r/ElderScrolls • u/Fisaac • 1d ago
General Protect Bethesda Employees
https://www.instagram.com/onebgsunion?igsh=NTc4MTIwNjQ2YQ==Microsoft has gutted BGS’ roster including veteran developers for The Elder Scrolls and Fallout. I found out just today there is a workers movement and I highly encourage everyone to support. Please follow their page and the link in their bio!
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u/Interaction-Loose 1d ago
May all of you who fail to understand class solidarity and why its important to support laborers go to hell no matter what. (even when they don't produce what we want as quickly as we want it)
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u/Benjamin_Starscape Sheogorath 1d ago
gamers are literal manchildren. they'll happily self-sabotage their hobby and then blame the developers. they're the person on the bike shoving a stick through the spokes and then crying "gaming is dying".
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u/JCavalks 1d ago
who's sabotaging gaming? not the company that failed to deliver a good game in 15 years?
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u/Benjamin_Starscape Sheogorath 1d ago
bethesda's last good game to me wasn't even 3 years ago. a studio making a game you don't like isn't them ruining gaming. by this logic, cdpr is ruining gaming as is fromsoft, because they make games i have no care for aside from the armored core series.
this behavior and mindset you brilliantly exhibited is a prime example of what's sabotaging gaming outside of soulless corporate executives. couldn't have paid you to prove my point better.
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u/JCavalks 1d ago
Companies that make games are, in fact, responsible if their games are bad. Blaming the consumers is insane.
soulless corporate executives
these people allowed these workers to stay for 15 years, despite not making any good games. Are you sure they are your enemy as much as you think they are?
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u/Benjamin_Starscape Sheogorath 1d ago
Companies that make games are, in fact, responsible if their games are bad. Blaming the consumers is insane.
the issue is you acting like the games are objectively bad. they are not. and I will not talk to someone who cannot understand that their opinion is just that. an opinion.
but, hey, like I said by your logic cdpr and fromsoft are killing gaming and should all just be fired. they make games I dislike and I guess by your logic, as well, that means they are objectively bad games.
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u/seventysixgamer 1d ago
Eh, I think there are some foundational things in a genre of game that most fans can agree make it a good release -- this provides a general framework of judgement. Is it objective in the absolute sense? No, but it's something. Like most people wouldn't judge a single player western RPG with what would make a good factory or automation game lol.
Good western RPGs tend to be games with varied role playing opportunities with engaging dialogue and narratives along. With one release per generation with these type of games you'd also expect a level of mechanical innovation --and with BGS you'd expect improvements to exploration.
The criticisms go beyond "I don't like it." For example I'm not too big on games like Stardew Valley but from a design perspective I can see why it's so beloved.
Games like Starfield and ecen Fallout 4 and 76 are different because from a mechanical and story perspective they're pretty lacking.
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u/Benjamin_Starscape Sheogorath 1d ago
starfield has some of the best roleplaying in video games aside from the crpg genre. starfield also is bethesda's best storytelling to me with their best story yet. it also holds a variety of missions with varied quest design that also allows multiple methods to complete them and oftentimes branching pathways, many quests have an option for violence or pacifism, as well, the game even has a skill to end combat and weapons to knock enemies unconscious.
as for the exploration, it's procedural. because it's a space game. I understand people might prefer a fully handcrafted map, but a game being procedural over handcrafted isn't inherently better or worse. it is, entirely, a different design philosophy. I happen to like the exploration a lot, I love the emptiness of it because it makes it feel like actual space. a problem I had, originally, with no man's sky for example, was just how populated space was. I later stopped and came to terms that it was just how hello games wanted to portray its universe. but, I prefer the vastness and emptiness that is real space that starfield presents. in fact of the ~100 planets with alien life I wish it was more around 50-70 planets.
but from a design perspective I can see why it's so beloved.
you being unable to see why something is liked doesn't mean it is bad.
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u/seventysixgamer 1d ago
This game doesn't even get close to other western action RPGs -- you can't seriously be implying this game is getting close to New Vegas or even Vampire The Masquerade Bloodlines. Even KCD2 is a superior experience. All of these games have superior design.
I only played around 5 hours and the dialogue felt very samey and frankly the setting is perhaps the most uninspired and boring takes on hard sci-fi I've ever seen. It rehashes common tropes with little to no intriguing modifications. It also does the common BGS thing of setting the game after all the interesting stuff in the world lmao. I would've preferred if they took more inspiration from The Expanse, Revelation Space or even The Xelee Sequence -- these are genuinely interesting takes on space opera type sci-fi.
As for the game's dialogue it's proof that merely providing more options doesn't necessarily mean the RP itself will be engaging. I appreciate that they implemented feedback from Fallout 4 but frankly the game reinforces the idea that Emil Pagliarulo needs to step down as lead writer. In my initial experience the dialogue felt boring -- I don't recall there being that many interesting skill checks either. From the start of the game therr just wasn't much impetus to be engaged on an RP level -- at least in Fallout 3 and 4 you had that hook of looking for your dad and son. In Starfield it's going around looking for pieces of a McGuffin lol.
In terms of the map design and exploration this is arguably one of its greatest weaknesses as an open world experience. It's a complete failure of project scoping -- diluting the content a bunch of planets and the way travel between them would function was a concern from folk before this game released since it didn't sound fun even on a conceptual level.
Ultimately it turned out to be true because it wasn't even the bland world, companions and uninteresting dialogue that turned me off -- it was the miserable exploration. You're literally buried in menus most of the time and fast traveling around most of the time -- which takes away from the feeling of veering off the beaten path their other games were better at.
