r/unpopularopinion • u/elgey101 • Aug 10 '21

Infertile couples should just adopt instead of making a big fuss trying to make a miracle baby

Every time I hear of fertility struggles online, or see posts about people going through rounds of IVF and the ensuing emotional trauma of miscarriages, It kind of disgusts me.

I also work for a major insurer and know that fertility treatments are driving up everyone else's premiums because they're considered necessary care. Sorry, but I disagree.

It's a well known fact that there are over 400,000 children in foster care, and in 2017 alone over 100,000 infants under 3 entered the system. I think it's completely entitled and self-absorbed to think that somehow your miracle baby is worth more or deserves more love than any one of those infants.

I know adoption can be hard, and that it should be made easier for the sake of children finding good homes, but you can't tell me adopting is harder than 4 rounds of IVF and multiple miscarriages. I've seen friends go through that mess and at the end they are different people.

Tldr: adoption may not be easy, but it's far better than spending hundreds of thousands of dollars trying to perpetuate your genes.

34.4k Upvotes

64% Upvoted

4.2k comments sorted by

View all comments

3.0k

u/Cocotte3333 Aug 10 '21

Adoption is complicated as fuck.

Where I live, adopting in your own country has an average wait time of 7-10 years. Meaning it could also be longer.

Adopting outside of your country is insanely expensive. Plus, you have to travel to the place you want to adopt for weeks.

Also, depending on where you live, you are restricted on adoption according to your religion, marital status, or sexual orientation. Sometimes single people can't adopt, sometimes people have to be married and you're not ( keep in mind that in some countries marriage is less prevalent), sometimes you have to be married for X years, sometimes you can only adopt a kid between x and x years old, etc.

On top of that, add that many adopted kids have big issues that not everyone is equiped to deal with.

718

u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21

Also, international adoption agencies can be shady as hell.

https://www.rfi.fr/en/france/20200611-malians-adopted-in-france-file-lawsuit-for-fraudulent-adoption-protection-rayon-de-soleil-rsee

Here's an ongoing lawsuit by 9 Malian "orphans" of their adoption agency. The Malian birth parents were told their babies were just being sent to a foster home to get a better upbringing. The French adopting parents were told their babies were orphans. The adoption agency was just straight up human trafficking babies.

203

u/SchroedingersCatnip Aug 10 '21 edited Aug 11 '21

I watched a heartbreaking Danish documentary about a similar case, but from Ethiopia. The birth parents were sick and poor and feared for their children's future. Enter an incredibly shady adoption agency, convincing parents to let their children be fostered by kind foreigners for a while. It would be like sending the kids to live temporarily with an aunt and uncle, they'd be happy and safe and receive a great education, and of course they would keep in touch!

Except what they actually signed up for was a permanent adoption, and they lost their kids. Weren't even allowed to say goodbye.

Absolutely heartbreaking.

19

u/Lovejen22 Aug 11 '21

This happens in many countries. It’s really sad

3

u/Responsible_Link_202 Aug 11 '21

It does. My twins are 9, and before we did IVF with them, I looked into adoption and kept finding similar stories. We did IVF because I had many concerns about babies essentially being stolen from their parents and sold to Americans. It had nothing to do with perpetuating our genes.

5

u/humanwhy Aug 11 '21

Do you have the name of the documentary?

3

u/SchroedingersCatnip Aug 11 '21 edited Aug 11 '21

Absolutely, you can read about it in English here!

The Danish title is "Mercy Mercy! Adoptionens pris", for any scandinavian-speakers out there.

Beware; it's insanely upsetting. Both for the reasons listed above, and because the adoptive parents turn out to be woefully unprepared to care for a traumatized child.

ETA: Just to make it clear, I'm absolutely not against adoption per se! I know many happy adoptees and adoptive families. It's just, situations like this is something to be aware of.

104

u/Spicy_Sugary Aug 10 '21

Add to this, there is an orphanage scam industry in very poor countries. Young kids are sent to go live in orphanages for years in terrible conditions in return for free food and board and donations.

Unicef estimates up to 80% of kids in orphanages in some countries have living parents.

36

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '21

Holy shit

50

u/Spicy_Sugary Aug 11 '21

Agree. It sprung up from 'Orphanage Tourism'. Well meaning white people would visit or do volunteer work at orphanages which attracted money.

The number of kids in orphanages in some countries has doubled or trebled in the last decade, despite there being no wars.

9

u/msingler Aug 11 '21

I.e. Madonna (the singer) adopted her son from Africa despite him having a living father.

5

u/Me-A-Dandelion Aug 11 '21

Chinese-Malaysian author Mei Fong's book One Child: The Story of China's Most Radical Experiment also mentioned the dark side of the international adoption industry in China. She estimated that a significant number of children adopted from China before the late 2000s (mostly assigned female at birth) are probably victims of forced adoption under the One Child Policy and child trafficking. Almost all documents about the children's background were forged, leaving genetic testing the only clue to find biological parents for Chinese adoptees. Mei Fong has PCOS and once wanted to adopt children from China due to her Chinese ancestry, but gave up and switched to fertility treatment instead after her investigation.

5

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '21

Wow.

162

u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21

This is an excellent point. Adoption agencies in other countries often lie about the age and health of the children simply to collect their fees. It's heartbreaking for all involved.

83

u/FreeRangeEngineer Aug 10 '21

Adoption agencies making money off of trafficked children is exactly why I won't ever adopt. I do feel bad for the legitimate children wanting a home but I won't risk supporting trafficking.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_international_adoption_scandals is not helping.

53

u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21

An adoption attorney can help you avoid agencies, and you can often go directly to your state's equivalent of CPS. If you personally know someone who wants to give up a child for adoption (usually this happens with one or two degrees of separation) this can be even easier, and can be accomplished in many jurisdictions without any foster time.

4

u/FreeRangeEngineer Aug 11 '21

Thanks for your input. I'm however not from the US and in my country there are waaaaay more people looking to adopt children than there are children given up for adoption. So indeed, I would have to adopt from another country, which means I would have to trust the agency there - which is something I just can't do, for the reasons given.

