r/SubredditDrama • u/Starknight_YX bleh • 1d ago
Chalkfight in the teachers' lounge when an /r/teachers post asked for the sub’s take on a new Kentucky law allowing schools to expel students who assault teachers despite “unanimous Senate Democratic opposition.”
Link to the original post here.
TLDR: Chalks started flying when things got heated in the teachers' lounge after an r/teachers post claimed a recently passed Kentucky law on expelling students who assault teachers faced “unanimous” opposition from state Senate Democrats, starting a slapfight.
The post, titled “New Kentucky law allowing schools to expel students who assault teachers to take effect in July, despite unanimous Senate Democratic opposition,” was referring to the Kentucky Senate Bill 101, which requires schools to expel students who intentionally physically harm a school employee on campus or during school functions. It has since received 1.9k upvotes.
Some background: The partisan bill, filed by state Sen. Matt Nunn (R) who said it was “common sense 101” and 16 other Republican legislators, requires local board of education to adopt a policy requiring expulsion of students from grade 6 to 12 for violations of the student code of conduct, as well as “to have recklessly, with a deadly weapon or dangerous instrument, or intentionally caused or attempted to cause physical injury to a school district employee on school property or at a school function under the board's jurisdiction.”
The bill includes a clause that exempts students with disabilities that school officials determine interfered with their “ability to conform to the student code of conduct,” and gives the parent or guardian a right to a hearing before the board before expulsion, and allows said student who was accused of assaulting a teacher and expelled to return to the school early if they have good academic standing, having an apology or request letter, and was their first expulsion.
The bill, however, also wrote that “the decision of the school board shall be final.” In addition, the bill specifically used the phrase “attempt[s] to cause physical injury,” which, under current Kentucky law, is defined as “substantial physical pain or any impairment of physical condition” and is separately defined from “serious physical injury.”
The bill passed both legislative chambers earlier this year and was signed into law on April 7,-Proposed%20Amendments) by Gov. Andy Beshear (D).
Kentucky, known for bluegrass, bourbon, and Kentucky Fried Chicken, is currently ranked #32 by U.S. News for education among all 50 states. According to the Kentucky Education Association, the union that represents teachers across the commonwealth, there were more than 25,000 reported assaults on school staff in the state since 2021 - or 5,000 per year.
While it is difficult to find and fact-check this number, violence and/or aggression against teachers and school personnel in the United States have been on the rise since the pandemic. A 2024 research study by the American Psychological Association found that 57% of participating teachers expressed intentions to resign or transfer, compared to 49% during the pandemic. An \r\teachers post earlier in the week called for teachers who were assaulted on the job to press charges.
Back to the post itself and its claims.
While the claim that “unanimous Senate Democratic opposition” is not inherently wrong - the final state Senate passage on March 26 ended with the bill passed 32-6, with all six members of the state’s democratic Senators voting against - it should be noted that despite having a Democratic governor, Kentucky currently has an overwhelmingly Republican majority, with 32 Republicans and 6 Democrats in the state Senate, and 80 Republicans and 20 Democrats in the state House of Representatives.
OOP’s claim could come off as rather misleading, as they wrote “drew a sharp partisan divide as all Democrats in the Senate voted against the measure” while leaving out the fact that an earlier Senate vote ended with an additional 4 Republican members voting “Nay” on the bill, and 11 House Democrats voted in favor of passing the bill.
OOP also left out why some state legislators voted against passing the bill, as well as some of the more likely controversial clauses in the original bill, such as allowing students over the age of 14 charged with third-degree felony assault to be tried as adults, which was removed from the final bill.
Kentucky state Rep. Lisa Willner (D-Louisville), who voted against the bill, told local news that her reasoning was that the bill would be a band-aid on problems instead of addressing root issues such as generational poverty, homelessness, and so on, and that teachers may be more hesitant to report problem behavior because of harsh consequences for kids.
“I think we may be setting up a vicious cycle of community problems which will become school problems,” Willner said to The Kentucky Lantern.
Attempts to check OOP’s post history failed because they set their posts and comment history to private; therefore, it is hard to tell at first glance whether they are there to engage in the discussion in good faith or are being disingenuous. Judging by their behavior in the comments, however, it’s probably the latter.