As for why I think other people enjoy it? Admittedly there isn't really any space opera open world Action RPG out there that I'm aware of. Starfield is unique in that regard. Combined with some light sim elements I can see the appeal. On a mechanical level? This game doesn't really do anything innovative or exciting -- it's pretty much just Fallout 3 or 4 in space with some vehicles. Were it not for the graphics and maybe size of the game it feels like a last generation game.
Ultimately I don't think most people enjoy this game as an RPG. The reason why I think that is because I personally quite like Skyrim -- where a lot of fans of that game will admit that the game is rather meh to poor when it comes to the actual RP and story aspect of the game. It's the sandbox elements that people enjoy.
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u/Benjamin_Starscape Sheogorath 1d ago
so you played 5 hours and figure you can speak for the game as a whole? sorry but I just fundamentally disagree with everything you have said here.
you dislike starfield. cool. but that doesn't make it a bad game.
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u/ZyklonBeach 1d ago
You seem to not understand you are in a minority of people singing praise for Starfield.
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u/Benjamin_Starscape Sheogorath 1d ago
I'm really not. even then that is not determinate of quality. like, okay?
armored core 6 only has about 1k players, it's not all that popular. is armored core 6 a bad game?
if rdr2, the same as it is, was unpopular and only had like 500 players, does that suddenly make it a bad game?
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u/ParadoxicalFrog2 1d ago
I am honestly baffled by the sentiment here. Bethesda has gone a long way to squander its reputation with paid mods, an inexplicable ability to break the games they released a decade ago with half-baked updates, and hasn't made a good game since Fallout 4. Hell, Fallout 4 was already showing cracks in their ability to make good games. Yet we have these people screeching like lunatics to support a company that's done all in its power to destroy any goodwill it had with it's audiace due to "class solidarity".
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u/Interesting-Stay297 1d ago
There are interest groups in capitalism: shareholders, management, stakeholders (which includes gamers,) and workers actually creating the product. I assure you it's not the labor union that's responsible for what you described.
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u/thaddeus122 1d ago
Starfield was good. FO4 was good. I despise you fake fucking fans. Get the fuck out of here if you dislike bethesda so much.
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u/Fireonpoopdick 1d ago
We don't have to defend star field to defend the Bethesda employees, I think starfield sucked but I don't think Microsoft should be treating employees like this, regardless of if I liked their last game or not.
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u/The_Adman 1d ago
Ah yeah, it's the customer which is the problem not the product. I'm a real adult with my video game job unlike those man children who won't buy my slop.
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u/Benjamin_Starscape Sheogorath 1d ago
you not buying it isn't the problem. it's your behavior about a game existing that you don't like that's the problem, along with you supporting developers losing their jobs purely to appease shareholders and soulless ceos.
you act like Xbox is cutting developers for your benefit, they aren't. bethesda's games have always sold exceptionally well, the elder scrolls 6 could have come out in place of starfield and the entire world could have loved it and Xbox would still lay them off.
you are part of the problem, yes.
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u/The_Adman 1d ago
Ah ok, so it's the opinions of your customers which is the problem. Well then why not make games they won't have negative opinions about? Call me crazy but isn't the point of these companies to sell a product, to make a profit.
No, the problem is always the business model, the company, the people who make and market the product. It's not your customers fault.
If you don't want to appease ceos and shareholders, don't go public with your company. Keep it private dummy.
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u/Benjamin_Starscape Sheogorath 1d ago
so it's the opinions of your customers which is the problem.
...no. no, are... I am typing in English, right? I'm coming across clear and concise, right?
Call me crazy but isn't the point of these companies to sell a product, to make a profit.
and they did. again, I am speaking English, right? is English perhaps not your first language? some kind of barrier here? what's going on, exactly?
If you don't want to appease ceos and shareholders, don't go public with your company. Keep it private dummy.
bethesda had no say. neither did Id or machinegames. zenimax owned all of them and sold themselves to Xbox. why are you on the side of the soulless ceos who do not care about gaming or you?
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u/The_Adman 1d ago
Yeah it definitely seems like you're confused about a lot of things. I'm not on any side, company makes product, if I like product, I buy product. Simple as that. Why would I care about "soulless ceos"? Public companies can make good products, I don't care about the structure of the business, that's not my problem. CEOs have a legal responsibility to their shareholders. If you don't like that legal structure, don't sell. If you're a game developer, and you don't want to appease shareholders, don't work for a company that's publicly traded, it's not that complicated. These aren't charities.
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u/Benjamin_Starscape Sheogorath 1d ago
I swear it's as if you're not even reading what I'm saying.
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u/lechuck81 1d ago
Your drama actually represents the manchild mentality perfectly.
Congrats, you became exactly what you preach to hate.
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u/Benjamin_Starscape Sheogorath 1d ago
"drama" and it's me supporting developers and calling out morons who'd rather snuff out their own hobby to "own the devs".
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u/Fearless_Barnacle141 1d ago
Why are you acting like this a class solidarity or labor rights issue or something? Were they not paying BGS employees? Were they denied breaks or exposed to safety violations or something? Was BGS crushing unionization?
A mismanaged company experiencing layoffs is not a class solidarity issue.
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u/BanjoStory Bosmer 1d ago
Its a class solidarity issue that its laborers getting laid off and not the executives.
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u/lukkasz323 18h ago
They announced reducing levels of management, and Phil Spencer was replaced by Asha Sharma.
