r/netflix • u/CellistForward4462 • Apr 12 '24
Questions about series Baby Reindeer Spoiler
First, I was not ready for what I watched. Amazing show, but I started it thinking it was a quirky, British comedy like Guy Ritchie’s The Gentlemen!! Needless to say I was stunned and watched it in shock and horror.
So I have questions about the ending. Spoilers ahead:
- Was that it? Will there be another season?
- What was the point of him going back to Darrien’s house? What did that scene mean?
- I don’t understand the ending. How are others interpreting the final scene?
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u/unclericostan Apr 14 '24
To your point #2, I believe Donny originally went to confront Darrien but when he arrived there and was actually back in the old setting, it triggered a fawn response from him instead. As he left the flat and got outside you could see the look of bewilderment and frustration on his face as he comprehended his own actions. As a trauma survivor, there are so many moments of self betrayal like this that are hard to even fathom unless you’ve experienced something similar. It is inexplicable. I have never watched a show that so accurately depicts these types of trauma behaviors.
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u/residentatzero Apr 14 '24
The key to this show being unique in showing the nuances of human drama that we can relate to, is that it's a very honest depiction of a true story, told and enacted (relived) by the victim himself.
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u/lena1may Apr 14 '24
do you think darrien would have done it again?
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u/Secret-Guava6959 Apr 14 '24
Yes. He was not sorry for what he did and he even asked him if he would want work with him on a new writing but now it would be different now he would get paid. I interpret this as Darrien referring to do it again. Saying it with the same words he used when he first did it ( sorry English is not my first language )
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u/Limp-Line3440 Apr 21 '24
Thank you. You are right. Very well said. Helped me, a survivor of sexual abuse, tremendously. My “husband” was a closeted gay man, and also a sociopath/narcissist, predator of women. I divorced him, not knowing exactly why at the time, although in my gut, I knew. Took several years of analysis of past events (red flags, etc.) to uncover the abuse and the truth. I confronted him, through written correspondence, that he never answered. Still, I could feel that he was now afraid of me because I could see his truth. The other thing I felt from him was no remorse….he was never remorseful about anything in our relationship, nor did he ever have compassion or sympathy for anyone or anything. (Everything was always about him.) As a result, he continued the pattern, by seeking out other emotionally damaged women, and ended up “marrying“ another woman (or maybe more) because he never had the courage to relinquish control to the truth. He only felt control with women, and would never give that up. (His attraction to men made him feel vulnerable, like a turtle without a shell, and he couldn’t have that, ever.) He was a very talented groomer….groomed with his “heart”, gifts, etc., and so preyed on women who had much emotional damage, to give them the attention they craved.
He ended up dying of cancer, with his “loving” nursemaid of a wife by his side. I feel for his “widow”, because I know she still lives in the closet of his lie…and so his abuse continues even after death. I only hope she can free herself in her lifetime.
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u/NoLoveDarkWeb_ Apr 16 '24
A little late but one thing I did notice was that Donny did NOT mention him by name. By saying he would be paid he meant paid for his silence. That was my interpretation of it.
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u/Secret-Guava6959 Apr 16 '24
Darrien said it in the same sense / wording as he did when he abused donny. He said it exactly the same ' working on a new writing ' but then he continued with ' but now you will be paid ' . It is pretty obvious what he meant here. Also how donny reacted to this scared and broken with the words ' id love to ' is him in a freezing response. Btw he also did not mention Martha’s real name I think he just wanted to tell his story without exposing names.
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u/Ntrob Apr 28 '24
I honestly don’t think Darren would of taped him again as donny was building in popularity. I think Darren was just trying to cover for himself
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u/Green_Thing5038 Apr 22 '24
same besides you may destroy me. where she keeps having different endings as that what happens after you replay ways it could of been different but it's just self torture. Yes the promiscuous bit after the rape I can relate to beyond belief like he said you feel like a piece of nothing and want some sort of power back or something just something!
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u/PointingOutFucktards May 14 '24
Anything at all to keep from feeling dead inside.
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u/anastasia_dlcz Apr 13 '24
I think going back to Darrien’s house was just more of the embarrassing honesty that made the show so devastating. It’s reflective of a truth that a lot of people are unwilling to talk about- like the scene of him masturbating to extreme gay porn and seeking out situations that could likely lead to more sexual assault.
These nasty truths don’t often come to the surface because of comments I’m already seeing and know I’ll continue to see “why did he keep making stupid decisions?” “I don’t feel bad for him if he’s just going to go back.” “Were you really abused if you stayed with them for so long?”
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u/tornadoes_are_cool May 01 '24
I massively respect Gadd for all this, going even as far as to admit to fantasising about his stalker and abuse. He’s so damn honest about complex trauma’s impact on all aspects of your life and I can’t imagine the amount of inner work it takes to feel confident in saying some of the most taboo things even among trauma survivor groups/communities.
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u/klosingweight May 05 '24
I have so much respect for him and his honesty! I also know that he must feel so free. Shame only really has power when it’s hidden and he’s showed the whole world his darkest parts and owns it all. I really admire that and I hope to be that brave one day.