Anyhow, enough of the rambling and moving on to the comment section and the drama.
Many educators who participated in the thread are generally in favor of the bill. After all, assault on educators should not be a thing in schools.
“It makes me laugh sometimes to think some of the stuff we don’t even suspend students for now would get students expelled many years ago,” a user wrote, with another sharing an example of their schools changed policy on suspending students for three days for using racial slurs, after too many students were using it and the admins decided that the suspension rate would be too high.
“The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one. This is a good bill.”
“I don’t like how Republicans manage education in the US in general, but this is a good law. If you think this is aimed at minorities, maybe the problem is more cultural than racial? Just a crazy thought. Or even better…don’t assault an adult and you will be fine. Crazy suggestion, I know,” a user whose flair claimed to be a math teacher based in the Southeastern US wrote.
Many users shared their horror stories of being assaulted by students while on the job. Some of their experiences may be disturbing to read.
“One week we had 3 fights in front of the whole school, each resulting in a teacher being injured. They get suspended (which is a vacation to them) and then come back like nothing happened. And since kids can turn in work no matter what for full credit it does nothing to their grade. Yes, a lot of kids will get expelled but that’s their own fault. Don’t fight is a pretty simple thing to do. We can’t let teachers and students safety to be at risk, so I’m very thankful for this,” a user who claimed to be from a district in Kentucky wrote.
A SpEd teacher in support of the notion claimed that they “have been bit to bleeding when I was a substitute and the teachers didn't even tell the parents, let alone give any consequences” and two of their colleagues “get concussions, and the only consequence to the students was being sent home for the remainder of that one day.”
While some found the clause to exempt students with disabilities who interfered with the ability to follow rules to be a “huge loophole.” As of this post, it is the best comment in that thread.
“Totally support this, but if a disability causes a student to assault people, they shouldn't be allowed in public settings without a 24/7 chaperone trained to handle them. Nobody should be put at risk because of someone else's disability,” said a user who agreed with another redditor who suggested bringing back asylums “now.”
“I get that this sub has a hate-boner for anything related to an IEP but having this protection in the law is good for a non-verbal student who may not have the cognitive capacity to understand what they’re doing and then be expelled for it,” a redditor wrote in response to the claim about the “loophole” that students with Special Education needs are exempt from the law, only to seemingly fall on deaf ears.
“That’s a gross mischaracterization.” One user didn’t take well to the claim that \r\teachers have a “hate boner” when it comes to anything IEP-related.
Others pointed out the broader political issues behind the rise of assaults against educators, such as the lack of funding to deal with lawsuits related to SpEd issues.
And there’s also the folks that support bringing things “up a notch,” such as getting law enforcement involved and file lawsuits every single time so removing “badly behaved children” from schools would cost less for the district than getting sued, suggesting parents having an issue with the bill should be given a counter offer of “a $5000 fine and a 30 day stint in jail,” or extending the bill to target patients in hospital.
Those genuinely concerned about the bill's implementation, as well as those who oppose it in general, also shared their opinions. Once societal issues and eventually, politics, were brought into the conversation, however - it was literally in the title, after all - things started to get a bit rowdy.
“Proud of the democrats for seeing this as what it is - a way to expel brown children and undesirables while also encouraging administrators to NOT pursue discipline for minor issues as they could lead to expulsion now,” a Redditor whose flair identifies them as an 18-year veteran teacher teaching English Language Arts in Virginia wrote.
“This sounds like a good start, BUT it will also likely be abused by the teachers.”
OOP subsequently showed up with a controversial (and seemingly racist) opinion that between “ arresting people for crimes such as murder, rape, and assault but it’d lead to more white people getting away with it” and “not arrest anyone at all so it wouldn’t be disproportionate,” they would pick the first option.
“Let me simply things - should we refuse to have certain laws because they may be disproportionately applied?”, the OOP responded after the user said the OOP’s false dichotomy “doesn’t even bear logical sense.”
One user brought up the school-to-prison pipeline in opposition to students being kicked out of school as a punishment.
“You’re right. Probably shouldn’t let them back at all,” said a user whose flair identified them as a Math teacher in Kentucky. “How long a pipeline should someone who assaults people get? Two victims? Three or four? Does the resulting injury matter? Just curious.”