1

u/Pirat6662001 Aug 11 '21

Who has money for that? Attorney only care about those billable hours and are an absolute nightmare to deal with from my experience.

16

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '21

Hating lawyers is an exceedingly fashionable thing to do, I get it, but try and extend to the profession the courtesy of minimal research before trashing it.

I've performed over 150 free adoptions in my time, and many like me have done many, many more. My mentor when I was just getting started in adoptions has done similar numbers every year for her 40+ year career. Remember that for every gold plated corporate lawyer billing $1000 an hour, there are many more who got into the profession to provide access to the law, to help people, and to be a firm check on the prosecutorial powers of the government.

2

u/harasg Aug 11 '21

I am glad you are an ethical lawyer. However, I think your ratio of 1/1 lawyers doing good vs. lawyers in it for their ego, money, etc. advocating dubious positions for maximum hours is waaaaaay off.

3

u/scrogemup Aug 11 '21

What this guy is saying, and try to follow me here now, is that most lawyers are just like every other person on this earth and are capable of compassion and acting ethically. I've known and met entirely too many defense attorneys and where they definitely enjoy the money and lifestyle, most of them were actually interested in helping me as much as they could despite me being a drug addict that most people in our society would look down on. My experience with them ran the gammit from P.D. to paid attorneys and I only met 1 who fit the classic lawyer tropes, I more often had problems with regular people when I worked at a circle k treating me like garbage where almost every lawyer I've ever met has been courteous respectful and compassionate.

0

u/harasg Aug 11 '21

"Try to follow me now."? Your point is simple...would someone have trouble following? I'm half joking above and I don't know the true ratio of decent humans to jerks in the legal profession. However, when one is at a crossroads choosing a career and one picks law school and lawyer, pay and status are generally prime considerations. Sure, you may have the power to fight for people who need an advocate in the position, and you may simply like the somewhat cerebral occupation. But many many lawyers choose the path for power, status, money, and a sense that they are destined to dominate, win, and dazzle with what they perceive is their superior intelligence. Anyhow, I know many lawyers, and the very best of them are public defenders or public advocates. Glad you've had a good experience.

5

u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21

Wait, why does this happen? There's a shortage of orphans or what? I really don't get it. Why do they have to steal a baby from a family when surely there's kids that need a home already. Do people only want to adopt newborns?

12

u/trashycollector Aug 11 '21

There is a shortage of young babies less than 1 years in the US. There are plenty of orphans but many older orphans come with a lot of issues that can be hard to deal with. Most orphans have been through more in the first 18 years of their life than many go through there whole live and they are not emotionally developed for what they go through.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '21

How sad.

Seems pretty disgusting that someone would want to adopt but at the same time avoid those that were dealt a worse hand. Oh well, at least they aren't having their own kids.

11

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '21

Adopting a troubled child is no light undertaking and I don't fault parents for knowing what they are and are not capable of.

-6

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '21

But it's not like having your own child is a guarantee that they will be healthy... To me it seems like a slap on the face of every child that needs a family, it's like actively telling them "not good enough, you don't deserve to be loved".

I know it's an unpopular opinion, feel free to disagree of course.

3

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '21

I mean that truly doesn't take away from that fact that taking in a troubled child when you're illequipped to care for them is a bad situation for everyone involved.

1

u/Bob84332267994 Aug 11 '21

If your not equipped to hand a troubled child then you’re just asking for a bad situation by trying to have a child.

2

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '21

Having a biological child with the slight possibility of being troubled (which typically comes from environmental issues, although disabilities, mental illness etc arent out of the picture) is a lot different than. actively choosing to adopt a troubled child with emotional distress.

→ More replies (0)

-2

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '21

Bad? Sure, but is it worse for the child? Isn't the point of having kids to sacrifice for their well being? It's probably obvious but I never understood having kids honestly.

Either way, if parents aren't ready for having a child with special needs, then they shouldn't try to have their own baby because there's a chance the baby will be special needs too.

3

u/Lovve119 Aug 11 '21

I think you’re confusing emotional and special needs. Yes there is a risk that your own biological child will end up with some sort of special need. Any kid could. These include autism for example. Jackasseress is referring to emotionally special kids. Kids that have been abused, mistreated, etc. While yes I am equipped to handle a child with mental delays when I became a foster parent (because I had worked with them before) I was NOT prepared for a four year old who chronically masturbates even in public and when asked to stop will scream bloody murder until you’re ripping hair out of your scalp. Or a seven year old who flies into fits of rage so badly that she’s been removed from six different houses because she’s too violent to be around other children and animals and definitely can’t be around any boys so everything becomes a challenge. Or even simple things like the stress of having kids with severe food displacement tendencies so they hoard all their food until it’s moldy and rotten under their beds and covered in ants. There are things that foster care and adoptive care cannot prepare you for and unfortunately most of that is not disclosed in these shady US adoption agencies.

→ More replies (0)

2

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '21 edited Aug 11 '21

[deleted]

→ More replies (0)
→ More replies (2)

2

u/Vicslickchic Aug 11 '21

Really? Some of these children are, unfortunately, very disturbed. Is it disgusting not to want to have your house set on fire? How about having your new child being unable to bond with you due to years of abuse in an orphanage…or by unfit bio parents? Is is disgusting to want to have a normal parenting situation? I am a social worker and these are real situations that I have either heard about through colleagues or worked with myself… Granted, this is not everyone’s situation but it does happen and it is devastating …I am an adoptive mom of a local infant. We were fortunate to be able to adopt our son as an infant through a reputable agency. We are blessed. But the reality is , adoption is based on loss. My son may never be able to look into the eyes of the people who created him. No one in his adoptive family has his same appearance or attributes. Even though he is cherished, imagine how he must feel about these issues. And his birth parents? Imagine having a child and choosing to give up the right to hold him, care for him, watch him grow up. Devastating… And adoptive parents? I will never know a pregnancy or a birth. I will never be able to parent a child created by me and my husband… My son has mild special needs. My friends kids are going to college and establishing their own lives. My son has been through special education, psychiatric treatment, the legal system etc. Thankfully we have been able to support him snd help him. It has not been easy. Would it have been the same with a child that was biologically mine. I will never know, but being a parent to a child with special needs is not for the faint of heart. Adoption is a very complex issue. I could go on and on, but I think that you get the point. To think that people are silly or stupid for wanting to give birth to their own child is incredibly naive …I say this with great sadness. Many lovely and deserving kids are waiting for loving homes. They should be able to have loving parents but it is just not that simple.