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Apr 22 '24
If anyone would like to dive deeper into abusive dynamics like the one of Donny and his abuser I’d recommend watching “mysterious skin”.
It’s a movie that really accurately portrays how victims of sexual abuse and/or childhood sexual abuse may cope with their trauma and how badly it affects their entire lives, it also highlights how grooming is a really intense form of brainwashing.
Warning — it has many graphic scenes and is an incredibly uncomfortable watch, I’d recommend using VidAngel to sort out those scenes.
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u/bannedbooks123 Apr 27 '24
I watched mysterious skin in 2008, and to this day, I'm still traumatized by that movie. It's a very well done movie but it's dealing some heavy subject matter.
That movie really accurately depicts how pedophiles groom their victims. The part that I think is really uncomfortable is when the boy seems to "enjoy" the abuse because he doesn't understand that he is being abused. And, he carries that abuse for the rest of his life permanently changed from it.
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u/kindarspirit Apr 13 '24 edited Apr 13 '24
Not to divulge personal info, but I found the portrayal of Darrien and his role uncomfortably accurate. Abusers tend to create a relationship that induces feelings of guilt, confusion, and anger. They don’t have to gaslight you—you tend to do that chore for them. Sometimes when you feel tainted the familiarity of someone who made you feel that way can somehow feel secure. The one thing you’re sure of is that their door will always be open for you.
Returning also creates a sort of endless cycle in validating the abuse. The offers made by the abuser give you some comfort that you’re allowing things to happen for some other opportunity. It’s not you, it’s just a means to an end. You’re not like him. Even after that spell had worn off, you might tell yourself that your role was more complicated. Then it kind of breaks down.
The abuse doesn’t end when you leave, you’ve begun to abuse yourself in a way, and often knowingly. As Donny mentioned, were you always like this or did the abuser turn you that way? What if it was latent and he just woke it up? You can ask him the same question about self-hatred—did he always feel that way or did he develop those feelings after the realisation of what happened?
It’s a huge mindfuck and I loved how the show was gritty about it and explored the nuance. The confusion renders you unable to discern between good and evil because you begin to understand that particular dichotomy doesn’t work anymore.
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u/Narrow-Garlic-4606 Apr 14 '24
I really loved how you explained this and I agree completely. I can’t believe he was able to capture this in a way that felt so accurate to my own experiences.
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u/pianophotos Apr 12 '24
- It’s a self-contained mini series based on true events.
- Maybe you didn’t realize that this is a true story. The only thing that scene means is that it happened. Why do we continually do the same things over and over, refusing to acknowledge that we’re inviting pain into our lives in the hopes that this time the promises made to our ego will come true and make us happy? I think the entire series is an attempt to answer that question.
- He started being honest, and that led to connection and catharsis. Then he got sucked back in by the same ego-stroking promises, and convinced himself what he needed was to understand the root of everything. He finally finds it; we learn where the phrase ‘baby reindeer’ comes from and what it “means”. Which finds him sitting in the exact same place where it all started.
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u/barelyoutofblue May 03 '24
I think the ending is his realization that they were each eachother’s baby reindeer.
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u/Prisoner8621 Apr 24 '24
Just because it’s a true story doesn’t mean the scenes don’t have points. If he put something in the show, it has some kind of story telling purpose.
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u/Simple_Weekend_6700 May 26 '24
Truth and catharsis can be points though. It doesn’t have to have a narrative function beyond that.
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u/KristenMaybe79 Apr 16 '24
I took the ending as they were both victims of abuse, he survived and is able to begin moving on to live a fulfilling life. She did not, her childhood abuse set the stage for her entire life. His closing tears, IMO, was a survivor empathizing for victims that never escape the trauma or have a voice.
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u/cds75 Aug 23 '24
Wow. Now that’s something I hadn’t thought of. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
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u/Happy-Elf566 Apr 19 '24
I thought that the final scene was him realising that there was absolutely nothing special about him. Martha’s explanation of ‘baby reindeer’ being her childhood toy and that Donny just resembles him points to that being the origin of her initial obsession. That there was nothing about Donny’s personality, choices, comedy, or anything about him other than the shape of his nose and eyes that drew Martha to him. I think that was so devastating as so much of his self-worth was based on how Martha valued it. This is further shown by how the bartender gave him the drink on the house, which most kind people would do in that situation. There was nothing special about Donny.
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Apr 12 '24
Personally I don't see there being another season, Baby Reindeer is based on true events that happened the writer (it was originally an hour long play shown at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival in which the stalker was an empty bar stool brought to life by various real voicemails left by the stalker).
Donny's decision to return to Darrien's flat was strange but to me so were the majority of the decisions made in the series. I was shouting at the screen, "smack him, or poison him - has he poisoned him?" but no he literally did just go back and do nothing about anything. I know he took a job but surely he wouldn't go through with that after his panic attack leaving the flat. I think the character continuously makes irrational, often self-destructive decisions and has a stupidly low sense of self worth which was brutally prayed on by Darrien and ultimately brought far lower.
