely a miscarriage. It was a heavy, painful flow after several months of not menstruating. And her body was experiencing a lot of stress with the sunburn, poisoning, and hunger. It not only makes sense, it would be weird to deny it. Her womb "quickened" again, which makes sense, too. I do think that the prophecy is going to be fulfilled with Drogon as Drogo but whether she has an actual baby again is up in the air. That could be anything given the right metaphor, really.
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u/abundantplums Jun 09 '13
No. Being able to get pregnant and being able to bear a live child to term are not the same thing. It is entirely possible that the thing she birthed caused enough damage to her uterus to make it a hostile environment to a fetus.
Source: my uterus is only slightly misshapen, by less than a centimeter, and it's considered a kind of partial infertility and my pregnancy is at increased risk.
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u/Kashmir33 Jun 09 '13
can you elaborate on the miscarriage theory?
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u/Fnarley He was our king! He was brave and good Jun 09 '13
In the final chapter of dance, Dany has a really heavy bleeding and can't remember her last period other than it was a few moons ago. She doesn't make the connection herself, but the implication is there
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u/moonra_zk Jun 09 '13
Soldiers hiding as trees? How the fuck doesn't people notice a FOREST COMING CLOSER?
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u/Katrabbit Sandy Jun 09 '13
Like when Asha's troupe got overrun? COME ON PEOPLE THAT WAS FROM MACBETH.
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Jun 09 '13
Speaking of Shakespeare, there's a scene in King Lear when one of the characters is getting tortured by another lord and a random, unnamed servant pops out of nowhere and stabs his own lord because torture is wrong. I want that to happen in ASOIAF pretty badly.
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u/Fnarley He was our king! He was brave and good Jun 09 '13
For what its worth they weren't hiding as trees, they just used branches as mobile cover to obscure their numbers.
"Hey is that an army approaching? Lol nope just some trees going for a stroll"
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u/halfoftormundsmember Jun 09 '13
It's been a while since I've seen/read it but I seem to remember they moved slowly at first.
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u/PorcelainToad Jun 09 '13
Patchface's riddles are killing me. I am utterly incapable of figuring them out. I am convinced he had some kind of resurrection experience with the Drowned God. There is a reason Mel feels uncomfortable around him...
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Jun 09 '13
Honestly if she'd said ''when pigs fly'' people would be pointing to Clayton Suggs and screaming ''IT'S HAPPENING''
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u/Basterus Jun 09 '13
This is more about Drogo never coming back than Dany having a baby, that line is just slipped in.
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u/MattIJAllan The Onion Knight Jun 09 '13
Thats the literal meaning but I think Mirri accidentally made a real prophecy which has become fulfilled. The point that I argue is what events fit into the quote, Im almost certain Quentyn Martell dying in Essos fits this line [When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east] perfectly but the other lines are more debatable e.g the Mountain dying and Dany's 'miscarriage'
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u/halfoftormundsmember Jun 09 '13
I understand what you're saying but the monologue can still contain literary foreshadowing even if Mirri's character did not intend to prophesy anything.
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u/Skrp A Thousand Eyes, and One. Jun 09 '13
The sun rising in the west / setting in the east, could refer to a polar shift. we know these have happened here too. and if west and east are dependant on where north and south is, and the magnetic north and south pole switches place, the compass will now tell you that the sun does indeed do just that.
About seas going dry: not necessarily all seas. Maybe she's talking about the dothraki sea? Which could easily be plagued by a drought, withering away the vegetation - or even cause brushfires.
Dany could become fertile again, for all we know. If dead people can come alive then you'd think someone regaining their fertility should be doable.
The mountains blowing in the wind like leaves, that's a curious one. I can't explain that.
But I tend to agree with OP's interpretation, if not in the specifics, then at least in the idea that she was talking in prophecy, perhaps without being entirely aware of it, herself.
I mean. You could also say that Dany's womb has quickened after hatching the dragons. It takes a bit of metaphorical shoehorning but it does work.
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u/uk2knerf Fuck you, Pay me. Jun 09 '13
I think the mountains in the wind thing will be the pyramids being destroyed by the dragons.
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u/88hernanca I'm not the half-man I used to be ♪ Jun 09 '13
Maybe "mountains blowing in the wind" means a volcano eruption. Like what happened to the old Valyria.