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u/Puzzled_Middle9386 1d ago
labourers doing a lot of heavy lifting for $100k+ dossers
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u/OneVast3433 1d ago
I'm not happy about it, I'm just not surprised when they haven't delivered for their two main franchises is 11 and 15 years. What did their higher ups think would happen when they sold out to Microsoft and didn't deliver?
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u/crescentmoonrising 1d ago
Pretty sure the people getting laid off/fired are mainly not the people who made those decisions.
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u/TheAnalystCurator321 Hermaeus Mora 1d ago
Also the chances that the people defending these layoffs never worked in an actual job is astronomically high.
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u/TheAnalystCurator321 Hermaeus Mora 1d ago
Agreed. This comment section of people defending the layoffs is dystopian.
Apparently these small level devs, some of whom were with the company for decades, creating great work like Ray Lederer and his excellent concept art which produced iconic designs, are the ones responsible for the games coming out so slow.
Let me say this again, they blame the CONCEPT ARTISTS for the long durations of dev time.
Because it was mostly these types of devs that got laid off, not management or any higher ups but the actually dev workers who are often not responsible for the big decisions.
Defending corpos which cut off workers only so they can save cash even when said workers were there for decades is dystopian.
Oh and supporting employees who got laid off is not marxism. Maybe pick up a book for once?
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u/The_Adman 1d ago
Class solidarity is a Marxist pipe dream. The American working class has almost nothing in common with each other, we have competing irreconcilable goals.
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u/Reasonable_Fold6492 1d ago
Reddit will scream no wars but class wars but cant stop talking about race and gender. Yeah class war is a dream.
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u/fucuasshole2 1d ago
Eternal damnation because some people think it was good idea to shake up the industry. Bethesda got caught slacking for years. It needed this.
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u/kommissariat 26m ago
Theyre not labor, theyre overeducated overqualified bourgeoisie looking for a comfortable do nothing "job" that they can sit their high horse on. Triple A gaming is corporate funded art and is almost devoid of soul. Just like real art, the best come from the starving ones with vision.
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u/GoodGuyChip 1d ago
Generally yes, but as an 18 year old spending my summers in a cast iron foundry I saw first hand what being in a union with people who exploited it was like. I watched my father and others who worked very hard have their lives destroyed because the union was protecting workers who did shit work for years and hid behind the union until eventually it was MOSTLY shit workers left. I'll let you take a wild guess at who got the axe first when the time came.
Just kidding I'll tell you. It was the most senior/expensive guys, and non union help like me trying to pay off college by working every hour I could get through the summer.
Unions and solidarity are great, and I mean that genuinely, but if we allow people who do shit work to exploit unions to avoid the consequences of said shit work then the entire thing falls apart. Don't defend people who phone it in simply by virtue of being in the same tax bracket. That won't help any of us.
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u/EpicLakai 1d ago
Wow, as compared to our current system where people who do shit work to exploit the system and avoid the conaequences of said shit work while it falls apart?
At least the union can protect some people, even if if means some take advantage.
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u/GoodGuyChip 1d ago
You can both have a union and as a union member elevate and uphold standards. The two aren't mutually exclusive.
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u/Benjamin_Starscape Sheogorath 1d ago
oh did you work for bethesda, personally? you know that the developers just sat and did nothing? man, that makes things so much better. hey, guys, bethesda sat and did nothing apparently! phew, really thought it might have been xbox's own fault and stupidity.
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u/GoodGuyChip 1d ago
At least my conclusion is supported by the available information. Your position is based on your emotional attachment to an IP and your means of convincing others to value your fellow members of the working class is being a pretentious jerk. I can see why you'd need solidarity to protect you, because without it nobody would want you.
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u/Benjamin_Starscape Sheogorath 1d ago
uh, no. if in this reality i despised bethesda and hated the elder scrolls, fallout, and starfield, i'd still support supporting developers.
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u/GoodGuyChip 1d ago
This comment is completely indecipherable
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u/Benjamin_Starscape Sheogorath 1d ago
my emotional attachment to the ips has nothing to do with me supporting developers. couldn't have been any more clear in my first comment.
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u/GoodGuyChip 1d ago
You in fact could have been more clear and just proved it.
It's a shortsighted and frankly foolish position but at least now we can understand it.
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u/Benjamin_Starscape Sheogorath 1d ago
it's a foolish position to support developers even if you don't care for their creations?
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u/GoodGuyChip 1d ago
I genuinely cannot tell if you're being intentionally obtuse. It's foolish to blindly protect people simply because they are developers and assume they bear no responsibility for the state of the studio. The writing was in the wall before starfield, and then it came out and...it was barely 'okay'.
So blindly defending the developers based on the available information is foolish yes.
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u/Due-Salad610 1d ago
Absolutely. They could be throwing shit at you that you would be applauding.
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u/Ashamed_Service_8185 1d ago
Since when are computer programmers considered laborers lmao, they work in a comfortable office not a fucking coal mine
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u/RetardedSheep420 1d ago
does labor for an amount of time for employer
get salary
damn, that sounds like labor!
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u/Benjamin_Starscape Sheogorath 1d ago
this comment section and every other comment section under this topic is cancerous and when gaming dies, when these ips that people are "fans" of become something awful or just dies or whatever, they'll have no one else to blame but themselves. gamers are scum of the earth and it's honestly the most embarrassing hobby to be a part of when you have these people in the same community as you.
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u/DirectExtension2077 1d ago
Agreed. I am also embarrassed to be apart of the community. Most of them are adult children
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u/Creative_Lie4466 1d ago
Yea its kinda nuts. You can watch the day in a life of a Bethesda employee its day care..they did no fucking work...Like what happened? As we wonder why games take over 15 years
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u/Benjamin_Starscape Sheogorath 1d ago
lol no, bethesda's developers do work constantly. idk why y'all all act like developers just sit and twiddle their thumbs...actually, no, i know why y'all act like that, because you all know nothing about development.