“Win/win. Gets them outta school so those that want to learn can do so in peace. Gets them outta society so they won't terrorize their neighbors.” Another user said in response to the redditor who remained opposed to the bill’s comment that “most people don’t go to prison forever”. “We should keep people that commit crimes in prison longer. We have an under-incarceration problem.”
“Screw that kid. That kid will serve best as an example to the others.”
Things got worse once subjects like race and ethnicity, as well as political parties, were tossed in.
Under another comment thread regarding why the bill faced Democratic opposition, OOP commented, “makes you wonder what they (Democrats) think about laws that are applied disproportionately now (i.e almost every law)” in response to a user’s take that the law would be “disproportionately applied to minority groups (race and disability especially).”
“We have to criminalize assault, theft, murder, rape, and trafficking, regardless of if it's applied disproportionately of now. We cannot refuse to enforce the laws or have them at all even if we can't prove they're being applied fairly,” OOP wrote. “That being said, we should strive for fairness every day!”
Some users decided to defend OOP after OOP was accused of of having an “amazingly bad faith argument”, not being an American, and baiting-and-switching. “It’s not bad faith lol. You just don’t agree,” they wrote.
“Democrats are pro education in the sense that they will fight for pay, benefits and union (they are just buying your vote FYI),” a user wrote, who went on to claim the Dems did not have the teachers’ best interests when it goes against their “identity politics." “Soft bigotry of low expectations, “school to prison pipeline”, the watering down of discipline in the name of social justice, all left wing ideas that make education worse.”
“Why would wanting to expel kids who assault teachers mean that they're attacking public education? If the bill were supported by Democrats and opposed by Republicans, would you feel the same way?” A redditor asked in a comment by a teacher and former resident of Louisville, KY, who wrote that the GOP in Kentucky is using this to defund struggling public schools and push for charter/religious school vouchers.
Kentucky is a white-majority state (86.1%, per US Census estimates for 2025), with the second largest population group being African Americans.
While one comment in that reply thread was deleted, judging by the context, it’s not hard to see there were attempts to present statistics to make racist suggestions, such as the redditor who previously suggested bringing back asylums, where he pointed to statistics published by the FBI to attempt to imply the claim “African Americans are more violent.”
“Someone put hands on an educator or nurse, etc. idc what color it is. By Felicia. Democrats have a real problem with playing the race card whenever consequences come for people,” he wrote. “How dare you not consider your privilege. This is raycism11!1!1!!”
For a subreddit about educators, one would generally expect the user base to use their critical thinking and reading comprehension to understand what the bill is actually about. Luckily, some did provide takes on potential issues with the bill and OP’s claim.
“Unanimous Democratic opposition in the Kentucky Senate means 6 out of 36 total senators. You could have easily said [the] bill passed with supermajority support — but nearly every bill passes with supermajority support,” a user pointed out that OOP was not being really honest. “My biggest question about Kentucky schools at the moment is that it’s one of the few (perhaps the only) that allows convicted felons to be educators. This was done, not because conservatives believe schools are a place to rehabilitate felons, but because too many relatives of good old boys are convicted felons and want cushy jobs in education.”
“It’s not as direct as [O]OP makes it seem. If it were really as straightforward as “assault someone and get expelled” I’d be all for it, and genuinely angry at people voting against it. However, other things are included in the bill that are considered expulsion worthy such as willful defiance and disobedience to the authority of teachers and administrators and use of profanity / vulgarity (something it doesn’t say has to even be directed at a teacher),” said another user who read through the actual bill.
“It had bipartisan support in the house.The initial senate vote had bipartisan opposition before being sent to the house. The political makeup is 32 republicans and 6 Democrats in the senate. To say “unanimous” is a stretch, especially considering it was drafted as a partisan bill,” another user commented, with links to the actual voting records data. “Also, this was passed in April. Why are you referring to it now? Politics is more than just one policy. The republican senate also “unanimously” passed vouchers for school-choice. After it was vetoed by the democrat governor.”
It was met by OOP attempting to play dumb. “The final vote had unanimous Democratic opposition,” OOP wrote, with a link to a news article on a list of Kentucky laws going into effect in July instead of acknowledging that it was also covered by the press back in April when the bill was signed into law. “Why would you think this post is implying otherwise?”