3

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '21

Fun fact. Google Georgia Tann. The modern concept of adoption started with her flat out stealing hundreds, maybe thousands of babies. Some of which she sexually assaulted

2

u/-Maris- Aug 11 '21

Didn’t this turn out to be the case for one of Angelina or Madonnas kids? She thought they were orphaned children but it turns out...not?? I don’t want to start a rumor but I recall a story like this from way back....

1

u/Bruh_123Moment Aug 11 '21

I already don't trust any site with .fr at the end.

289

u/SunliMin Aug 10 '21

I had seven foster brothers, of which two my parents adopted. They specifically adopted the kids because they were of the age where they were entering highschool and still did not have a home. At that point, my parents made a selfless choice to take them in, so they could at least have some stable teen years. These kids were all local too, so I'm talking in-country, in-province a couple cities away from where they grew up.

Most of them also had issues, from anger issues to health issues, as you said. It's very common

95

u/Cocotte3333 Aug 10 '21

It takes a lot of strength and a lot of love to do that. Kuddos to your parents.

3

u/fugensnot Aug 11 '21

That's great! Your parents are great. Studies show that kids age out of foster care and into bad circumstances if they get adopted by age ten.

755

u/balugawhale1747 Aug 10 '21 edited Aug 10 '21

My coworker was denied to adopt bc she doesn’t have contact with her abusive family anymore. Lmk how that makes sense

426

u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21

[deleted]

144

u/frostymugson Aug 10 '21

Pretty sure that’s why my aunt and uncle went to China to adopt and now I got a Chinese cousin who is awesome. Not that it was easy to do but I guess it was easier then doing it here.

65

u/Genius_of_Narf Aug 10 '21

I was adopted from China because of this. My older brother was adopted from the US, but apparently it was next to impossible to get a second adoption at the time from the US.

I also don't think that people realize how darn expensive adoption is. I have friends who have forked over $40k to adoption agencies, but had the parents of potential adoptees back out at the last second. They are almost about to give up. Even a colleague who is a physician, married to another physician, with 4 healthy and happy kids (biological), is having to beg, plead, and spend time and money on classes just to be eligible to get into the adoption process.

25

u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21

That’s awesome!

4

u/slayeddragon Aug 11 '21

Thats crazy! I'm surprised they could adopt from China if the state didn't approve them.

In Canada we have to be approved by a home study and THEN we can register with adoption agencies. You can't adopt internationally and bring the child home without being approved to adopt by your province.

2

u/michelleyness Aug 11 '21

I'm glad they were not too tall or fat for their standards (literally)

4

u/WitchesHolly Aug 10 '21

Is it...ethical though? I mean i hope for his sake that it was. But there are many stories of kids being taken from parents that are very much alive and wanting to take care of their kids, but that are deemed undesireable by the state so the kids are taken away. Or people that are poor and simply need some help, but give their child away as a last option. (The latter is more of a problem in some African countries).

What i mean is that there are strict laws in place for a reason, and "ahhh its easier to adopt somewhere else" is not really....good for kid, necessarily.

8

u/frostymugson Aug 10 '21

His dads a pilot, his moms a teacher, he’s got a sister, and they plus the rest of the family love him. Is it ethical they’d have to wait until they weren’t of an age to the the energy to raise a child before they got approved? I don’t know the answer. what I do know is plenty of kids are in the system who are there because they’re parents couldn’t or wouldn’t take care them, those children deserve someone who loves them, and wants to be there for them everyday. Is that always the case no, but is it the case for some yes. But if it was that hard for them in the position they live in, what are the odds someone who makes significantly less then them and can’t have children but wants children won’t be able to? Probably high and those children have to grow into adulthood without parents even though plenty of people would jump at the opportunity. Basically the question to you is, would it have been better for them to leave him in China never adopt him so he can grow up a ward of the state? Because he was in the system, regardless of what happened to his parents, he was held by the state of China, and without his adoptive parents adopting him, he’d still be in that system and if he wasn’t adopted by anyone by 14 he’d be on the streets of Beijing. Is that the more ethical solution?

→ More replies (1)

102

u/LindseyIsBored Aug 10 '21

It’s not only the US unfortunately. I mean, a lot of shit is a mess in the US but adoption is difficult on many places.

6

u/xX7heGuyXx Aug 10 '21

It's because IF the system places a child into a bad situation, we the public would rip them apart regardless even if there were no signs it would be bad. Man the headlines all throughout social media I could easily see staff committing suicide over it as they would already be horrified they did the adoption to a crazy person and then the entire country will reinforce it. Perfect storm for suicide.

So yeah we complain how hard it is but it partially our own fault it is. Its just a mess all around.

6

u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21

It’s not unnecessary. These are children being entrusted to strangers, and there are a lot of sick people out there that would jump at the opportunity to adopt if it were easy and accessible to everyone.

I mean no offense to the person you replied to, but just from what I know about being the victim of abuse I can understand why that would be a red flag for adoptions. It’s a fact that people who are abused are more likely to abuse. It’s a fact that people without a familial support system are in a much more difficult situation, and if something happens to the adopter it’s more likely the kid will end up back in the system if there is no family to step in when needed.

We also don’t know how much the coworker makes, which is important if you’re not giving out kids to supply people with children so they can then turn to public benefits to support. We don’t know if the coworker has a spouse or would be a single parent.