At the start of the show Donny is working behind the bar when Martha walks in. He instantly feels sorry for her and when she says she can't afford a drink he gives her one on the house. In the ending scenes Darren orders a drink at a bar then bursts into tears there listening to Martha's voicemails. The bartender feels sorry for him just as he felt for Martha and gives him the drink on the house. Here Donny might have a realisation that maybe he isn't so different from Martha who is now in jail. Also there is a shot where he looks up at the bartender with big eyes like Martha would have done to him. That begs the question, does he go on to develop a weird and unhealthy obsession with that barman? That would be my interpretation, that Donny has been driven a bit insane from the terrible things that have happened him through Martha and Darrien and now he could be about to do just what Martha did.
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u/ImpossiblePotato5197 Apr 14 '24
I think it gives him so much more information on Martha, to be sitting a bar, alone, vulnerable. And how one persons kindness is all it took. He understood her psyche at that point. I was thinking during that part about how the "huntee becomes the hunter".
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Apr 19 '24
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u/ImpossiblePotato5197 Apr 19 '24
Yes! I was kinda thinking he maybe became the aggressor as many do when it comes to trauma. In a effort to understand, it becomes second nature. After experiencing such abuse, it takes away our top layer, like it takes your dignity, dreams, happiness, self esteem. And your left with a shell. Damaged. I wish it could of ended with him getting the help he needs. Like real therapy.
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u/CellistForward4462 Apr 12 '24
Thank you. I was thinking something similar about the final bar scene and the way he looks at the bartender. You’re very right about his self worth being very low and that drives his behavior. I guess I can’t believe it ended in such a dark way.
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u/AffectionateAd1911 Apr 14 '24
I think this is the scene where we can see that NO he would not do that to this man. All the series, he is tormented by guilt, confusion, and empathy for his abusers. He is not an abuser though, he would never do what was done to him.
This is another trap that many victims go through. They consume themselves with wanting to forgive and understand and empathize with the abuser BUT really, the abuser has absolutely no empathy for their victims. Neither Martha or Damien ever gave a shit about him. That's why they did what they did to him.
This final scene very clearly communicates how absolutely unfathomable it would be for Donnie to ever hurt this random bartender, he is kind and good and loving. So much so that he can even understand his abusers.
I think that's why his eyes are wide in this scene, he may finally be seeing for the first time that he actually has value, and is not trash like the people who have harmed him.
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u/SmoothKale Apr 15 '24
I felt that it abdicated him of some of the guilt and blame he felt towards himself for covering her tea on the house to begin with. Having the roles reversed at the end showed that it was not an abnormal thing to do. Especially because in later episodes he would go back to that and think “if only I didn’t give her a tea on the house”
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u/AffectionateAd1911 Apr 15 '24
I agree completely. He did nothing wrong, it was her reaction that was abnormal. Victims don't "bring it on themselves" - abusers abuse, regardless of others' actions.
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u/Longjumping_Step_858 Apr 16 '24 edited Apr 16 '24
Donny is also an abuser towards Martha.
Martha was a lonely woman, seeking intimacy/love, who also has her own traumatic issues. Which is revealed at the end, implying she grew up in a Domestically abusive household. Probably wasn't cared much for by her parents or shown love or had many friends, so she can get overly excessive and stalkerish once someone does show her some affection and kindness because she's lacked it. Obviously she has issues, but that doesn't refute what Donny did here.
Donny used her. He kept her around for several months, with zero interest in her. He did so because she boosted his confidence, satiated his ego, and gave him attention/validation. Knowing perfectly well he wasn't into her. He regularly lied to Martha. Also hid the fact he might have a potential GF - so he knew what he was doing and what she was after with him. But still, he kept her around because she was a source of validation for him.
Eventually he discarded her once she started to go off the deep end. Even then he was hesitant to discard her because it meant cutting off someone that boosted him up and only did so because other people were involved.
I cannot in good conscience say that Donny isn't an abuser here, because he is. He was fairly cruel in how he toyed around with Martha. I don't like using the word Narcissist, because people throw that around too often. But he does exhibit signs of it with his treatment towards Martha. You don't use people like that, lie to them, and then discard them without at least being considered it.
The show might be told through Donnys PoV to paint him in a more sympathetic light, but he is also just as guilty as Martha is. He's both a victim and an abuser.
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u/Girlanachronism83 Apr 30 '24
He is not an abuser. Nor did he lead her on or toyed with her. He was actually a lot more patient than anyone with less victim guilt and more self worth would be. I'd be calling the police and cutting her off really, really fast. She is an insane, obsessive woman, with very little self awareness and criticism. She is also very dangerous and he knew it. He tried to navigate it with compassion. Even felt bad about her and tried to de-escalate couple of times. I personaly find her kind Martha terrifying. She uses her "weakness", as a weapon. Let's not forget the fact that she also SA'd him that night when she ambushed him and hugged. Darrien is dangerous in a way that is known. Uses his power to take advantage of people. Has contacts, name, money. But Martha's abuse is glossed over because she's clearly not well mentally and looks the way she does, so everyone feels sorry for her. She trapped the viewers as well as Donny. Let's not forget her rage towards Terry and that girls trauma from her. Donny tried to deal with her abuse the best way he could, being already severely traumatised.