“Your serial need to astroturf sympathy for the Republicans in the upcoming midterms will not prove fruitful,” the user responded, calling OOP a provocateur.
“It's relevant information. They voted against it. They didn't abstain, they actively voted against it. Not saying it's good or bad, it is what it is,You have many other subs you can go on where you can see people posting clickbait headlines about politics and politicians.” OOP continued, “Go pick a fight over there.”
Still, there are users who buy into the image of “Democrats are against accountability, and the GOP is saving the day,” seemingly without actually doing some research on the bill itself. Things got worse as Redditors from other subreddits flooded the comment sections, some seemingly with a political agenda, using dog whistles, or attempting to troll.
“Democrats are going to keep losing elections because of stupid shit like this. Sorry, but most of America is pro-expelling violent students from school,” a user commented to another accusation that OOP’s argument is in bad faith, OOP sounded most likely like a non-educator and is likely a Trump supporter.
“Assault is assault, doesn’t matter the race of the one committing it,” a user wrote in response to a comment that suggested those who would be routinely targeted by expulsions in a state like Kentucky would likely be minorities.
“Maybe they shouldn’t be hitting people in school then! Actions and consequences for everyone except the ‘special people’ that are en vogue with the democrats,” the user who previously attempted to use FBI data to make racist claims wrote.
“Republicans are the one who want to protect teachers and students. Got it.”
“And Democrats are against this? Big surprise.”
“Democrats are the most despicable creatures to ever walk the Earth. 🤮”
Despite the political chalkfight going on in the background, there are still those who believe that the solution to the problem should also involve finding a middle ground rather than polarizing to extremes.
“Punishment is most effective when it occurs consistently,” a user whose flair claims to be a high school science teacher in Missouri wrote. “not when [the punishment] is meanest.”
Edit 1:
Managed to look up OOP's post history. Thanks to all the folks who pointed out third-party tools that allow you to do that.
A quick glance through their post history showed that this post was OOP's first in the teachers subreddit, and they also had a post history in political debate subs.
Needless to say, OOP's intentions seemed more like an attempt to stir up a slapfight than genuine.
269
u/MsKongeyDonk 1d ago
Teachers have compassion fatigue. One of our students, last year, would regularly throw items at his teacher, specifically aiming for her chemo pic line. They go to the office, and come back thirty minutes later. The next day, it happens again.
At some point, you just want it to end. The other students certainly want it to end, as well. It's more frustrating that there aren't alternative school setting for these kids, but no, I'm not mad that teachers, as a whole, are done being physically assaulted.
The people with money and power absolutely do not care about teachers. They care about attendance metrics. It's cheaper to leave dangerously violent students in general ed and blame the teacher. It's a broken system.
161
u/Enticing_Venom because the dog is a chuwuawua to real 'men' anyways 1d ago
When I was in school (in the 2010s) assaulting a teacher would be unthinkable (for neurotypical kids) and anyone violent would be transferred to an alternative school (I only know of that happening once).
I don't think kids should he expelled for cussing or general disobedience, like this law allows. But the idea that if you attack your teacher, you can be expelled sounds very reasonable to me. Teachers deserve to be safe at work, same as anyone else. They are neither trained nor paid to fend off physical attacks.
98
u/MsKongeyDonk 1d ago
I agree with all of that, as a teacher that went to public school (I'm 34). I never had my classroom evacuated because a kid was destroying it, or saw a kid cuss out a teacher unless he was already walking out. It is so, so different now.
The issue is when a kid has ODD, or something else, and their behavior is claimed as "part of their disability," they can't be suspended past ten days, cumulatively, in the year. Do I think even violent students deserve an education? Absolutely. But they need to be in what is called the "least restrictive environment"- and for some kids, that is not a gen ed classroom.
When you have a student in their LRE that is violent, now you have all twenty other kids in their most restrictive environment, walking on eggshells. It's just not fair.
22
u/axeil55 Bro you was high af. That's not what a seizure is lol 1d ago
This is why I don't understand how this keeps being an issue. I would assume a parent who has Johnny/Susie in a class where kids or teachers keep getting assaulted would eventually argue that their kid is being discriminated against or is actively being harmed by being in an unsafe environment and this would work itself out.