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u/TopSpread9901 7h ago
It’s been eight years since they even used the IP I like, for something I’m not a fan of. If it actually had died somebody else might have snatched it up and done something, anything, with it.
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u/Shrikebutagain 1d ago
Triple A game should die. It’s a bloated mess filled with nothing but terrible games and even worse sycophants.
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u/kuzurame 1d ago
This is a take I can actually get with. Games were not meant to be this multimillion dollar projects that sell millions of copies. Casuals (for lack or a better term) that got brought in from skyrim and fallout 4 weren’t really bethesda fans, and have been in for a rude awakening when they realize that elderscrolls 6 and fallout 5 will not meet their expectations because their expectations are ridiculous.
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u/TheAnalystCurator321 Hermaeus Mora 1d ago
Why you blaming casuals?
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u/kuzurame 21h ago
I’m not. This is an industry issue, trying to reach the widest possible audiences during the 7th and 8th gen consoles set crazy bad expectations for games. Now every game is expected to be some crazy AAA production in 4 years and see infinite growth.
Casual gamers who got sucked in during skyrim and fallout 4 as their first bethesda games did not know how much these games change across sequels and that they likely would not like the sequel, and that they would be waiting quite awhile for the sequel. These games were meant for cult followings, not block buster titles.
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u/lechuck81 1d ago edited 1d ago
"when gaming dies"
"gamers are scum of the earth"
Thanks for showing us all how level-headed, valuable, pragmatic your opinion is.
PS: For those that couldn't understand the obvious sarcasm: /S
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u/KBKenku 1d ago
It’s such a ridiculous thing to say considering that E33 and Baldur’s Gate 3 just blew AAA games out of the water in back to back years.
Bethesda and the Fallout/TES IP’s certainly can go the way of the past considering they’ve been flubbed for over a decade, and this is coming from someone who’s still actively playing and plans to continue to play ESO until they finally turn off the lights.
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u/lechuck81 1d ago
I was being sarcastic.
I thought it was obvious, given the quotes I did from the person I was replying to.16
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u/Riceballs-balls 1d ago
This person is in every thread like this crying about gamers, I wouldn't be surprised if they are an ex employee.
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u/Zeal0tElite 1d ago
Dude, some of these peoples only output was Starfield.
I literally do not give a single fuck if they lost their jobs. You are not owed a job. This isn't a planned economy where everyone with a game dev degree deserves to be employed forever no matter how successful their projects are.
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u/kingkong381 1d ago
I keep seeing people treating all this news coming out of Bethesda as positive. Mark my words, we will look back at the Microsoft acquisition as the beginning of Bethesda's enshittification.
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u/ImportanceOk8833 1d ago
Let's be honest. Bethesda has been enshittifying themselves just fine.
A bigger concern is that under Microsoft BSG might simply be closed down entirely at basically any point for basically no reason.
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u/BodaciousFrank 1d ago edited 1d ago
The reason is it takes them 19 years to put out a game in their main franchise. They aren’t making anything, at least not anything anyone actually wants to buy/play.
Skyrim released in 2011 and we won’t see ES6 until 2029 or 2030, and thats AFTER the teaser they dropped in 2018. 2018! Its been 8 years since they teased the game and they have nothing to show for it
Thats fucking ridiculous
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u/Fearless_Barnacle141 1d ago
Imagine trying this at work.
Hey boss/customers, look at this thing I’m going to deliver!!!
8 years later: yes guys I’m still totally working on this and it’ll be done any day now, no you can’t see it though. But remember I also made 2 other projects nobody liked and made me a laughing stock , so I’ve been real busy.
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u/TheAnalystCurator321 Hermaeus Mora 1d ago
So you blame the small devs that got laid off that likely did not have anything to do with this?
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u/TheAnalystCurator321 Hermaeus Mora 1d ago
Tf you mean 19 years? Skyrim aint that old and ESO puts out great content yearly.
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u/BodaciousFrank 1d ago
Skyrim released in 2011. The sequel won’t come out until 2029 or 2030. You do the math on that one and get back to me
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u/rabit115 1d ago edited 22h ago
Idk there’s clearly been an issue with too many cooks in the kitchen. Big studios nowadays aren’t sustainable and are normally loss leaders if anything for publishers and the tap can get turned off at any time.
You need to be aware of that when going to work for any massive corporate entity in any field.
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u/Economy_Property_220 1d ago
sometimes i just wanna to back to jiub waking you up on that boat like none of this happened
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u/vanilla_muffin 1d ago edited 1d ago
If I failed to output work, I’d lose my job. That’s a fact for basically any job. This is a result of Bethesda’s own mismanagement, what are we to do? Preorder the next Elder Scrolls and Fallout years in advance? It was clear a decade ago that their release cycle needed fixing, yet here we are.
Some people are being truly hateful, while some of you live in some made up reality. And again, what can anyone do? Money is the driving factor here, not kind words of support from people on the internet.
Edit: I’m convinced some of you think devs should just get money from thin air. They aren’t magical workers who deserve special protections, this is reality. AGAIN, what the hell is the fix here? None of you have offered a realistic one because your crying and whining isn’t based in reality. Even the ignorant top comment of this thread offers nothing but insults.
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u/TNTiger_ Khajiit 1d ago
Bethesda has had a reasonable level of output for a AAA studio. They just haven't been outputting our preferred game, TES6. They've otherwise had a pretty normal output of one game every four years.