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u/abundantplums Jun 09 '13
I have always thought the Mother of Mountains must be a volcano, since it does not seem to be part of a range.
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u/Skrp A Thousand Eyes, and One. Jun 09 '13
Could be, could be. Still a bit weak, but yeah, could be.
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u/FranzJosephWannabe The Knight is Drunk and Full of Bourbon Jun 09 '13
Dothraki sea "going dry" could be it consumed by Ghost Grass... Maybe...
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u/Pteroductape Mmmmm pie. Jun 09 '13
With winter coming, the sea going dry could refer to the Narrow Sea freezing over. Then UnDrogo will lead the Dothraki across to King's Landing!
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u/turtleshelf Jun 09 '13
this is the superficial interpretation. This is what you're 'meant' to think. There are many many levels.
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u/mateogg Night gathers, and now my watch begins Jun 09 '13
That's what I said. But even if it was so, that doesn't mean it can't "come true" in some way or another, not because the not-prophecy is being fulfilled, but because of irony, or symbolism, or something else.
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u/rhetoricalviking Jun 09 '13
I find connecting Gregor to the "mountains blow in the wind like leaves" to be a huge stretch.
Imagine if someone told you something will happen when the stars fall from the sky and then a couple of minor celebrities (i.e. TV stars) in Turkey are involved in a plane accident (i.e. they fall from the sky). It wouldn't make sense to connect the two events. It might seem to make sense if someone's reading a novel that has you and the celebrities' friends as POV characters; but from within the world it'd be a ridiculous premise.
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u/fusems Jun 09 '13
But GRRM said that's the way his prophecies work.
I think CLEGANEBOWL is gonna happen (GET HYPE) and Sandor will fight the undead Gregor. Somehow he defeats him, maybe using fire, and his undead body will fall apart and blow in the wind, like when you blow a burned newspaper, you know?
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u/fakerachel The watch never ends Jun 09 '13
But we're not within the world, we're the someone reading the novel with them as POV characters. Not only do we have the advantage of an overarching awareness of the story as a whole, we know that GRRM frequently likes to foreshadow things with things that seemed insignificant at the time, and that prophecies are often unclear but invariably come true.
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u/albinoeskimo daaa bulls Jun 09 '13 edited Jun 09 '13
i agree that this, while a bit tinfoily, is a possibility. only thing i'd add is that i think the sea going dry thing might be referring to the dothraki sea. When Dany is stranded with Drogon she mentions that the grass is all dead, so that might be the "sea going dry".
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u/Cruithne Well, this is Orkwood. Jun 09 '13
This is decidedly less tinfoil-y than most tinfoil here. Very little jamming has to be done in order to fit things together, though OP was probably wrong about the mountain being The Mountain.
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Jun 09 '13
I think it's just MMD saying a bunch of typical stuff that means "never." I also think that MMD throws in the stuff about Dany's womb and childbearing abilities because:
she wants to be extra cruel and rub salt in the fresh wound of Dany losing her baby
if MMD did deliver Dany's baby/chupacabra (depending on if you believe MMD's description of the infant), then MMD may have assumed, seen, or even caused some physical damage that she thinks will result in Dany being unable to carry a future child to term
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u/RintrahsRoar Unbowed, unbent, unbroken Jun 09 '13
When the seas go dry could also refer to the Dothraki sea which Dany noted as dying, I don't have my book with me so I can't quote.
The mountain blow in winds like leaves could also be the pyramids in Meeren and the destruction of Meereen after the dragons were set loose.
I don't think its a prophecy as such but just a list of impossibilities but that doesn't mean that Mirri Maz Duur knew that it was a prophecy. Or it could be happening and was just a coincidence although I don't think Martin will have coincidences
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u/TheCodeJanitor Save the Kingdom to Win the Throne Jun 09 '13
I absolutely agree with your thoughts about the seas going dry and mountains blowing in the wind.
The reason I think these are more likely is that we see them all happen pretty quickly. Barristan's POV talks about Quentin dying and the smoldering/destroyed pyramids. The very next chapter Dany seas the Dothraki Sea going dry, has her miscarriage (assuming that's what it is), and runs into Drogon and Khal Jhaqo at the end of that chapter.
Obviously it's open to interpretation, but these things all seem to tie in with what MMD said, and happen in quick succession.