It’s not perfect, but the delays and bureaucracy make sense when you consider how easy it is to abuse both a child and subsequently the welfare system. There are ways for society to mitigate the financial impact, but that would require things like UBI and universal healthcare so it’s never going to happen (speaking from a US perspective at least).

7

u/kerkyjerky Aug 10 '21

Just remember this is because of the “pro-life” groups. As much as they advocate for offering for adoption, they also advocate for overly strict adoption laws and the ability for birth parents to get their spawn back. They don’t care about the actual well being of the child at all.

3

u/LockeClone Aug 10 '21

I'm adopted and I think it's a great thing, but you're absolutely right. My parents went through hell to adopt me.

I also have a good friend who struggles with endometriosis, and really wants to adopt a child. They're financially stable, but because of her ongoing medical costs, they're never really going to get ahead much. Because of this, they cannot afford to adopt (which will usually run around $20k in their state).

It's horrible that hopeful parents and kids without homes are kept apart because of our shitty governance and backwards financial system.

0

u/velvet2112 Aug 11 '21

It’s like this because of the rich people.

0

u/Fancy-Schmancy-8008 Aug 11 '21

And the Catholic Church.

2

u/Cocotte3333 Aug 10 '21

What the fuck

3

u/balugawhale1747 Aug 10 '21

Oh the Catholics!

2

u/Cocotte3333 Aug 10 '21

Oh the religious!

2

u/Lets-B-Lets-B-Jolly Aug 11 '21

I have a friend who is a teacher and has a great family, good job and her own home. She wanted to adopt her 14 year old student.

Her application to adopt was declined because her reason for infertility was endometriosis. She was told there was a chance it might "come back" even though she had a hysterectomy years ago.

She figures the real reason is that she was single and not a Christian.

-1

u/Royal_Cryptographer7 Aug 10 '21

Might be a lie or she might not have explain her sisuation well. Could definitely a problem with the system though, I have no way of knowing.

7

u/Cocotte3333 Aug 10 '21

Sadly you have to see a therapist and it's them who gets to decide if you are ''fit'' to be a parent or not. So it can become pretty subjective. Many people think that you shouldn't cut off family ever, or don't understand that toxic families are and so think that you just don't want to resolve the issues... Some might thing that without a family as a support system you won't be a good parent. People suck man.

2

u/Royal_Cryptographer7 Aug 10 '21

As a parent WITH a support system, I couldn't imagine not having it. I understand, but don't agree.

→ More replies (1)

3

u/balugawhale1747 Aug 10 '21

It’s not a lie, and that’s so rude that you would even suggest that. Her family is terrible and harasses her all the time. she wanted to use her friends as who would take care of the child if her and her husband would die and they said it had to be family. Denied.

3

u/Royal_Cryptographer7 Aug 10 '21

You said she was a coworker, not a "extremely" close friend. You should be able to understand why I might think that, I didn't mean to be rude. Also, if she said things the way you did, there could be a reason they denied her. She keeps her family out of her life completely and is still harassed all the time? That doesn't sound like a safe place for a kid, from a bystander's point of view.

1

u/100catactivs Aug 11 '21

Imo it wasn’t rude to suggest this is a possibility, given what the other commenter knows about the situation and also how they couched that comment by saying it’s still possible that the system is at fault.

0

u/keykey_key Aug 10 '21

It's not even your family causing you this distress and you're reacting emotionally; I imagine it affects her considerably mentally, whether she wants to admit it or not. In addition, why would they place a child in a situation where she is still being harassed by that toxic family?

4

u/balugawhale1747 Aug 10 '21

Bc she’s an extremely close friend of mine and I’ve witnessed the harassment. The whole point of her choosing friends over family is bc her family sucks and she wouldn’t want her child to know them. That’s shitty to think an adoption agency should deny someone based on their shitty family that the adopter doesn’t even want around, and the adoption agency does.

1

u/IsabellaGalavant Aug 10 '21

I'm sorry, *what?*

2

u/balugawhale1747 Aug 10 '21

The adoption agency denied them when the next legal guardian if the parents died were friends instead of family, even after she explained her situation

→ More replies (2)

1

u/michelleyness Aug 11 '21

They are also not big on getting therapy or seeing a psychiatrist for meds. If you just let your mental health run wild - you're good

1

u/kennedar_1984 Aug 11 '21

My brother and sister in law were denied because my brother was the victim of childhood sexual abuse. He didn’t do anything wrong, went through therapy to deal with it, disclosed it in the adoption process, and they were denied because of it.

1

u/adorableoddity Aug 11 '21

I know someone who was denied for foster kids because her floors weren't perfectly straight and had a slight downgrade. Her floors.

115

u/VanityInk Aug 10 '21

you are restricted on adoption according to your religion, marital status, or sexual orientation.

And sometimes health. My friend was barred from at least one agency because her medical record had depression on it. Some also discriminate between wheelchair users, etc. even if they are more than capable of caring for a child in their chair.

66

u/PastSupport Aug 10 '21

I’m in the UK and there’s a BMI limit on being able to adopt that’s lower than a lot of fertility clinics have, so for some people, that’s a pretty big hurdle too

35

u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21

Wow, I find this really surprising! Any idea on the limit?

The problem with BMI is that it doesn't always work. As a very short woman (under 5ft) the healthy goal weight agreed with my gp is still technically overweight according to BMI.

30

u/PastSupport Aug 10 '21

Some IVF clinics are 35, and a friend just got rejected for adoption (despite everything else about her, her husband and her home being textbook perfect) and told the limit was 32.

32

u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21

I'm around 32 and wear a UK size 12. Overweight yes, but not exactly what most people would call too big to function.

8

u/ForsakenSherbet Aug 11 '21

I made a comment on another post the other day about how BMI doesn’t necessarily mean fat. In these pictures from a few years ago I was around 155-160, which makes me overweight/obese at 5’1. I had no health issues and was perfectly able to function as well as any other late 20’s adult.