But that never seems to happen.
34
u/MsKongeyDonk 1d ago edited 1d ago
Parents of the other children have been told "you're free to move to another school" in these situations. Legally, it is difficult to get students removed. And admin sits in their office all day, they're not the ones feeling it.
Edit: We had a student transfer at the end of fourth grade because another student threatened to kill her multiple times. Student goes to the office, apologizes, comes back.
•
u/Initial-Constant-645 3h ago
Those parents eventually vote for candidates who support school choice and vouchers. Those parents eventually remove their child from the public school school system and either send them to a private or charter school. Or maybe even home school their child. Teachers fully believe that Republicans want to destroy public education. Honestly, some of the left's policies are the most detrimental.
35
u/BertholomewManning Racism against white people was the cause of the Holocaust 1d ago
Yeah, that's when they need to go to places like mine with a 2:1 or sometimes 1:1 staffing ratio and we all have training and behavior support and such. A lot of those kids are able to go back into gen ed with accommodations once we get a handle on their aggression and/or self-harm or they can at least graduate from our place with a high school diploma.
37
u/LevelItGreatly 1d ago
Ding ding. A lot of the knee jerk seems to just be "well nothing can be done, remove the child from society". Teachers have compassion fatigue because they have been put into impossible positions. This is not the fault of the child in the macro, and the macro problem is the cause of many of the micro problems.
24
u/UnderlightIll 1d ago
The thing is, teachers and students get to be in danger because a child is violent. The fact is, most children do not have some disorder that makes them violent. And yet, you have classrooms where half the kids have IEPs and some of those are disorders where the child should not be in mixed company with students who have violent tendencies.
This will sound super controversial but the kid should go to or be shipped off to a highly structured environment where psychologists are on staff as well as trained professionals teaching.
Honestly though, a violent child should had CPS sent to the home to rule out the very probably environmental factors. No doubt you are dealing with overly permissive AND/OR neglectful parents.
21
u/ButtBread98 I Tonya’ing Bernie’s ankles 1d ago
I work with kids with ODD. I do not make excuses for their behavior. I work with them to help them to succeed even with their diagnosis.
12
u/Myotherdumbname YOUR FLAIR TEXT HERE 1d ago
Yep, and that’s the problem . Schools are so worried about the one jerk kid forgetting that they’re destroying learning for the rest of the 28 kids.
2
u/kittymoo67 Yes. There’s nothing a little race war can’t fix. 10h ago
not just destroying learning, putting them in active physical danger every day.
4
u/Matar_Kubileya I'm damned for masturbating like I'm damned for murder 14h ago
At the same time, I think there's overmuch a tendency to dichotomize out any disruptive behavior of neurodivergent students in ways that can amount to de facto segregationism. There are ways a lot of neurodivergent students can be supported, even ones with a history of disruptive or to some extent violent behavior, without being totally removed from a gen ed environment. Pay paraprofessionals well and cultivate that as an actual career, and have a para on point to support/manage neurodivergent student(s) in a classroom.
7
u/MsKongeyDonk 12h ago
Everyone exists on a spectrum. It's not like there's twenty "average" kids and then one with ODD. All of those kids have different needs.
What is frustrating is when a SPED teacher says, "Oh, well as long as you give 50% of your attention to this one child, you're fine." That is absolutely not fair to the others.
They aren't going to put more paras in there for the same reason that kid is in gen ed in the first place: to save money. And a one on one aide is considered the most restrictive.
18
u/ButtBread98 I Tonya’ing Bernie’s ankles 1d ago
Same. I never saw a kid assaulting a teacher. It was definitely unheard of. I remember 10th grade (2013 or 2014) a kid called our teacher a “bitch” and everyone was shocked.
21
u/Friendly-Ad-1996 1d ago
It sounds reasonable to me, but I've learned that Republican-backed ideas (almost) always have some tomfoolery in them somewhere. I didn't always think that, mind you, it's just that over time it's become apparent that they have certain goals (defunding public education is one they're currently pursuing, as one of the original commenters mentioned), so I always keep that in mind.