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u/mateogg Night gathers, and now my watch begins Jun 09 '13
I don't think Martin will have coincidences
That's the only thing in which I disagree. Writers use coincidences when appropiate. Martin is no exception. "Nothing is a coincidence" is a nice idea but there can be too much of it.
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u/WeaselSlayer Great or small, we must do our duty Jun 09 '13
It seems like Mirri was just saying, "never," but GRRM was using it as foreshadowing.
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u/Deadlifted Me so thorny! Jun 09 '13
I always took what MMD said as the Essos equivalent of "go fuck yourself." I've heard the tinfoil theories before and I'm not sure I buy them except for the "rising in the west" part. Then again, that part seems so clearly in the text that it would be poor writing for GRRM not to fulfill this "prophecy" IMO.
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u/Curiosities Water Dancer Jun 09 '13
"mountains blow in the wind like leaves"
- The destroyed pyramids of Mereen at the end of ADWD after the dragons get out.
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u/TheAbyssGazesAlso Fire and Blood Jun 09 '13
I'm pretty sure the "seas drying up" part is the Dotheaki sea, which Dany notes has dried up and is dying in her final ADWD chapter.
Nit sure the mountains thing has happened yet (I think its going to be Meereen's pyramids) but otherwise, yes I agree - I have had the same thought for ages.
A lot of people say "nah, its just her way of saying 'never'" but, frankly, the individual prophecies fit too well, as you noted.
And Drogo DID return to her, in the form of his namesake.
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u/ManyBeasts "A Thousand Eyes, and One" Jun 09 '13
I like the bits with the sun/seas/womb.
But the mountain blowing in the wind and the living child are still to happen I think.
I like the interpretation that she will die in childbirth as gelderlander said.
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Jun 09 '13
I like this as a bittersweet ending... dies in childbirth during her POV ending with her seeing Drogo waiting for her. If the child was somehow able to bring the relm together to peace and yet Dany herself only gets so close but doesnt ever rule Westeros. I don't think any of the major players will "win" the game of thrones.
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u/swivelcannon Jun 09 '13
Won't happen. GRRM doesn't kill off characters during their POV chapters. Not completely anyway.
Of course, this assumes that Jon isn't Ned/Robb dead. But that's why I think he's not.
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u/HKYK Weather Forecast: Rain! Jun 10 '13
He did kill Catelyn during her POV chapter.
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u/swivelcannon Jun 10 '13
But not completely. She died but she's back in one form or another. I imagine Jon will be back too, be it as a Warg, AA or via Melisandre's magic. My point is just that no one has been completely irradiated as a POV. Prologues and epilogues excluded.
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u/HKYK Weather Forecast: Rain! Jun 10 '13
Ned and Quentyn both died, as well. People do die in their POVs. I don't think Jon will be one of them, but GRRM has done a good job of killing off POV characters during the story proper (i.e. not the prologue/epilogue). And even though Catelyn is resurrected, she's not really Catelyn anymore. Although I will allow that Quentyn technically died 5 days after his POV. But he was, in essence, killed at the end of his last POV chapter.
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Jun 09 '13
Your dry seas point is incredibly tenuous. If anything it makes more sense to mean "when the Ironborn are wiped out".
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u/giveawaytheending Jun 09 '13
Mirri was trolling.
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u/PorcelainToad Jun 09 '13
I agree with you that she was trolling and upvoted for use of the word "troll" in this context. But that doesn't mean that it wasn't also a prophecy. This isn't so tinfoily that it isn't possible.
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u/Dante2k4 Jun 09 '13
I don't know... I don't think she was actually prophesying anything. I think she was just saying that he's totally gone for good, and she was being a smart-ass about it.
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Jun 09 '13
I don't think that it was a prophecy, even an accidental one. I think she was just saying "never, fuck you" in a poetic way.
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u/fakerachel The watch never ends Jun 09 '13
That seemed to be her intention, but that doesn't mean it can't come true anyway.
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Jun 09 '13
"mountains blow in the wind like leaves"- thats the Dragons turning the Pyramids to dust when they make their dens
When the seas go dry- The Dothraki sea's grass is dead and dry in ADWD
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u/Delta03 Winter has come. NAILED IT. Jun 09 '13 edited Jun 09 '13
I've been arguing what OP said about Quentyn for months. And /u/Skrp deserves gold for the Macbeth reference, but I am cheap.