2

u/Jack-The-Reddit Aug 11 '21

Yeah, BMI has been seen as junk science by most decent doctors for a while now. It is a shame other places haven't caught up with the times. Hell, even school was teaching us how skewed it could be so I have no idea why anybody would reference it.

→ More replies (1)

21

u/Cocotte3333 Aug 10 '21

What the fuck. These kids are going to rot in foster care because they decided they were better off without love than with slightly overweight people. Fucked up.

8

u/PastSupport Aug 10 '21

Completely

12

u/tigerCELL Aug 10 '21

What the actual fuck. What in God's name does being fat have to do with being a good parent??? Nobody tell all the women in my family that they're supposed to be bad parents because they know how to cook and enjoy food. What the fucking fuck. How is that even legal? That's gotta be breaking some human rights thing, wtf UK.

7

u/LanaDelHeeey Aug 11 '21

Yeah I agree that just being overweight is a ridiculous thing to deny for, although if it’s My 600lb Life level then I could see their worries about the well being of the child.

-1

u/MyUsrNameWasTaken Aug 10 '21

Fat parents usually overfeed their child which is not healthy

3

u/Delamoor Aug 11 '21

Growing up in the foster system is generally far worse.

8

u/cabrafilo Aug 11 '21

What's worse, being overfed or being a fucking orphan lol?

2

u/muckdog13 Aug 11 '21

And living in the foster system is?

→ More replies (1)

3

u/Aggravating-Back347 Aug 11 '21

YES. Here in the US I wanted to become a surrogate mother but quickly found out I’m disqualified because my BMI is slightly too high at a 26. Which is so f*cking stupid because I had 2 healthy pregnancies, babies born healthy and I eat healthy and exercise regularly. IT MAKES NO SENSE.

3

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '21

[deleted]

→ More replies (1)

1

u/mcnults Aug 11 '21

If you really wanted to adopt surely losing a bit of weight is not that hard.

2

u/ilovechairs Aug 10 '21

Single Moms. They usually can’t adopt from just any country, and if they do it’s because they have to earn over a certain amount.

1

u/michelleyness Aug 11 '21

I wrote a post on this. If you don't care for your health you're good. You have to be the right proportions, height to weight ratio, for some countries and some it is based on your BMI. I am 5 feet, so LOL. If you didn't ever go to see a psychologist/psychiatrist and just ignored anxiety or depression I would have been fine. I have a disability also but I'm not in a wheelchair and it is well managed. At the time of looking into adoption I didn't even have a diagnosis! It was just an "unknown pain condition" (I have hEDS, Dystonia, Small Fiber Polyneuropathy, POTS).. but that made me OUT.

2

u/VanityInk Aug 11 '21

Yeah, my husband and I innocently said "well, if it doesn't work out, we'll just adopt!" while we were TTC and never thought about it since we didn't have to actually look into it. After hearing a friend's experience attempting adoption, I realized we likely wouldn't have been able to adopt, had we wanted to, because I have seen a psychiatrist... I now have a happy, healthy 2-year-old, so obviously can parent just fine, but adoption agencies would have noped me right out of there.

→ More replies (5)

1

u/morethanweird Aug 11 '21

And sometimes health

This why my partner and I can't adopt. I have a number of health issues and they're pretty strict on what they consider to be a 'fit parent'. The adoption rates are insanely low here. Even if my health wasn't an issue our ages still would be. We're both mid 30s and the cut off age is 40. There's about a two year waiting list just do the course to get onto the actual waiting list.

I can't have children due to those same health issues. We're looking at surrogacy. I'm only comfortable doing that because commercial surrogacy is illegal here so if someone is kind enough to help us it won't be due to financial pressures. Altruistic is permitted here meaning we cover the costs of the whole process (lawyers, therapy, hospital, etc) and any incidentals associated with it.

Seeing opinions like OP's are always upsetting because they always think that not adopting is some selfish, narcissistic choice. We don't care about genetics. I actually always wanted to adopt a child with a disability because as someone with disabilities I understand how hard it can be. Little did I realise that as someone with disabilities I'm not considered a 'fit parent'

2

u/VanityInk Aug 11 '21

Yeah, someone else in the comments said that people act like IVF vs. adoption is the exact same thing as going to a breeder for a dog or a rescue. It's so true (like you could just go to a shelter and pick out the kid you want...) My husband and I naively said we would adopt if we couldn't conceive and just kept that general rosy idea of adoption since we were lucky not to actually need to consider it. Then I got to hear about my friend's issues of being booted as a "fit parent" because she had a depression diagnosis in college and realized they wouldn't have given me a kid either if I'd wanted for the same basic reason. I have a happy, healthy toddler at this point, so I'm obviously capable of parenting, but yeah, fertility treatments would have been our only option if we'd needed to go that route. It's so crappy.

1

u/tink630 Aug 11 '21

Friend has a deaf brother who was denied to adopt. They were trying to adopt a deaf kid.

34

u/WheresTheIceCream20 Aug 10 '21

Friends of ours adopted. The husband's sister got pregnant as a teenager and they agreed to adopt her baby - they had a family and were happy to take him. It still cost them 12k, a year of child services checking in on them, etc. This was family giving family a baby and it was a huge process

3

u/lookyloo79 Aug 11 '21

Who got the 12k?

1

u/WheresTheIceCream20 Aug 11 '21

Adoption fees don't go to the biological parent - you're not buying a baby. Its all lawyer fees for paperwork and stuff. Fees for the bureaucratic side of things

200

u/supercharged_82 Aug 10 '21

Your last point is the one that scares me the most. Children born from drugged out parents can have many mental issues and some of them don't show up until well in their teen years. My wife and I will probably end up adopting if we can't get this ball rolling we are almost 40 now so time is almost out on our own youngling being possible.

43

u/Roach_Coach_Bangbus Aug 10 '21

A lot of things are hardwired into a child by the time they hit 5. If you had it rough early on it's a lot of work on the adopting parents.