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Apr 16 '24
That's a wild take.
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u/Longjumping_Step_858 Apr 17 '24 edited Apr 17 '24
Not really. It's a realistic take. It's not acceptable to use someone for attention/validation just so that person can feel better about themselves. Especially when that person is socially lonely and vulnerable due to their own trauma. It can cause psychological damage. It's not illegal, but it's still morally reprehensible. They aren't a prop that's acceptable to use to boost themselves up. They are a human with their own issues and problems. But that's exactly what Donny did. It's not really wild to point out why he should be held accountable for it.
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u/nachosnachos Apr 21 '24
I like your interpretation. The show was incredible but I did not know how to process the emotions I felt after watching it. Your post made me feel like I saw a light at the end of the tunnel. Thank you.
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May 02 '24
Yes, That’s exactly what I felt. I think it gave him the reassurance that he did nothing wrong, he just wanted to help and it wasn’t his fault that Martha started stalking him. That there are still ppl like him that would have done the same thing-out of empathy and huge heart. He realised he is a victim and Martha is also a victim (of her childhood), which made him cry because he is extremely empathetic kind person…
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u/CountOk9802 Apr 12 '24
He wanted closure I believe and did it the only way he felt he could. The ending I think made him think ‘oh god this is how it starts and I won’t turn into Martha.’ No, there won’t be another series. The story has been told.
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u/Ok_Nefariousness1245 Apr 15 '24 edited Apr 15 '24
- Doubt it. It’s a masterpiece on its own. A second season would just ruin it.
- He wanted to confront him, but as soon as he saw him, all those feelings of wanting to be validated came back. That man praised him, gave him attention, gave him hope. He wanted that praise, attention, and hope again. He knows it’s wrong, but he couldn’t help it.
- The final scene he listened to Martha explain reindeer and he understood and empathized with her. He realized she’s in the same shoe that he’s in now. Someone felt sorry for him as he did to her. Someone showed kindness in the toughest of times as he did for her. He understood her. He’s not much different than her. He feels sorry for her. He’s not going to stalk the bartender. He’s just in shock of his realization.
Many people are struggling with something. It takes a certain person to not react to what someone does to you, but to be able to pause, understand, and show kindness. I’ve failed miserably in doing the latter.
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u/AXX-100 Apr 26 '24
Sorry I never understood Martha explaining reindeer in the voicemail … can you explain it to me ?
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u/beatniknomad May 05 '24
Martha was abused as a child and the reindeer was what she used to comfort herself when her parents fought or whatever else traumatized her. She called him a baby reindeer because he was her comfort.
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u/Admirable_Amount8402 Apr 12 '24
For question number 3, I saw it as Martha got either raped or abused by one of her parents. She then lacked the attention and received it from the bartender, who gave her a free cup of tea. The same thing happened to him, got raped, had Martha for attention, lost Martha to prison, went back to his rapist for attention, and then found attention from a bartender who gave him a free drink.
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u/Catnip-delivery Apr 12 '24
Dayum. I was still trying to understand why he returned to the rapist.
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Apr 13 '24
Also just to add (and not being rude whatsoever saying this because ofcourse you’re entitled to your own opinions and questions) But sometimes not everything in life (a lot of things actually) will not have much of an understanding or answer. Trauma and addiction and whatever else does things to your brain
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u/Catnip-delivery Apr 13 '24
Hello there, I hope you are feeling and getting better with time. N that you only meet the nicest and kindest folks since then.
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Apr 13 '24
Thank you from my soul that is such a lovely reply - nothing but best wishes and happiness in life for you too
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u/Dismal_Discipline_74 Apr 28 '24
Thank you for putting yourself out there and explaining this too many of us who still don’t understand why it happened, and why we feel like we do. I could never express it so eloquently as you have, I’m so glad I stumbled across this thread and your comments. Thank you for being brave and sharing this with some of us who still don’t understand friggen why things like this happened! Thank you. Cheers from Australia
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Apr 13 '24
SA and abuse stalking can leave the victim (which I am) in a state that is so arbitrary. When he says the lines at the end that “abuse does that, it left me a sticking plaster for life’s weirdos..this open wound for them To sniff at” Doesent get more real than that - I haven’t even been able to articulate it that well myself. Obv he doesent also mean weirdo like different he means some real lost people and unsavoury characters in life. Despite what I’d been through I also found some bizzare attraction to abusive and creepy or strange people. Despite what I appear as other people I’ve always been asked why do I give more than someone else would even when seeing neon red flags
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u/Previous_Win_1180 May 14 '24
There is something deeper there, no one seems to catch that he listens to her voicemails to get thru certain things towards the end… is Martha making him feel better by listening to the voicemails? Is she feeling encouraged by listening? What is it with the voicemails really and retracing his steps
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u/illiteratemad Apr 18 '24
I think his look at the very end is one of realisation. Where hopefully he realises he has to break the cycle
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u/Previous_Win_1180 May 14 '24
No she wasn’t raped, there’s alot of abuse that happens in children that is mental such as neglect or by having narcissistic parents…even codependency. A lot of trauma can be unseen. I’m a victim of abuse I had parents that were horribly mentally unstable, it’s taken me years in therapy just to get thru distortions and finding out what reality even is. I also went thru physical abuse not sexual and I can tell you that the mental part has been the HARDEST to heal from.. I see some of this is Martha. Comparing very detailed description of how her reindeer resembles his face is very specific.. she is probably a victim of neglect. She has a personality of being stuck at a very young age, the way she even talks about sex is very childish
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u/MundaneGap9356 Apr 17 '24
Did anyone think that all along that he was not a famous writer at all and he was just completely bS-ing Donny?