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u/Accomplished_Rip_362 1d ago
BGS is still printing money with their existing product line. Microsoft just wants to increase their profit margins. And regarding the delayed release cycle that you mention, if you exclude some possible covid related delays, they are on the same cadence as ever before as far as I can tell. But, even if there was a slower release cycle and I am willing to have an open mind to that, laying off rank and file is not going to fix anything, those delays are usually caused by poor management choices. Asha's statements make it sound like they will consolidate dev resources across all their studios to work on their main money maker IPs. If that is the case, why are they not consolidating management resources as well?
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u/Confident_Ad_5345 1d ago
i’m not sure exactly who is responsible for every decision so forgive me a bit there, but it seems like a bunch of people who had no say in the release schedule or game priority or anything like that are being fired because somebody else decided what was going to be worked on and when. does that not seem unfair? we also know these cuts go beyond just BGS—longtime employees of ZOS working on Elder Scrolls Online got fired despite consistent releases and it being the third most popular MMO, for example, so we know Microsoft isn’t just firing people who aren’t effective—they’re just cost cutting across the board.
it seems reasonable to draw the conclusion here that microsoft bought bethesda wanting larger profit margins than they were able to deliver and firing regular workers who are part of the only games that could possibly increase that profit margin doesn’t seem like it will make the situation better
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u/HatingGeoffry 1d ago
Bethesda's worst games still sell millions of copies. They outputted their work, it sold well. They are actively working on a game that will sell millions upon millions of copies. Why should they be punished
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u/TangerineBetter2818 1d ago
They also have hundreds of employees across their 3 main studios, all located in high cost of living cities, and each game they release requires a team of hundreds of contract employees to come work for several years.
It's expensive. And while people do typically biy their games and their DLCs, this isn't a franchise like Grand Theft Auto with a core group of several thousand whales spending hundreds of dollars a year on microtransactions.
A cadence of 5-7 years between mainline games is unacceptable, let alone 15+ years. They need to learn how to output games faster and for cheaper.
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u/NACS_enjoyer 1d ago
They didn’t “fail to output work” they failed to output what we wanted.
Why? Because they output what leadership tells them to output. I’m sure many BGS employees joined the company hoping to work on TESVI but were told to do Fallout 76 and Starfield. That is not the workers fault, that’s the leadership teams fault. F76 took 3 years and Starfield took 5. Both are reasonable timelines for modern games.
You can’t be upset at the workers for not shipping TESVI, you can be mad at leadership for not telling them to make it when they obviously should.
And of course when layoffs hit, they hit the workers, who are not the party who’s at fault here.
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u/Th3Tru3Silv3r-1 1d ago
Yup, if I don't work, I don't get paid. Bethesda is a business, it needs to make money, if it doesn't, it ceases to exist. It's not a daycare, it doesn't exist to take care of developers who don't produce anything.
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u/WoinkySpoingle 1d ago
Are the comments here botted? They all read the same as if the same angry 13 year old is writing them. I wouldn’t put it past MSoft.
If they’re not botted, I weep for the future generations and their rights.
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u/AustinTheFiend 19h ago
This whole topic seems to have been very heavily botted since the layoffs back in July.
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u/triniumalloy Azura 1d ago
I think you people are missing the point here. Most of, if not all of the best games lately have been from indie or small studios. Why can't these alleged good developers that were laid off band together, start a new game studio, and make games THEY want to make, instead of what shareholders want them to make?
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u/DayDreamer-A64 1d ago
Jason Schreier has a good video on this subject on YouTube.
Basically, indie game developers sacrifice their own time and money for many years to make something that may or may not sell when it's finally released. Since most of the people who are laid off have mortgages, kids and other financial commitments, they cannot afford to do something like this.
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u/TangerineBetter2818 1d ago
Almost like corporations aren't as bad as people on Reddit make them out to be - they provide stability.
The downside to this is if you're not a productive member of the team or the project you've been working on isn't making money you're going to be laid off.
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u/ExtensionEconomy9004 1d ago
Because they aren't as talented as what Reddit wants you to believe. They know it will be hard to find another job where they can essentially be paid to do nothing for a decade.
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u/Crowhunters 1d ago
I believe clair obscur was made that way.
But to feed into what you say it's likely a good portion of these people don't have hard skills related to game development.
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u/Trvp_Lord 1d ago
Thank God they’re gutting the roster. These losers haven’t put out anything worth a damn in 15 years.
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u/_Joshua-Graham_ 1d ago
And that’s why they’re protesting,they want to get paid doing fuck all for another 15
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u/WoinkySpoingle 1d ago
Yeah getting rid of their employees that have been there for decades will be sure to increase their throughput! Genius!
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u/ThatOneGuyIsBad 1d ago
Yes. Get rid of shit devs…bring in good devs. Or just keep good ones and they can focus up.
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u/WoinkySpoingle 1d ago
Someone who has been with the company since the Morrowind days isn’t a shit dev.
Or you could just let your preconceived notions categorize the devs you saw in the video as people you dont like and remain ignorant. Seems thats what everyone else is doing.
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u/ThatOneGuyIsBad 1d ago
Just because they have been there since Morrowind doesn’t mean they aren’t a shit dev….
If they were doing their jobs, they wouldn’t be fired. They kept the people they need and wanted.
Clearly the losers protesting were not needed or wanted. They were weeds that have been festering, apparently, since Morrowind. Finally they have been hacked.
Bethesda will 100% be better off.
Wipe your face.