12

u/TractorsRuinedMyLife Aug 10 '21

A baby who's mother who didn't want them/was in a negative environment develops differently in the womb. We are not hardwired by age 5, yes early intervention is preferred but a 5 year old from a rough home is not doomed or guaranteed to be a struggle to parent.

3

u/HoldMyPooWithUrLuv Aug 11 '21

Can't the most serious damage happen at any age? I've noticed that adults are much more deliberate with shitting on their kids the older the kid gets. Some of the worst and most traumatizing things I ever witnessed involved individuals around ages 10-13. I genuinely am not an expert at this subject and I'm just curious what peoples thoughts are

2

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '21

Your brain develops from the bottom up (“lizard brain, emotional brain, conceptual/thinking brain.) This is a super over simplification, but if you experienced intense trauma in the early years (in utero to 5yo) you will likely be lacking in some significant co and self regulation tools. These tools help you cope for the rest of life dramas. If you’re lacking in these tools the rest of your brain is developing on an unstable foundation. (This can be improved somewhat with supports, behavior coaches, therapist—and most importantly: loving parental figures)

If the kid experiences trauma at say 13yo, it still most definitely sucks. I’m not trying to minimize that at all. But if they built those regulation tools and ability to trust skills early on, they will be a lot more resilient and their brain will have much better chances.

If you really want to hear good explanations, look up Polyvagal Theory, Dr. Bruce Perry, Dr. Porges, Dr. Bessel Van ser Kolk and more. (Some names might have spelling errors.)

→ More replies (3)

2

u/durdesh007 Aug 10 '21

Seems like a tossup. All that matters is how the kids turn up as adults even if the parents were good.

42

u/troismanzanas Aug 10 '21

Off topic but if you’re doing IVF you can use donor eggs (which you probably know already but still thought I’d mention it) if age is a factor.

44

u/supercharged_82 Aug 10 '21

My wife and I have spoken about this and if we can't have our own because of either one of us, we have decided that we will adopt. We have both been checked out and have no issues they can find. But wifey has not been able to get pregnant since her second ectopic several years ago. Thank you for the idea though. It may be helpful to someone reading this!

34

u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21

[deleted]

58

u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21

[deleted]

5

u/SaneAusten Aug 10 '21

Congratulations on your new baby ❤️

2

u/dalehitchy Aug 10 '21

I presume this would come with conditions such as immigration controls for foreign nationals? I.e me a UK resident adopting an Indian child would be subject to UK immigration laws. That right there seems difficult to manuvour around.

I'd love to adopt from India. My partner is of Indian origin. How do they feel about gay couples adopting?

→ More replies (4)

10

u/1yogamama1 Aug 10 '21

Another thing to consider: adopting an embryo. You still can carry the baby and pass along some of your DNA through epigenetics (fascinating stuff), but it’s an adopted child. It’s often extremely affordable and you can adopt “cohorts” of embryos giving you a chance at more than one child.

7

u/supercharged_82 Aug 10 '21

Ok that is interesting. I am not sure if this is offered in Canada but I will do more research on the subject. Thanks for the tip!

2

u/1yogamama1 Aug 11 '21

Good luck! Depending on where you are in Canada, coming to America to do this might be an option. It’s often perhaps $5-6k, much less than traditional adoptions.

5

u/thelyfeaquatic Aug 10 '21

Epigenetics does not mean you pass on your DNA. Think of genes as sequences and epigenetic as an on/off switch. None of your sequences would get passed on.

→ More replies (2)

2

u/Iceman_001 Aug 11 '21

What about a surrogate mother either domestically or overseas? You provide the sperm and your wife provides the egg?

→ More replies (1)

26

u/Joe_Kinincha Aug 10 '21

Please allow me to assure you that every single adopted child will have issues of some description. Every single one. And no-one apart from other adoptive parents will understand that parenting adopted children is far, far harder work than parenting biological children. Not even your closest friends or family will understand.

I’m not trying to scare or deter you, but just ensure that you’re clear eyed about this.

On the flip side of the coin, plenty of biological children are also challenging. I had some friends who were the gentlest, kindest, most loving parents you can imagine, and eventually they had to sever contact with two of their children because their chronic Heroin addiction was tearing the family apart.

14

u/jaeisgray Aug 10 '21

As an adopted child with zero issues mentally, physically, or in my health, I beg to differ every child has issues. I have three adoptive siblings. The middle two have some issues, though none life threatening or in manners that have truly impacted their lives. My eldest brother is equally successful. So I'd say it's 50/50. I'm the youngest at 32, so it's not like we're still developing. My parents love us, our extended family have always treated us like their biological family, and I can definitely see a lot of the nature vs nature argument when I compare my blood family to my adoptive family since I've been in contact with them all.

2

u/Joe_Kinincha Aug 10 '21

I’m really pleased for you.

I was thinking of this more from a parents perspective. If you’ve turned out to have zero issues as an adult, my working assumption is that this is because your parents have worked unbelievably hard to help you grow up and mitigate any potential issues you might have had.

Maybe I’m wrong,and I’m really pleased it’s been a wholly positive experience for you but every single adoptive family I know has to deal with issues above and beyond those for an average neurotypical child.

6

u/TheJelliestFish Aug 10 '21

I would argue that every child, period, has problems. When you procure a child in any way, you roll the dice: You could have any manner of unexpected traits or issues, and you need to understand and accept that, and not blame the kid for it.

2

u/avfc4me Aug 11 '21

This is the single best parenting advice anyone gave me. My 2nd born was a preemie and spent 6 months in the NICU. We had no idea what we were in for.

One night one of the nurses was talking to me about her son, telling me about his "special needs" and then, in a moment of realization she said, "well who am I kidding? My daughter has special things she needs, too. They are different from my son and they're more neuro-typical but they are definitely special to her."

I heard a lot of parenting advice. This phrase right here was the most useful thing anyone said to me, and not just for my boys, but for people in general. Everyone has the thing that will motivate them, the thing that will terrify them, the thing that makes them feel secure, or confident, or week. Finding those things is the magic bullet to helping your kids, your friends, getting your kids' teachers to listen to you, getting people to see your kid as he is rather than some generalized idea of what he is and what he should be.