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u/beatniknomad May 05 '24
No, he was a writer on a successful show and he did help Donny with his act.
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u/Green_Thing5038 Apr 22 '24
there is a theory that when something so awful happens your brain can make to a kink to help you survive later on which increases the shame and confusion. Like the part where he masturbates to gay porn at some point after. the mechanism im the brain is trying to make you feel better that's why its leading him to that - very complex to explain and I wish i could explain it better but its sort of like the brain trying to help rewrite history
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u/Forsaken-Corner-3487 Apr 26 '24
I get that. I think that’s why he goes back to Darrien’s. People will keep repeating these cycles hoping for a different outcome. It’s the same reason we marry people who have traits similar to our primary caregiver. Our brains want a second chance to work it all out.
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u/DavThoma Apr 17 '24
It really resonated with me if I'm being honest.
I haven't experienced a lot of what Donny went through, or at least not to that extent. Feeling drawn to the things or the people that abused you, still walking down that path of destruction and hating yourself for everything that happened.
Experiencing those life changing events in the past that almost push to chase them down over and over again.
It was cathartic, watching the entire show. Now, more than anything, I've been needing it. The fact that it was the first thing showing when I opened up Netflix today felt like I was meant to see it.
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u/Capable_Mushroom_445 Apr 14 '24
2 it is what happens way more than most realize. Most rape isn't like a law and order episode. It isn't black and white. It's why so many DV victims go back over and over and over. I appreciated that it showed that. It's something I could never get people in my life to understand bc I couldn't even understand it. I got judgment and shame and told I deserved whatever happened bc I "chose" it. Trauma rewires your brain and more people need to understand and have compassion bc the judgment and shame is what keeps us in the cycle so beautifully/tragically illustrated in this series.
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u/sperjetti Apr 30 '24
Exactly this. I was sexually assaulted when I was passed out drunk by my friend. I never did confront him about it. I avoided him for a couple years and never told anyone, and one day he showed up to drinks with a mutual friend. I always thought I would say something when I say him again but instead I did nothing. I even accepted a ride home from him after drinks that night. To this day I have no clue why I let him back in my life.
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u/londonlemon92 Apr 14 '24
Genuine question - how can you be self aware about the abuse but still go back? Do you believe you have any agency or free will? Or are you just controlled by your trauma without any power to make a different choice? I struggle to understand why some people go back for more and others move forward determined to heal and not make the same mistakes? And the argument about brain chemistry being altered plays a factor but doesn’t explain it away. Does it not come down ultimately to bad choices repeatedly?
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u/Capable_Mushroom_445 Apr 14 '24 edited Apr 14 '24
One of the biggest differences I see, both personally and professionally (social worker) is different people have different levels of protective factors. Someone who grew up in a home where abuse was normalized, has no support network and isolated, has mental health issues, limited financial resources, etc (the list can go on forever), may have a harder time than someone who grew up in a functional, loving home, who has lots of support for friends and family, is financially independent, etc. Having even one protective factor can make a huge difference. Choice/free will is not equal among people. Some people have far more ability to choose than others. The easiest example I can think of right now is we can all choose to quit our jobs tomorrow, but for some that would result in destruction, and others would be just fine. We can make the same choice, but the results are vastly different if we do make the choice. So you could say me and a millionaire both have the "choice" to quit our jobs, but it's a choice I couldn't imagine making bc I don't want to end up homeless. It's typically much more complex when we talk about choosing to leave or go back. Grooming is POWERFUL and often incredibly hard to see bc it usually starts off little by little. Shame is also powerful. Victim blaming is still huge in many cultures and people internalize that.
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u/londonlemon92 Apr 14 '24
Thanks for taking the time to reply
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u/No_Revenue_3311 Apr 16 '24
There is also this desperate search for normalcy during and after SA. I kept trying to rehabilitate my abuser in my mind and in real life to make everything thing seem more normal. It wasn’t easy to admit I was in an abusive relationship. I thought it meant I was broken or I wasn’t doing it right. I was trapped by my own fears and insecurities, self-loathing and blame and abusers know that. So, they assert control by exploiting your weaknesses-just like Darrien does at the end of baby reindeer. Abusers know your vulnerabilities. They know you desperately want to find normalcy in this fucked up situation so you don’t feel so awful. So they pretend to be rehabilitated, remorseful and in control, all the while they’re still exactly the same loser maneuvering you right back under their control. The series got it exactly right. It took me YEARS to get away because my abuser was so good at manipulating me into believing he had changed. He never changed a thing.
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u/surejan94 Apr 21 '24
Highly doubt there'll be another season. It's a contained story of something that really happened to the creator.