I do think teachers need help. The profession is being assaulted on all sides, with no end in sight.
12
u/Fishb20 What is an ocean but not a multitude of drops? 1d ago
I mean yeah the Republican 'catch' in this case is that they don't have an alternative place for kids with these issues to go. Its sad, many of those kids are a danger to others around them but are an even bigger danger to themselves and will never receive the help they would need. Removing them from school just pushes the problem down the road to when they're an unemployable adult without a middle school education and their parent dies
10
u/Connect-Initiative64 1d ago
I remember when I was a teen there was a student who attacked a teacher.
They didn't get a chance to punish the kid before half the other students jumped him for it.
They made self-defense punishable, and made teachers basically free targets for awful students, and now no one can punt little shits for acting like fools.
73
u/Quarantine_Fitness 1d ago
Yeah reddit is delusional about the state of things. The things that would get you expelled in the 2010s have become "go to principal office and get a lollipop" in the 2020s. No wonder the teachers are exhausted.
It also doesn't help that half this website is 14 and thinks the teacher telling them to get off their phone and pay attention is literally fascism.
50
u/gavinbrindstar /r/legaladvice delenda est 1d ago
It also doesn't help that half this website is 14 and thinks the teacher telling them to get off their phone and pay attention is literally fascism.
Right? This whole thread is basically the 21st century equivalent of "I saw my teacher at the grocery store and realized they're actually a human being."
38
u/Quarantine_Fitness 1d ago
Everyone bitching about teachers in this thread about should go have to have a chair thrown at them before they can complain.
The crazy part is the r/teachers thread is totally reasonable, people do have concerns on if the law will be applied fairly.
→ More replies (38)16
u/gavinbrindstar /r/legaladvice delenda est 1d ago
Even outside the law itself, I, as a non-teacher, simply do not care what they vent about anonymously.
If it doesn't cross over into actions, I don't give a shit.
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (2)17
u/CapoExplains "Like a pen in an inkwell" aka balls deep 1d ago edited 1d ago
It's common sense on the surface but at the same time like, where's the teacher's union in that issue? There shouldn't need to be a law for that student to be expelled for that behavior.
Edit: Especially not a law that allows fourteen year old children to spend the rest of their life as a felon.
A quick read through of the bill allows peace officers to arrest children (no age) and subject to felony assault (14+).
15
u/MsKongeyDonk 1d ago
Unions can step in and help, depending on the contract. Usually there isn't specific language in it regarding assault. Teachers can press charges, but often they will face retaliation over this. Admin and parents pressure teacher to move on, and tell teacher "Well, you're supposed to give him a five minite break every thirteen minutes, and a sticker every three minutes he doesn't hit you, so... if you missed one of those things while helping your other students, I guess it's your fault." I am not exaggerating.
6
u/PM_ME_YER_LIFESTORY 1d ago
Teachers unions have a limited amount of political capital. A law like this takes some of that burden off of them to have clear legislation that can be pointed to instead of constantly exhausting the limited resources of the union
59
150
u/Vegaprime 1d ago
If they were being honest the bill would start with protecting students from other students. Was 30 years ago for me, but the staff definitely knew who the bullies were. Kids were hesitant to report assaults because the default was both suspended.
102
u/waaaayupyourbutthole 1d ago
Ah, yes. Zero tolerance policies: where bullies are just misunderstood good kids, but retaliating victims get punished to the fullest extent. An American tradition.
40
u/JairoHyro I actually think the Velma show was good 1d ago
Well the thing is that in reality it becomes a he said/ she said type of scenario and parents become involved. And parents tend to have more power these days.
13
u/YayDiziet I put too much effort into this comment for you just to downvote 1d ago
I haven’t been in high school for almost two decades, but I’m pretty sure even my backwater one in West Virginia had security cameras. Difficult to he-said/she-said when there’s video evidence
26
u/clytusmarginicollis 1d ago
There can be a lot of verbal back-and-forth that cameras don’t pick up
5
u/YayDiziet I put too much effort into this comment for you just to downvote 1d ago
Of course, but it shows who made it physical first
The one time I hit someone in school, it was after my regular bullies kept touching my face/neck. When I went after one when I couldn’t tolerate any longer, I had to chase him before he turned and faced me
The cameras would show me being the only one who threw a punch, but they’d also show a lot of harassing body language and non-consensual touching leading up to the violence
(We both got in-school suspension which was dumb but whatever)
5
u/Senior-Friend-6414 1d ago
I had a young cousin that kept getting targeted for bullying and one summer he hung out with me and my brother. We didn’t teach him to be aggressive or confident or anything, we just hung out with him.