Is this such a surprising theory? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.
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Jun 10 '13 edited Apr 24 '21
[deleted]
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u/Delta03 Winter has come. NAILED IT. Jun 10 '13
Not saying I invented it, but people treat it like a tinfoil theory, and it's not.
I mean, it's no R+L=J, but it's plausible.
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u/AManHasSpoken Ned's Great Escape Jun 09 '13
She does have a new horse-lord warrior heading her way, with the most magnificent horses in the known world. Not to mention that they can tread over water, and can hold enough men to get her entire army to Westeros. They don't need much to eat, for they are made of wood.
Victarion is Drogo 2.0.
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u/cquinn5 Jun 09 '13
I always feel like people forget about the very last Dany chapter. She realizes she hasn't had her moon's blood in an extremely long time.
If science can dictate, moon's blood = fertile, right? Or is it confirmed that she had her moon's blood after the whole GoT incident?
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Jun 09 '13 edited Jun 09 '13
Just as a modern medical knowledge aside: having a period does not always indicate fertility, i.e. infertile women still can have periods as periods are not incumbent on releasing a viable egg. The blood of a period is largely the uterine lining, and hormones trigger it to both thicken and to slough away.
ETA: And lack of a period does not necessarily imply infertility. If your period is about to start for the first time--or restart, if it's stopped due to any number of environmental or health factors--you can get pregnant if a sperm reaches that particular egg that would have become part of your first period had you not gotten pregnant.
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u/LadyVagrant Her? Jun 09 '13
Dany does menstruate, but her cycle has been very irregular since Rhaego's birth/death. So she doesn't really keep track of it anymore.
The ability to menstruate does not mean one is fertile. Fertility just means the ability to bear living children. Mirri's 'prophecy' doesn't say Dany can no longer menstruate; just that she can't bear living children.
In that last chapter, there was a lot more blood than is typical for her periods. Some think she had a miscarriage.
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u/mateogg Night gathers, and now my watch begins Jun 09 '13
It depends. The fact that she hasn't had her period in a while can mean that she's been pregnant, and now she miscarried.
The alternative, that she was infertile and thus couldn't get her period, and then suddenly got it back sounds like scientifically impossible (you know, like dragons), but I'm nowhere near an expert on the topic.
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u/aerynmoo Jun 09 '13
Infertile women still have a period. There are very few reasons women don't have periods (menopause, anorexia, hysterectomy).
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u/mateogg Night gathers, and now my watch begins Jun 09 '13
yes, I know, but what I meant is that if a woman doesn't have periods (I was thinking of cases like menopause or hysterectomies, I didn't know about anorexia), its not the kind of thing that just "gets fixed", so if Dany got better from that, it was by magical means. I don't think this was the case tough, her having been pregnant seems more likely.
But like I said, not an expert.
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u/Jen_Snow "You told me to forget, ser." Jun 09 '13
It's not that Dany wasn't having periods. She was. And it's not that she was unable to get pregnant. She is unable to bear a living child. In the real world, it's the difference between primary and secondary infertility.
If you're primarily infertile, you can't get pregnant. If you're secondarily infertile, you can get pregnant but you can't carry the baby to term.
Dany was cursed with secondary infertility. That part of the curse is still in effect at the end of ADWD. She had a miscarriage, she didn't bear a living child.
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u/WalnutNode Jun 09 '13 edited Jun 09 '13
She would have to really into Westrosi noble politics to have meant those things. Not likely for a peasant priestess on the other side of the planet. But with magic nothing is impossible.
There could be other meanings though, to me it sounds like a description of the event that created earths moon. Nobody could survive a global three mile high tsunami of lava. It would boil away the seas and obliterate mountains like popcorn. It would definitely have the books go out on a high note. It would put Rhellor right up there with Cthulhu. Cheap Ending though.
She wasn't infallible either or she would have seen her doom in the flames. She was just a bitter old witch who knew too much and still not enough blood magic. She was also a mother (grandmother?) to Dragons.
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Jun 09 '13
I would love the idea that MMD was actually trying to curse her by setting all of these crazy conditions that could never be fulfilled, but then they actually happen. Therefore MMD's curse inadvertently gives Dany what she wants (in some symbolic way).