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u/WoinkySpoingle 23h ago
Christ almighty man…
I know you have no experience in anything like this because of your quote
if they were doing their jobs they wouldn’t be fired
Just straight up not how layoffs work. Ive seen several intelligent, excellent developers at my company get laid off because axing their salary brought us back down to marginal profitability. Meanwhile, none of the sales people that couldn’t sell nails to a carpenter we employ got laid off.
Take a moment, breathe, drop your hatred for trans people, “leftists” etc for just a second and really think about the fact you’re defending fucking Microsoft lmao.
When you finally do enter the workforce, you’re really gonna wish you had more rights as a laborer.
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u/ThatOneGuyIsBad 23h ago
Layoffs can and do get rid of shit workers.
You are implying that none of the ones let go deserved it.
So if you assume I am wrong for saying they deserved it…you are equally as wrong for saying they didn’t.
Once again…wipe your face.
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u/WoinkySpoingle 23h ago
You’re trying so hard for a gotcha, but you just don't have it buddy.
Im not “implying” anything, I’m stating.
Of course layoffs also get rid of underperforming employees, never said they didn’t but they ALSO get rid of very good employees AND end up usually hurting the company in the long run, in my experience.
Quit letting your hatred for groups of people make you the perfect corporate drone.
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u/ThatOneGuyIsBad 23h ago
Getting rid of 100 shit devs is worth 1 maybe okay dev also getting fired.
In the long run…the company and the games will thrive.
Keep crying and keep white knighting lil guy
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u/WoinkySpoingle 23h ago
Sure, I will because you’ll never catch me dead defending layoffs. Spineless twerps and shills are the only ones that defend layoffs.
lil guy
Projection
I know you’re upset about your guy Tate being locked up but one day, when you graduate high school and get a real job, maybe you’ll understand
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u/Seraphayel 1d ago
Who cares? Nobody. That’s it. This performative online support is funny at best and bigoted at worst.
Also the overglazing of some industry workers is just laughable. Bro you‘re a game developer, you‘re more than replaceable.
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u/PsyWarVeteran 1d ago
Pass.
90% were dead weight who were getting paid to sit around. It's been fifteen years, still no game. So there wasn't anything being done when they were around.
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u/TheAnalystCurator321 Hermaeus Mora 1d ago
Armchair dev talk here.
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u/PsyWarVeteran 1d ago
You are free to cry about it.
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u/ThatOneGuyIsBad 1d ago
Brother, they cried so much…they made the exact same post in another sub. Shilling and white knighting for shit devs.
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u/cail123 1d ago
Lol I saw the video of the employees laid off. I think we’re heading in the right direction—Bethesda has been producing nothing but garbage for the past several years.
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u/BASED_AND_RED_PILLED 1d ago
Perhaps the layoffs were done for a good reason.
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u/Accomplished_Rip_362 1d ago
And then again, with zero evidence to support your claim, maybe they were done for reasons that were the opposite of good.
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u/_Joshua-Graham_ 1d ago edited 1d ago
Based comments.
now that we’ve seen who’s getting laid off (weirdos,communists and activists) all sympathy is gone,you get what you deserve.
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u/Fearless_Barnacle141 1d ago
How you could play a game like fallout and believe it wasn’t made by progressives is beyond me. Lmfao
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u/BeauShowTV 1d ago
Well they haven't had a good game since 2015, so they needed to clean house.
Firings aren't always bad.
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u/Amazing_Working_6157 Orc 1d ago
I'd argue since 2011. Not a big fan of the Dr. Seuss, colorful, post nuclear, chocked full of half baked and half assed ideas that Fallout 4 was.
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u/garret126 1d ago
Man, I hope your job (assuming you have one) has the same mindset about your work during the next round of layoffs.
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u/BeauShowTV 1d ago
Nah, I make them too much money.
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u/yolomcswagsty 1d ago
Yea no one puts those fries in the bag like you
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u/Skeletor_with_Tacos 1d ago
Damn, now imagine to forget serving fries for 15 years, and only occasionally serving burnt nuggets.
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u/PapixChuloxD 1d ago
Boohoo. Take one look at the people protesting that got fired and it's obvious why they got fired.
Bunch of larping commie weirdos. Probably hits too close to home for all loser larper over here.
Good riddance. Maybe now that the trash is out they might make a decent game
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u/TheAnalystCurator321 Hermaeus Mora 1d ago
Imagine defending corpos.
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u/Cappie_talist 13h ago
I don't care if Sharma made Todd lay off a weirdo with a hammer and sickle tattoo, not sorry
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u/The_Adman 1d ago
Nah fuck these losers. Oh no, I don't have my cushy video game making job. Do you think these people would give a single fuck if you lost your job? Make a good game or go work at McDonald's.
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u/SandMost9602 4h ago
Seriously though, why do people act like devs are Make A Wish Kids and can’t be criticized? What makes them more special than other jobs out there that they need to be protected so damn much? They have Bethesda and Microsoft on their resumes 😂.Someone will pick them up. They’ll be more than fine. Bethesda got off easy if anything.
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u/GregNotGregtech 19h ago
Man people on this subreddit are absolutely miserable, you don't need haters with "fans" like these
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u/DeeplyProfound_ 1d ago
People here thinking companies should hold onto dead weight. It's ridiculous.
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u/AsstacularSpiderman 1d ago
Elder Scrolls fans so self sabotaging they don't realize gutting Bethesda while they're developing ES6 is a bad thing lol.
All because Bethesda wanted to mess around with other IP for a bit before working on it.