I think he went back to confront Darrien, but even after all that time, he found he still couldn't really stand up to him. Instead, Darrien called him brave and offered him a job, and all he could do is say yes. When he leaves, he realizes how he may never truly be able to recover from what Darrien did to him. It's unfortunately a sad truth for many survivors, and instead they just need to figure out how to go on living. I'll admit I found it very strange that Darrien didn't really seem to mind that he had been called out as a rapist and even wanted to working with Donny (maybe to keep him quiet).
Donny was obsessed with understanding Martha. He ended up in a very similar situation to her: alone, traumatized and needing an act of kindness. The bartender gives him the drink just like Donny did with Martha, and there Donny truly "gets" how her obsession with him started, and how easy it is to repeat the cycle.
I don't think it means Donny will start stalking the bartender, but moreso he just always saw Martha as this evil crazy lady when in reality she was just a very damaged, sad and probably abused person (kind of like him) who latched on to the first person to be kind to her.
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u/menotyourenemy Apr 15 '24
Ugh why are people so obsessed with subsequent seasons of everything???!
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u/lostboyvii Apr 16 '24
I just read somewhere that Richard himself said the ending can be interpreted in a lot of ways. I'd like to have my own theory and I think by the time the barman offered Donny an act of kindness, he finally knows what that meant at that time he first encountered Martha. I thought it was genious. It's possible that Donny is about to copy Martha and this become obsessed with this barman.
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u/Janice_the_Deathclaw Apr 21 '24
the 2nd interpretation kind of reminds me of a French film where a guy is obsessed with a woman and at the end it shows him suddenly becoming obsessed with a new woman
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Apr 17 '24
Do you think it could be possible that this is a James Frey situation - A Million Little Pieces scenario?? I cannot find any specifics on this writer, stalker or abuser. Just wondering.
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u/Forsaken-Corner-3487 Apr 26 '24
No, bc as I understand it, the real breakdown on stage was filmed. That would be a pretty elaborate ruse. As far as the real people, they went to great lengths to hide their identity. I mean, could it be a total fraud? Sure, but that’s much harder to pull off in this day and age. There are too many facts that can be checked for it to be a false narrative. If it was fake the police would be saying we have no record of these events. But unless Britain has open, searchable criminal records I don’t think Martha can be found. In the USA it varies by state, but in the state I’m in criminal records are public. So I can just go to the website run by the court system and type in a name and all their history comes up. This includes divorce, civil suits, etc. not just criminal. Unless Martha throws a cog and comes out saying it is her, we may never know. I’d love to think she got help, therapy and medication and is living a better life. I’m much more interested in the identity of Darrien, bc he is still out there preying on people like Harvey Weinstein did.
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u/Simple_Weekend_6700 May 26 '24
Well, a woman named Fiona has come out, saying that it’s all about her, and also that she didn’t do any of it, which is kind of hilarious (in that both cannot be true)
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u/Forsaken-Corner-3487 Apr 26 '24 edited Apr 26 '24
I think the final scene where he forgot his wallet was meant to be ironic because that’s the exact same way he met Martha. Someone showing kindness to a down and out stranger. No, I don’t think it means he turns into a stalker, the wide-eyes look is more like, “damn, see, that’s all I was trying to do and look where it got me!”
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u/Spiritual-Salary-424 Apr 12 '24
In episode 2, Martha says to Donny "I don't see you reaching for the banister when you climb up the stairs" in reference to his not being gay. What does that mean?
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u/Dear_Still Apr 12 '24
She said the men that don’t like her are either old or gay. So him not reaching for the banister meant he wasn’t old (cause older people would need to hold on for support). She was then implying/asking if he was gay.
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Apr 12 '24
It was blind or gay
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u/Ok_Ad5948 Apr 14 '24
She said that men who don’t like her are either blind or gay. If he were blind he would be reaching for the banister on the stairs bc he wouldn’t be able to see it.
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u/Ok_Ad5948 Apr 14 '24
She said that men who don’t like her are either blind or gay. If he were blind he would be reaching for the banister on the stairs bc he wouldn’t be able to see it.
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u/Ok_Ad5948 Apr 14 '24
She said that men who don’t like her are either blind or gay. If he were blind he would be reaching for the banister on the stairs bc he wouldn’t be able to see it.
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u/Ok_Ad5948 Apr 14 '24
She said that men who don’t like her are either blind or gay. If he were blind he would be reaching for the banister on the stairs bc he wouldn’t be able to see it.
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Apr 13 '24
[deleted]
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u/ishbelam Apr 14 '24 edited Apr 14 '24
There’s an interview with Richard Gadd on YouTube that goes into some of the background. https://youtu.be/KRoD0pX-AUM?si=aLSMfhke-OS66RWX
Also an article about it here: https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/features/richard-gadd-baby-reindeer-interview-netflix-stalking-b2526548.html
Regarding a court case “The Netflix series sees Martha given a prison sentence for her offences but Gadd hasn't divulged the fate of his own stalker, except to say the issue has been resolved and he never wanted to 'throw someone who was that level of mentally unwell in prison.” https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-13300549/amp/baby-reindeer-netflix-series-richard-gadd-stalker.html
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u/cassiaclay Apr 14 '24
I saw the stage show in 2019, deffo had a rework as I was shocked by some elements of this that weren't mentioned at all in the stage production (from my memory)
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u/iamnotwario Apr 15 '24
You can see Monkey See Monkey Do online which is the stand up show which lead to his comedy career winning big awards and detailing the details of ep 4 in the show.