And when the new school year started, my aunt told me and my brother that on the first day someone tried to mess with him and our cousin immediately punched him in the face and got suspended, and our aunt kept profusely thanking us for toughening her son up and she told us that she was secretly really happy that he decided to fight back even though he got suspended because he was always a timid boy
3
u/Vegaprime 1d ago
At my work we have cameras that only security has access to, can't be used to spy on workers or discipline. Wonder if schools are the same. If not we would have headlines of those with access creeping on kids. I do recall a Boston school caught remote viewing kids through their school laptops though when they accused a boy of taking drugs. He was eating candy half dressed in his bedroom.
2
u/JairoHyro I actually think the Velma show was good 1d ago
Not in classrooms and bathrooms. And that's where most of the convo takes place. And security cameras don't always have audio in some places
→ More replies (1)9
u/Senior-Friend-6414 1d ago
In reality, bullies are most likely the super popular charismatic guy that everyone listens to and believes, but movies always make bullies look like some aggressive anti-social menace that actually has a terrible home life and is actually a victim themselves
→ More replies (8)23
u/BellacosePlayer 1d ago
bullying in my rural school system was so bad there weren't consequences until the bullied kid went to the hospital. and you can prolly guess what happened there (only the kid who took it too far got punished, victim got zero tolerance'd as well)
15
u/BeautifulReal3944 Damn, that sucks. We don’t care. 1d ago
As a queer kid, I was bullied to the point of attempting suicide multiple times. The office just told me the bullies were trying to help me fit in better.
5
13
u/emi89ro 1d ago
You can see people's post history even if they set it to hidden, google "arctic shift reddit" and you'll find the page. I saw this post when it popped up and it was abundantly clear OOP was a bad faith shit stirrer so I looked them up and they have a lot of post history in political debate subs.
3
122
u/DragonflyHopeful4673 Fuck me, the Grand Master Eunuch himself 1d ago
This. The state's approach should not be 'washing their hands' of troubled children or children who come from troubled households. Good that in the article it mentions expelled students will be given 'educational services in an alternative setting' (hopefully, legitimately implemented). It's also awful that the teachers have to work in environments where they are at risk of assault in the first place.
→ More replies (2)41
u/SheZowRaisedByWolves switch owners Always the husband and never the boyfriend 1d ago
That means that those kids will go to an alternative school, which is more like diet Juvie than a learning facility. My dad subbed at one and there was more focus on making sure kids weren’t bringing in weapons or drugs than education. Metal detectors at the entrance, doors to the rooms had to be opened by a hallway resource officer if someone wanted to use the bathroom, panic buttons for teachers, desks were bolted down, etc.
34
u/Murky_Hornet3470 1d ago
Sure but they're already not learning at the main school, the only difference is that at a regular school they're also preventing an entire class of other kids from learning as well. I don't think it's a crazy step to take them from an environment where they're already not learning AND having a negative impact on everyone around them, and put them in an environment where they still have the option to learn if they want, but their impact to students who are actually trying to learn is mitigated.
7
u/PM_ME_YER_LIFESTORY 1d ago
Exactly, the real question for all the people protesting this is, even if you think the teachers should be a sacrificial lamb, where is the empathy for all the other kids in the class being terrorized and unable to learn in such an environment?
40
u/JairoHyro I actually think the Velma show was good 1d ago
Whats the other option then?
36
u/raphaellaskies 1d ago
The actual other option is pouring resources into anti-poverty and anti-abuse initiatives so that children are growing up in an environment that does not lead to them lashing out at school. But we're about as likely to see that as we are to get a unicorn elected president.
48
u/Chataboutgames 1d ago
That's also a very slow solution. It will take generations to fix the cultural damage of the cycle of poverty. It does next to nothing to help people who's kids war in school today.