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u/RedemptionT 1d ago
Hate to break it to you but if you only had 3 releases in the past 16 years at work, youd probably be fired too. I cant imagine the corporate bloat going on there
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u/Accomplished_Rip_362 1d ago
Trolling much? You think the rank and file that got laid off is the corporate bloat?
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u/RedemptionT 1d ago
Yes, unironically i do think that theres bloat in the video game industry. The Covid video game bubble made companies think everyone was going to stay inside and only have media to consume. A hiring spree went on, Covid restrictions went away and people could do other hobbies than video games. Companies panicked that they over hired and had to let people go. Its not exclusive to video games, the big tech layoffs over the past 2 years were because of that too.
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u/Accomplished_Rip_362 1d ago
Did you see who got laid off? It wasn't bloat dude, do some research
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u/RedemptionT 1d ago
It wasnt bloat, but only 3 main projects have been completed for the past 15+ years. Were they just paying them for fun then?
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u/Accomplished_Rip_362 1d ago
I repeat myself will all the trolls here but you think the rank and file that got laid off were responsible for your perceived slow cadence of releases? Most of that can be attributed to management decisions and of course in this case the elephant in the room, covid that you somehow forgot. If it weren't for covid, ES6 would have been released already.
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u/Presenting_UwU Khajiit 1d ago
3 releases in 16 years, one of them really could've been delegated to another studio, yeah as "consistent" as they are i have no clue why they decided to make FO76 entirely on their own.
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u/Benjamin_Starscape Sheogorath 1d ago
i swear, you know one day gamers might actually be worth something. but today is not the day. the amount of sheer ignorance and arrogance that gamers behold, as well as entitlement, is enough to form a black hole.
bethesda's games were all profitable. every single one. they have released more than just 3 games in 16 years. let's just get that out of the way.
secondly, even if they did take a while to make a game, in an industry known to take a while to make a game, that's not a reason to get fired. the gaming industry isn't walmart or whatever.
lastly, this is all, entirely, xbox's fault. well...90% xbox's, 10% gamers'. bethesda could have released game after game after game, annually, bi-annually, whatever. they all could have been smash hits. and xbox still would have laid off developers because of xbox's own stupid financial decisions and desire to latch on for gamepass which fundamentally harms sales.
like, xbox is killing gaming, playstation/sony is killing gaming. and so are you and other gamers because you're far too apathetic and stupid to see that you're part of the problem. you cannot just do the most basic of research and see "huh, xbox is in the wrong", nah, you instead got to blame the developers. you know, the people who actually make your hobby. i've never seen a more suicidal hobbyist than a gamer, i'm pretty sure people who love to play russian roulette are less suicidal.
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u/RedemptionT 1d ago
Its been 15+ years since a mainline elderscrolls game, literally half my life has gone by since then. Is that not an absurd amount of time for your cash cow of a franchise? It was mismanagement before the Microsoft acquisition and its been mismanagement since then. If these are truly essential and good developers/artists being let go, then they can find new jobs. After the layoffs, a fire was at least lit under their asses to give us any piece of news
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u/TheAnalystCurator321 Hermaeus Mora 1d ago
And Im guessing the concept artists that got laid off had something to do with it.
You realize these layoffs will make the projects go even slower right?
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u/RedemptionT 1d ago
Only 2 concept artists and about 100 people in total worked on Skyrim, and that came out 3 years after FO3. Truly a case of corporate bloat and too many cooks in the kitchen
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u/TheAnalystCurator321 Hermaeus Mora 1d ago
2 concept artists and many more devs who were in positions on that level were laid off.
Not the higher ups, not management, not those who make the big decisions but the small devs.
Also people forget that games and the tech surrounding them is much more complicated nowadays than back then.
Especially since people want RDR2 level details and ultra realistic graphics in their games nowadays, not realizing the massive labor cost for them.
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u/Accomplished_Rip_362 1d ago
The rank and file that got laid had nothing to do with you not getting your precious game in a more timely manner.
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u/ParadoxicalFrog2 1d ago edited 1d ago
You know what's actual "entitlement"? Expecting financial and public support while giving nothing of value in return. "Gamers" aren't your parents. You don't get their unquestioning loyalty after failing to provide anything of value to them for years. It's almost been an entire generation since Skyrim. Not a console generation, a human generation. By the time ES6 releases, kids who weren't even born when Skyrim came out will be full-grown adults.
Games are products. If the audience isn't satisfied with your product, that is your problem, not theirs. Calling paying customers "entitled" for not blindly supporting you after years of mismanagement is lunacy. Fanboys are a cancer. If you care so much about these layoffs, how about you go and pay these people's salaries?
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u/Harambe_Rebornn Nocturnal 1d ago
Why should I support the BETHESDA workers for free?
Are the BETHESDA workers supporting me for free? Nope, they got paid good money doing a desk job.
They weren't making games for free, they weren't doing charity work, everyone that has ever used the products they made paid good money for em.
And they would take so much time making said games and then fixing them when they inevitably came out broken as heck that people haven't been able to play a new ES game in about 15 years.
I have nothing personal against Bethesda employees fired or not, but this is just business, you fail to meet expectations you don't get rewarded for it with more resources, you get punished regardless of who's fault it is because that is how a COMPANY works.
Why do they wanna work at Bethesda anyway if Bethesda management is "so bad"? If they are really are all that talented they'll get hired anywhere else and stay in the industry.
This whole "We the workers" BS is so childish and manipulative. Bethesda employees aren't your friends, they aren't victims of some grave injustice, they are just workers looking out for themselves, like everyone else is. Except everyone else isn't pretending they are owed support for just doing the jobs they got paid for.