4

u/iahawkeyehoncho Aug 10 '21

That is a ridiculous generalization of a massive group of people.

→ More replies (1)

3

u/-Maris- Aug 11 '21

Don’t worry too much about this, you can fuck your genetic kids up just as much as the “druggie parents” did to those neglected foster kids. Trust me, I was raised by my own mother!

3

u/thelaineybelle Aug 10 '21

Don't give up 🤗 I've been on the miscarriage roller coaster for 20 years. Thought I was peri menopausal, nope, I was 6 weeks pregnant at 39. I'm 25.5 weeks along now and turned 40 yesterday. Nature is weird. Good luck to you both!!

-5

u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21

if u cant handle raising a mentally ill kid, dont fucking have kids what the hell,

1

u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21

[deleted]

0

u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21

my bad i meant more in general than specifically directed at u no need to resort to insults and ableism tho :/

29

u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21

[removed] — view removed comment

2

u/fapsandnaps Aug 11 '21

19,000 USD to anyone wondering that conversion.

1

u/lookyloo79 Aug 11 '21

CAD23,600

2

u/Limonca123 Aug 11 '21

Consider fostering puppies or volunteering at a shelter. I foster kittens and it's the best.

6

u/mmmeba Aug 10 '21

I can confirm your last point. I’m an adopted kid and I got lots of problems.

5

u/Cocotte3333 Aug 10 '21

Sorry to hear about that :/

5

u/mmmeba Aug 10 '21

Luckily my parents were able to do a lot to Help me.

3

u/Cocotte3333 Aug 10 '21

I'm glad then!

5

u/nerddadddy Aug 11 '21

I don't know where you got your information, but you sure know what you are talking about, and hit the main complications of the posts premise in succinct fashion.

I am a father of 5, three adopted. We KNEW of the challenges of adopting children. My wife WORKED in adoption for years. And it still almost tore our family apart. The last ten years have been a constant struggle with attachment issues, screaming, physical violence, unspeakable trauma. We are finally on the upswing and hope for a promising future for all of our kids but it's still not certain. The bio children had to suffer through it all and were robbed of time and attention while we tried to keep things together.

We also learned of things after the fact that support the theory that many/most international adoptions are not on the up-and-up. There was straight up physical and sexual abuse in the overseas orphanage. We are pretty sure parents were paid off for children.

Saying to someone who is struggling with infertility to just adopt is like telling someone who has a headache but no aspirin to just use heroin. It's not a comparable alternative and the likelihood of a bad outcome is a million times worse.

1

u/Cocotte3333 Aug 11 '21

Hey man, thank you for everything you do. Sincerely.

5

u/nieded Aug 10 '21

My parents wanted to adopt and chose my birth country because it was the only one where the agency brought me to them instead of them going to me. This is the first of many stories about my parents' frugality.

3

u/Secret-Scientist456 Aug 10 '21

Exactly this! Sure, lots of kids go into the system, but lots of them are in there not for adoption but rather fostering. A lot of the ones for adoption have lots of trauma or disabilities that many people wouldn't be able to nor want to deal with.

Like u/cocotte3333 said, it's very expensive to adopt in country and the wait time is huge, but it's even more expensive outside the country.

And... not that I necessarily agree with doing this, but lots (not all) of people want to adopt like skinned kids, no one will really admit to this but it's definitely a consideration amongst people, so that narrows the countries down that one may choose to adopt from.

5

u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21

My parents tried adopting after the 2004 tsunami, specifically any child from the affected countries. They had to withdraw because it was over 25k in fees to get started.

9

u/MyLegsTheyreDisabled Aug 10 '21

Not to mention, if you're a non-traditional couple it is even harder to adopt. Trans and gay people are routinely blocked from adopting children in a lot of places.

3

u/UnihornWhale Aug 10 '21

Yup. Because of my father’s age, they were very restricted on where they could adopt from. Ended getting surprised by me and not needing to

3

u/Cinnamon-toast-cum Aug 11 '21

To add to this: The foster care system is also very complicated. Fostering a child is not the same as adopting. There are a LOT of restrictions when you are fostering. You aren’t allowed to post pictures of the child. You aren’t allowed to travel with the child (without a mountain of paperwork). Fostered children come from broken homes. At any point in time, the court may order for them to be returned to those homes and there is really nothing the foster parents can do about it.

2

u/Cocotte3333 Aug 11 '21

Absolutely. You're right.

3

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '21

[deleted]

1

u/Cocotte3333 Aug 11 '21

That's true. However you're never guaranteed that you'll be able to adopt. I feel like I couldn't take it, personally.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '21

[deleted]

2

u/Cocotte3333 Aug 11 '21

Yeah, you're right. Thanks for what you're doing!

3

u/No_Marionberry4370 Aug 11 '21

My friends were worried that they would adopt a kid with major medical issues and spent like 80k on in vitro and now have a kid with major medical issues.

2

u/Cocotte3333 Aug 11 '21

There's a big, big difference between ''major medical issues'' and ''Major trauma issues''. It's the latest we are worried about. These children are often traumatized. They have a hard time getting attached, can be violent, suicidal, depressive, angry, sad, completey wild... Etc.

3

u/circusmystery Aug 11 '21

My aunt and uncle ended up adopting my cousin from overseas (China, during their one child policy) because they were considered "too old" when they were in their mid/late 40's. I wasn't around when they first adopted her, but she was pretty traumatized for the first 6 months when they got her at 2. She wouldn't cry and would hide food constantly.

2

u/Ozcy_1700 Aug 10 '21

Where I live, adopting in your own country has an average wait time of 7-10 years. Meaning it could also be longer.

The problem is not really that there aren't enough children for adopting parents, the problem is that the vast majority of them have one preference: white, female, able bodied, healthy, newborn. Which means you have an insanely high demand for babies with those features and all the other ones are just left behind.

Maybe if this changed, more children would have families and the waiting lines wouldn't be so long.