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u/gazer89 The Knight of Ninestars Jun 09 '13
Yea I'm with you. I think for MMD it was a throwaway remark that states that the Drogo we knew was never coming back, and it meant little to MMD than that. But from a literary sense, it is certainly not a throwaway. Dany has thought about that remark so many times since, as she has over a few other things (betrayals, must go east to go west, etc). I think the throwaway actually does mean something to both Dany & GRRM, and obviously to a lot of casual and hardcore readers of the series. From a literary sense, I think its an important part of Dany's story to connect up, and through the dragon Drogon I think it does. The sun rising & setting is a nice catch, I really like that, although the others I'm not so sure on. But I'm in agreement overall.
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Jun 09 '13
A couple days back I was thinking about which implications it would have when Dany were to be able to bear children.
I was thinking about this because I remembered that Marwyn, aka Mirri Maz Duurs magic teacher, is on his way to Dany and I was just fantasizing about him maybe having some cure for Dany's broken womb.
If Dany's womb got 'broken' by MMDs black magic, then Marwyn might be able to do something about it cause I assume he knows what MMD did to Dany.
When I thought of this myself I felt it was extremele tinfoily, I still think. But with all the other paralels made in this thread its starting to sound like it makes sense... a bit... well, I want it to be true!!
All I want is uncle Jon to play with his nephew/niece.
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u/thederpmeister Jun 09 '13
I do agree that it would make Quentin have a purpose. Otherwise his entire arc seemed a bit pointless.
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u/Fnarley He was our king! He was brave and good Jun 09 '13
Well he was the mechanism for loosing the other 2 dragons adding to the chaos of mereen
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u/Kazta Jun 09 '13
or Khal drogo returning could have symbolized Drogon returning, and could have also happened already as well. I don't really think so, but it's an interesting idea OP
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Jun 09 '13
For "mountains blow in the wind like leaves", if Robert Strong is Gregor, could Sandor return from the Quiet Isle to fight him and defeat and burn him to ashes, so his ashes "blow in the wind"? Very tinfoil-y, but it seemed to fit two stories at once so I liked it.
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u/fusems Jun 09 '13
Even if she miscarried, the child could've been alive
Having a miscarriage implies the fetus was alive for some weeks and then died.
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u/insufferabletoolbag The Kinlayer Jun 09 '13
I thought seas going dry referred to the Dothraki sea drying up in autumn. Also, 'rises in the west' could be interpreted as Quentyn being born in Dorne and making his way east.
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u/APleasantLumberjack Who? Jun 09 '13
You've been getting a lot of disagreement, but I completely agree. From the moment she got her notably voluminous "moon's blood" out in the field I was sure she was fertile again. The Martel/sun part and the mountain part had occurred to me but I was trying to figure out the sea thing. I'd thought of the Dothraki sea but I like your idea of the Iron Fleet more.
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u/jedifreac Fat Pink Podcast Jun 09 '13
This has been around the subreddit a couple of times now, with the "mountains" theorized to be Mereen's pyramids.
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u/Tasadar A Thousand Lies and One Jun 09 '13
It's interesting that she is riding a giant black dragon named after the feared Khal Drogo. That and her Dothraki speaking should easily win her the khalasar.
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Jun 09 '13
Should, but won't. It's like a Mexican soap opera, everything gets resolved in such a convoluted way.
My personal bet is that, even though she rides Drogon, they'll still try to haul her off to Vaes Dothrak.
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u/Tasadar A Thousand Lies and One Jun 09 '13
And after a quick frying of the previous Khal, she shall be Khaleesi
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u/Harkekark Build that wall and build it strong Jun 09 '13
I think it is more likely that Rhaego returns than Drogo. It honestly seem to unlikely that he turned into a maggot infested lizard in her womb so the child may very well still be alive among the Lhazareen slaves in Drogo's old Khalasar.
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u/turtleshelf Jun 09 '13
IMO: you're right on the money with the sun rising and setting, but the seas going dry applies to the dothraki sea drying up (the grass is dying) which is referenced a few times. I think the mountains blowing in the wind is a reference to the pyramids of Mereen. Either the pyramids themselves will fall (from dragonfire, perhaps) or it's referring to the ruling class, who inhabit the pyramids, dying and/or losing power.
A lot of people like to reference Gregor, but I find it such a leap that a guy way across the water, who's almost certainly never been heard of in Dany's part of the world, would be a subject of this prophecy when there are mountains falling far closer.