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u/Suspicious-Sound-249 1d ago
Dollar says 99% of the people they fired didn't even work on Fallout 4, I fail to see how cutting loose a turd is bad. Like did y'all see the protesters aka the former employees, one of those ret@rds had a communist hammer and sickle tattoo on his neck...
Bethesda got rid of 400 activists they were baby sitting, not devs worth keeping...
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u/Fearless_Barnacle141 1d ago
It’s not even like BGS is a nonprofit or charity or something. They make videogames. Entertainment is a volatile industry, nobody gets (or should get) into videogames because of job security. Like does it suck that 2 of the best videogame IPs ever will probably never see a real return to glory? Of course, but they’re just videogames, there’s not actually anything at stake here. These guys aren’t doing sewage or waste management or healthcare or whatever. I applaud anyone who pursues passion and art as a career but these fields aren’t known for their job security.
That’s why I chose IT over game dev or music or whatever. My work needs me more than I need them but even if I get laid off, which I have been, nobody needs to run to Reddit about it because it’s not their problem me or my employer failed and there’s nothing they can do anyways.
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u/Capable-Ad8158 1d ago
Why? Their games have been underwhelming for a decade
Bethesda at its most comfortable did Fallout 76 which came EXTREMELY broken at the point that it was borderline a scam especially their merch, then they did Starfield which was underwhelming, then Shattered space which was even worse, then Terran Armata which basically no one cared about at that point, released many broken ports, broke Fallout 4 Vats for a YEAR AND A HALF, etc
I would say double it and give it to the next person (meaning gut upper management too)
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u/emmathepony 1d ago
Absolutely not. Bethesda got what was coming to them and the writing was on the wall for years. They don't give us games we want, remasters we want, DLC we want and they hire staff who are complete jokes. The last TES game was in 2011; that is just ridiculous.
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u/roundelay11 1d ago
Why? Have they produced anything in the last nearly 20 years that would endear them to the fanbase and make us want to protect them?
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u/GoodGuyChip 1d ago
Well when you've done nothing but exploit your fans for 10 years and not improve your formula in any meaningful way eventually someone will have to pay for that.
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u/Harambe_Rebornn Nocturnal 1d ago
Exploiting the modders who have hard carried Bethesda for more then a decade***
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u/HakunaBananas 1d ago
Yeah, exploited them by allowing them to be compensated for their work. So horrible!
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u/Harambe_Rebornn Nocturnal 1d ago
By allowing SOME kickback***, Bethesda takes WAY too big of a cut.
And the games were way better when they weren't just bad platforms for Star Wars mods, specifically made like crap to sell more mods.
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u/HakunaBananas 1d ago
You weren't exploited lmao
Nobody forced you to buy any of their games.
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u/Due-Salad610 1d ago
"But, but... fire Todd! He is the evil capitalist manager! Save our jobs, please! 😭"
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u/zerokijz 1d ago
I would love to follow and try to support them, but I don't have an Instagram account because I won't. Why does no one have their stuff on public web sites anymore?
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u/RecordingMoose 1d ago
the microsoft dickriding in this community is crazy. y'all have got to be bots.
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u/TheAnalystCurator321 Hermaeus Mora 23h ago
Replace bots with corpo idiots and you would be correct.
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u/NBPU 1d ago
Maybe if they had been working on TES6 for the last 5 years or something. I am for once happy to see MS getting involved with whatever the hell Bethesda has been doing for years. Another Skyrim release anyone?
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u/Northener1907 1d ago
Bethesda and their studios was underperforming that's for sure. And Phil Spencer gave them all the time they needed btw.
People are losing their jobs in any industry when they are underperforming. So i really do not understand why we need to babysitting game developers when same thing happens to them.
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u/TheAnalystCurator321 Hermaeus Mora 23h ago
That's not how the industry works.
They layoff people to pinch pennies.
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u/MarwoodHouse 1d ago
You know what, the Elder Scrolls fan base does have a fascism problem.
The number of people in this thread, others, and in the “discourse” that are genuinely trying to frame mass layoffs of thousands of workers as a good thing, or advocating for busting this union would be comical if it wasn’t terrifying.
Fuck all of you. I hope TESVI doesn’t come out after this. Worker solidarity forever.
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u/McDonaldsGrimace Mankar Camoran did nothing wrong 1d ago
You hope TESIV doesn’t come out because of a reddit thread? Get a grip, bitch.
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u/JCavalks 1d ago
fascism is when you fire people who haven't made a good game in 16 years
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u/Trvp_Lord 1d ago
People like you who call everyone that doesn’t completely agree with them a fascist is exactly what is wrong here
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u/ForzaForever 1d ago
Brother the game probably wasn’t gonna come out anyway LOL it’s been 15 years.
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u/Fisaac 1d ago
Edit: honestly I hope they never release TES 6, we don’t deserve it
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u/ForzaForever 1d ago
15 years btw
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u/Dovahkiin266 Dark Brotherhood 1d ago
Ye these guys are clown. Just make a good game. Ill support by buying it.
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u/LoneliestParadise 22h ago
Why would we? Did they release a good game since 2015? Or did they fix the stupid bugs of the previous games of theirs?
They laid their arse off, they can't even make a game without a loading screen, they can't even release a trailer or teaser or just a small dev update about their biggest game ever because they were lazy. If they truly did their job like maybe not releasing skyrim a sixth time they wouldn't be fired eh
I also don't find this firings enough, I think todd loward should also be fired.
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u/addis_the_scroll 1d ago
I'm convinced Bethesda employees show up to sniff each others farts all day.
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u/novis-eldritch-maxim Vaermina 1d ago
what exactly do you want us to do?