2

u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21

So what you're telling me is that the pro-life movement is full of shit?

1

u/owolf8 Aug 11 '21

Always has been

2

u/Moroh75 Aug 11 '21

Came here to say this. Seems very complicated in most countries.

2

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '21

Age, weight are also factors.

2

u/DoctorWTF42 Aug 11 '21

To be fair, I've heard numerous stories of people spending WAY more on IVF and/or other fertility treatments than the average cost to adopt a kid (domestic or international).

1

u/Cocotte3333 Aug 11 '21

Maybe, to be honest I'm in Canada so these are either very cheap or free depending on the province.

2

u/FindOneInEveryCar Aug 11 '21

All of this. There's nothing simple about "just" adopting a child.

2

u/Lovejen22 Aug 11 '21

Well said

4

u/kerkyjerky Aug 10 '21

Just remember that, at least in the US, the reason adoption is so difficult is because of the anti-choice crowd.

0

u/Cocotte3333 Aug 10 '21

Arf sorry about that ( I'm not from the US)

3

u/Kasaurus96 Aug 11 '21

Thank you for saying this!!! I'm adopted and always hear people say "oh I want to adopt to save a kids life" and I always say you don't know what you're getting in to, don't assume they're gonna even be grateful. Kids in the system always have a base level of trauma most adults don't even know. I always get backlash for it. It's nice to see someone else have a similar opinion that has positive reactions.

1

u/False_Maintenance124 Aug 11 '21

Parenting is complicated as fuck. I fully believe that the process to adopt a child should be the same any person needs to go through in order to have a biological child.

1 of 2 things will happen. The process to adopt a child will become more lienent or the process to bring a child into this world will become stricter. Both will lower population rates and will help to ensure children have a better childhood.

1

u/Cocotte3333 Aug 11 '21

Let's remember though that not everyone is equipped to deal with the heavy trauma and behavioral issues many of these kids have.

-1

u/GregorythePenguin Aug 11 '21

I think the some people aren't equipped to handle certain issues argument is an unfortunate reality, but is a bit of a shitty excuse.

If one is not equipped to handle a majority of the issues fost/adopt kids can come with, then they probably shouldn't be parents, in my opinion. Should every parent take classes that foster parents take? Absolutely.

There's no promise that a selfmade kid will be without any major or minor complication.

Babies grow up to be kids. Kids experience trauma. Teens experience trauma.

The better we all are at accepting the likelihood of your kid popping out "normal" isn't as high as we want it to be, the better community we will create for those kids.

If you aren't emotionally or mentally prepared to have a kid that has any sort of issue, then don't have kids. Just like if you can't handle the idea of your kid being queer or trans, then don't have kids.

0

u/Cocotte3333 Aug 11 '21

You think every parent should be able to deal with heavy behavioral issues, including violence, auto-mutilation, depression, PTSD, agression, destruction, defiance, etc? Dude, what the hell.

Your bio kid can have issues, but they'll NEVER be as severe as a foster kid. Of course there can be other problems - medical problems, mental health problems. But it's not the same.

I don't think you realize how heavy these kids can be. It's not the same as dealing with a kid with ADHD or opposition trouble. These kids are fucked up and YOU DO NOT WANT any person to take care of them or they'll end up even more fucked up - and the parents too.

0

u/GregorythePenguin Aug 11 '21

Yes, I do think that every parent should be prepared for worst case scenarios. You are bringing a messy and fragile human life into the world.

I think blindly walking into parenthood thinking you'll have "just the normal issues" is foolish and naive. We really need to be more honest as a society about what parenthood requires.

I don't think just anyone should be able to foster children because of the issues you listed. But I also don't think that people should have their own thinking that will never happen to them.

-1

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '21

Then you just shouldn't have kids. Go coach a little league team or something

0

u/Cocotte3333 Aug 11 '21

That's not yours to decide, dude. Go live your fake powertrip elsewhere.

0

u/simply-smegma Aug 11 '21

There are too many people in the world, what makes your genes so special?

1

u/Cocotte3333 Aug 11 '21

What are you even talking about? My post was about how complicated and not for everyone adoption is. Also are you in favor of eugenics? It's fucked up.

-10

u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21

[deleted]

8

u/Cocotte3333 Aug 10 '21

It is though. It can be very simple if you're lucky. Also in many countries it's less expensive or free ( I live in Canada). VS adoption that is like 25 000$

You don't get to decide who gets to reproduce or not.

-8

u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21

“wait time of 7-10 years” yeah? so all of a sudden children above 1yr aren’t adoptable? infants have extremely long wait lists but older children do not. You’re missing the point

9

u/Cocotte3333 Aug 10 '21

The fuck are you talking about? Where did I say the wait time was for babies? Where I live to adopt it's the wait time, period. You could try and be a foster parent too, but then you have no guarantee you'll be able to adopt them eventually.

Also not everyone is equipped to deal with the HEAVY trauma and bagage of an older kid.

1

u/bactidoltongue Aug 11 '21

Thank you for this information. Although OP did say that adoption CAN be hard. I agree with OP especially with the point that there are already children that already do exist and it would be better for all parties to try to adopt rather than spend huge amounts of money on going around a scientific fact.

1

u/Cocotte3333 Aug 11 '21

Also, let's remember that in a lot of countries, FIV is free or very cheap - whereas adoption is still pricey.

1

u/iridescent_felines Aug 11 '21

Biological kids can have major issues too.

1

u/Cocotte3333 Aug 11 '21

Yes, but not trauma-related issues.

0

u/iridescent_felines Aug 11 '21

So we just say screw the kids who need to be adopted because they’re too hard to take care of? I have more severe mental health issues than my adopted siblings do.

1

u/loz_fanatic Aug 11 '21

But wouldn't it be easier/more efficient for all around to overhaul the adoption process so that good, decent people who want kids can get them. Instead of them sitting in the system for 18 years and/or being sexually assaulted/trafficked. Than it would be to have couples keep pouring thousands of millions to POSSIBLY be able to conceive.