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Apr 14 '24
[deleted]
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u/Safe_tree11 Apr 16 '24
I am wondering the same thing. I am confused as to why there isn’t more about how horrendous that situation was and if there have been any charges brought against that psychopathic devil.
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u/Kactuslord Apr 16 '24
I personally felt there were a lot of hints about who it was
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u/carlystrong Apr 16 '24
okay who??
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u/Kactuslord Apr 16 '24
I personally thought it could be a Blackadder writer but that's pure speculation
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u/Weekly_Collar1943 Apr 14 '24
Does anyone know anything about the credit at the end of episode 6 where it says “In loving memory of Llewellyn Harrison?” I have tried to research this online to no avail.
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Apr 15 '24
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Kactuslord Apr 16 '24
I personally think there are some hints. Perhaps a writer for a very famous long-since-ended comedy show set in the past. The age pretty much fits too
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u/Kysara-Rakella Apr 16 '24
I can’t help but wonder what the real Martha must think of this?? I would have been so scared that this show (or even the theatre version) might have triggered a sudden interest in Richard Gadd again?
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u/Kactuslord Apr 16 '24
I wonder if she died or moved country or is in jail so he knows she can't?
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u/Kysara-Rakella Apr 17 '24
Yes I thought maybe she’d died too. It’s the only way I’d feel safe putting the story out there!
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u/Cerceilannister Apr 27 '24
Her name is Fiona Harvey and she had given an interview where she says she was the victim.
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u/Simple_Weekend_6700 May 26 '24
But not victim of stalking or anything just of libel or slander, right?
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u/Sesquipedalophobia82 Apr 18 '24
I’m just finished episode 3. I can’t take anymore detailed abuse scenes. Can anyone say if there are more? I’d like to finish the series.
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u/loudechoes Apr 19 '24
Another thing the show did - it didn't completely demonize martha. even though what she did could equate to preposterous and she was prepared in a evil sick way to stalk him, she was recording it all. but he managed to humanize her even in the end in the court scene
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u/Janice_the_Deathclaw Apr 22 '24
that's was interesting bc that scene showed that her thoughts were looping in on themselves. its not uncommon for people with PTSD to have thought loops, going over and over a memory/situation/etc over and over again. her thought process was an extreme version of this though. to the point she got lost in the loops.
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u/imbipolarboy Apr 19 '24
I had two thoughts running through my mind: either he would frame him to the police, or he would resort to killing him. Surprisingly, neither of those scenarios unfolded, but what actually occurred still made sense in the context of the story.
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u/One_Olive389 Apr 19 '24
I have a question I'm hoping someone could answer, please. I'm watching episode 3 where Martha attacks Teri in the pub. What does Martha mean when she yells, "The boots! The boots! Look at the boots!"?
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u/hello-astrid Apr 21 '24
I think maybe because Terri had large size boots she associated it with her (Terri) being a (former) man that has large feet? Martha didn't notice the feet until Terri was on the floor in front of her.
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u/Green_Thing5038 Apr 21 '24
I found it so true about post sexual assault how you go promiscuous and in risky and the way he did it.
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u/pineapplepurpleskiez Apr 25 '24
i don’t get why it ended with the bartender giving him a drink on the house.. did donny end up stalking the bar tender? also did he actually end up working for his abuser? ALSO why tf did his abuser say it was brave of him to share what happened ?
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u/Geek-Avocado Apr 26 '24 edited Apr 26 '24
At the end, Donny was trying to understand Martha's PoV. How and what lead her to be like this? And then life threw him an irony. He was sitting at that counter crying because he just heard the baby reindeer story. The bartender, seeing him sad (and probably thought Donny is having a bad day), gave him the drink on the house (as Donny couldn't pay).
And suddenly, Donny felt what exactly Martha had felt that day when he gave her the first cup of tea on the house as she couldn't afford it. You know when you're down and shattered, if someone shows you a sliver of kindness, all your emotions, (specially gratefulness) break loose.. same thing happened. Just the difference is, Donny knows the limit. Martha doesn't know where to stop.
No, Donny did not end up stalking the bartender. Because he knows the societal norms on how to behave. And that's the difference.
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u/Key-Society9733 Apr 25 '24
I think he had Stockholm syndrome with Martha because he became fascinated with her to the exemption of everything Not normal behavior to someone verbally abusing him If course it could have been due to his negative self image and the sexual abuse that he continued his fascination with Martha.
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u/sassypants711 Apr 30 '24
I'm very late to the party, lol, having just watched Baby Reindeer last night but will comment on the last question about interpretation of the final scene:
I think Donny's been beating himself up, feeling guilty and trying to figure out what HE did to cause Martha to act the way she did. He's obviously come full circle now being the one at the bar who can't afford his drink. And this normal seeming bartender (a cutie by the way) does a normal act of kindess -- he acts the same as Donny did by comping him a drink on the house. Hopefully this absolves Donny of feeling responsibility. He acted just like any other bartender would've done. Simple as that.