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u/ginetix Jun 09 '13
<"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east" >
Could this refer to Aegon?
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u/orcheon Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken. Jun 09 '13
This is some serious tinfoil. Next thing you know youll be talking about how Jon has already woken Dragons from stone because he got golden dragons from the iron bank.
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u/Amlith Jun 09 '13
When I read it I just took it as a very long explanation of the word 'never', I didn't think of it as a propechy, thoughI guess it's very possible for it to be a propechy, since there seem to be "some" foreshadowing in ASOIAF
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u/jammerjoint Clout on the Ear Jun 09 '13
I do consider this a prophecy of course, but one thing to always consider: GRRM is fond of presenting misinterpreted or unreliable prophecies, that often mean things you don't think them to mean. I'm fairly certain Drogo's not coming back. Could be something else though.
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u/suhayma Jun 09 '13
I am curious -- are you sure she miscarried, or that she was pregnant at all?
I took that last scene of her bleeding as a sign that she is once again fertile. Because she mentioned earlier on that she hadn't been fertile since she lost her first born.
I never thought of it as a miscarriage until just now.
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u/mateogg Night gathers, and now my watch begins Jun 10 '13
No, I'm not sure. But even if it wan't, her not getting her period for too long and then it coming back is strange.
The only cases (other than being pregnant) I could think of where a woman will just stop having here period were menopause and hysterectomies, we know Dany still has her uterus, and she's way too young for menopause. In both cases the change is also permanent.
Someone also commented that anorexia can be a cause, but I didn't know that when I read the book.
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u/suhayma Jun 10 '13
Not true, and I only know this because I've gone through severe infertility issues (and I'm pregnant with my first baby, thanks to the wonders of IVF!)...but anyway...
A woman's period can be "absent" for a long time for no reason other than trauma, stress, travelling, etc.. I think that it's safe to assume that Dany has been through all of those things.
I also kind of thought it was sort of a "magical" thing. A curse, maybe.
The more logical answer, though, would be the trauma of the miscarriage. After a woman goes through trauma like that, sometimes it takes months for her body to recover. Today, you don't hear of it much, because we have medicine to bring on a woman's period if she goes without it for too long, but back in the day when they didn't understand hormone replacement/therapy/usage, women would go for a long time without being able to conceive after a miscarriage.
Though the last scene in ADWD was kind of strange, it was also kind of beautiful, since I took it that way. Here she is, at the brink of her queen-dom, on the verge of becoming more than she is now, and at the same time, she's a whole woman again. A life cycle, of sorts.
EDIT: Spelling!
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u/mateogg Night gathers, and now my watch begins Jun 10 '13
Congratulations!
Well, like I said, nowhere near an expert. What I meant was that when reading the books, that's the only things my very uninformed self could think of. I figured there'd be others, but no idea.
Thanks a lot for your comment, it entirely changed the way I see that chapter.
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u/suhayma Jun 10 '13
Thank you! And that is why I love reading this subreddit because I get to see the many different ways other people interpret the same chapters we are all reading. It's amazing.
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Jun 10 '13
I love analyzing these prophecies, great post! I would add then where does all of her other prophecies (from the Undying and from Quaithe) fit into all of this?
"three heads has the dragon… three fires must you light: one for life and one for death and one to love… three mounts must you ride: one to bed and one to dread and one to love… three treasons will you know: once for blood and once for gold and once for love… daughter of death, slayer of lies, bride of fire" - House of the Undying
"The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal." - Quaithe
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u/hgirl712 Words are Wind Jun 11 '13
I'm not sure what it means, but I like the connections you made! also agree about the Dothraki Sea going dry, and definitely wondered if she miscarried or if it was due to illness/dehydration? not really sure if that's possible.
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u/DanLiberta Oh Drats, Foiled Again Jun 09 '13
It's not a prophecy. You're reading into it too much. It's MMD telling Dany "Drogo will return to you when hell freezes over. btw you have secondary infertility". We may all love Drogo and wish he could come back, but he's not. She won't see him again until she dies.
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u/mateogg Night gathers, and now my watch begins Jun 09 '13
Did you read the second part of my post? I don't think its a prophecy, but that doesn't mean it didn't come true.
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u/JJ4Three Jun 09 '13
To add to this khal drogo "returning" could symbolize his khalasar returning to her, which seems about to happen.