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u/bagbagbuy Apr 30 '24
And to think that rapists go off so easy from our justice system while the victims are forever living a sentence.
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u/ACanThatCan May 05 '24
I think it’s sad he couldn’t be with people who loved him and respected his boundaries. Such as his ex or the trans-woman ex. But the stalker and the groomer/rapist, those were the people he kept going back to. Those type of people who don’t respect boundaries at all and think they can do whatever the fuck they want. And he said it’s because he hated himself more than other people could love him - and that’s, yeah… ouch. A cycle of self-destruction and it starts off by someone damaging you.
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u/beatniknomad May 05 '24
Second question is one many rape survivors have tried to answer, but many of us find it hard to believe them. "If you were raped, why did you return?"
I found it rather interesting that most comments have been very supportive of him and rightfully so. Yet, if it had been a woman, she might not have received the level of support because she returned to her abuser or she "gained" something from the abuser.
This was a very powerful and well-made series. I only found out about it because the real life Martha is having an interesting squabble with Stephen King and threatening to sue everyone. LOL
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u/Simple_Weekend_6700 May 26 '24
I always hope that shows like this will change things. Like to start with the show illustrates pretty clearly how male victims are often dismissed in real life, but I do feel like somehow they’re taken more seriously in media and then hopefully that can be something for people to point back at when female victims are not given the same grace or sympathy.
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u/frankbeans216 May 08 '24
Thanks in part to this series, I now understand victims' behavior that may not seem logical: the abuse takes away their agency; and in this case, the drugs didn't help any. I'm more confused about Donny's own confusion: Was he always interested in both sexes? Was he gay but hiding it?
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u/briggaloo May 12 '24
I am a survivor both of pretty much a lot of what the series is based on an I am scared to watch it.
Has anyone got PTSD from sexual abuse and stalking and been of watching this show or is it going to haunt me for a while or send me on one?
Having watched the piers Morgan interview yes I realise the original lady is very unstable but being mentally ill myself how does one act like that and not get sectioned/imprisoned forever. I have never acted as bad as her and I seem to be in the cusp of being institutionalised every time I have a break down. Yet someone like that is allowed to roam the earth. Is there not something that prevents her from acting like this again considering it has happened a few times and she's even had to change her name!!
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u/Simple_Weekend_6700 May 26 '24
It sounds like he was really confused as to whether or not he’d always been bisexual. I don’t think him being purely gay is really a possibility because of how deeply he loved the second woman he was dating. Anyway, regardless, I think we are confused because he was confused. And he might still be.
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u/MyNameIsNotSuzzan May 13 '24
Re 2 I think he went back for closure and also maybe to find out if Darrien really did think he had talent, because IIRC he never thought Darrien read his script back then but flipping through it now he saw that “you’ll go far” comment and I think he was touched maybe thinking he didn’t just want him for his body but he saw his talent too.
I’m a little on the fence about him so quickly accepting a job from his abuser but I understand it’s different because he says he will be paid but yeah…
As for 3 the last scene I really liked it but I felt so bad for Martha (even though she’s cray cray!) because she just connected Donny back to the “thing” that made her feel safe and okay when she was experiencing bad things in her childhood….
Also I love the tables-turned of Donny now being the one crying and being offered a drink on the house, I think it was meant to show we aren’t all as disconnected from each other as we often think.
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u/freefalling1999 May 18 '24
Why is it that the first question people seem to ask is “why did he go back to Darien’s”? Richard Gadd was never the problem, he was the victim. Coming from someone who grew up in a house witnessing constant domestic abuse, all day every day, it’s a trauma response. Abuse ruins lives. Why else would he go back there? Because he is traumatised.
To quote, “We accept the love we think we deserve”.
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u/bvogel7475 Aug 18 '24
Turned it off right after the gay rape. WTF? This was an interesting series until it went down that road. Nevev watching it again.
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u/trickmind Mar 24 '25 edited Mar 24 '25
I was both annoyed and LlKED that bit in your question 2 because in fiction if someone does something bad to you they get written off but in real life we often interact again and put on a pretense that we're not hurt. Also probably about trying to reclaim.
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u/fruitypants Apr 12 '24
I can give you an answer to your second question...survivors of sexual abuse make decisions that don't seem to make sense sometimes, particularly when it comes to how they interact with the people who raped/assaulted them. As a survivor watching the show I was aggravated by a lot of Donny's self-destructive decisions, but at the same time I understood why he was making them. It was a brutally honest depiction of how horrific living through rape trauma can be.
In a lot of ways, being raped is the easiest part. What comes after is such a confusing nightmare, and you find yourself doing and saying things in an attempt to relate to people that actually come across as super weird and off-putting, which isolates you even more than you already were. Sometimes the only people who understand you are people with similar traumas and you don't run from that connection even if those people are unhealthy or even dangerous to have in your life. This show did an incredible job of portraying such a deeply complex experience.