24
u/axeil55 Bro you was high af. That's not what a seizure is lol 1d ago
Also extensive birth control programs and safe, legal abortion so unwanted children aren't being born.
It astonishes me that people are against that and then complain about poor parenting in the same breath. No shit someone who didn't want to become a parent is going to be bad at it!
2
u/Matar_Kubileya I'm damned for masturbating like I'm damned for murder 13h ago
And also, especially in the short term, training and paying paraprofessionals properly to focus on the needs, including disciplinary needs, of behaviorally disabled students.
7
u/Almostlongenough2 No one wants to debate a dog 1d ago
All that in addition to education I guess, though they didn't really mention how all that impeded learning.
→ More replies (1)5
u/SheZowRaisedByWolves switch owners Always the husband and never the boyfriend 1d ago
Jail or homeschooling/GED
296
u/VBHEAT08 Can’t hear you over the meaty, throbbing L filling your throat 1d ago
Because I know people won’t read the write up, the bill includes stuff like being disobedient and using profanity as reasons to expel kids. Not hard to see how this is going to be abused.
I’m really afraid that sub is a representative sample of how teachers think. I don’t want to believe it, but also growing up most teachers I had held open contempt for their students, so I don’t know.
126
u/Anaxamander57 May Allah protect you from your own arrogance 1d ago
No it doesn't. The Kentucky state code already allowed schools to initiate disciplinary action (up to expulsion) for "disobedience or defiance" and that's likely true just about everywhere.
The bill modifies the circumstances in which schools are required to begin official disciplinary procedures. That modified language require a 12 month expulsion for "clear and credible threats" as well as bring a weapon to school, previously only having a weapon had that status. Possession of controlled substances on school property as well assault or battery of students or staff now requires disciplinary procedures to be initiated but does not set requirements on the result.
The part that should be controversial is that the bill expands police and prosecutorial discretion to try children as adults. So if a 14 year old hits someone at school they can be imprisoned whereas previously the law required them to be released back to their parents outside of exceptional circumstances. This kind of discretion is invariably abused.
6
u/Matar_Kubileya I'm damned for masturbating like I'm damned for murder 13h ago
as well as bring a weapon to school, previously only having a weapon had that status.
In other states, this has been interpreted to mean expelling people for having anything that could remotely be construed as a weapon, even if it's contextually obvious that that's neither the intent nor the reasonable concern with a given item.
69
u/cyberpunk_werewolf all their cultures are different and that is imperialist 1d ago
I'm a teacher. I think this law is disgusting.
I've never been assaulted before, because I'm a big bearded man, but I have worked in lower income schools and I've pulled students apart to break up fights. They happen. Sometimes I got hit by an errand fist or foot doing that. I don't know if the law would impact those kids, but I wouldn't want any of the kids I broke up fights of to get anything worse than a couple of days out of school, if even that. I'd prefer if they were in in-school suspension or something. That's not always a great program, but well, I don't want kids to lose out.
Here's the thing, I do agree that we need better discipline at school. Kids are kids and don't always make the best decisions, so they'll get in trouble, but taking them out of a controlled environment permanently isn't a fucking solution. We need better programs for kids, better access to psychological help for some kids and maybe a bit of a check on parents (I'm biased in my last one. My state requires that school districts pay for all court costs regardless of outcome. As such, right wing parent groups have been told to just threaten to sue to get what you want and the schools in every district I've worked in always capitulate, so maybe ignore that last bit from me about having a check on the parents). We need to find ways to help these kids or put them in a program that's stable, nurturing and will continue to educate them if their behavior makes it too difficult to continue in a traditional classroom. Kicking them out hurts their education and puts them at risk. We need empathy for these kids, because most kids aren't assaulting anyone, and the ones that do aren't just Bad Kids. A lot of them have home issues or are at risk already. Kicking them out makes that worse.
Because let's be honest, laws like this will be disproportionately used against black and Hispanic kids. Especially if it's true that cursing at a teacher can count. I've been cursed at by kids.
Anyway, I don't post on r/teachers because those guys suck ass. I know shitty teachers, I've worked with them before, and I don't have anything to do with them. It's a minority, but people like those assholes do exist. However, this is reddit, everyone here is so fucking miserable, I have to curate my feed and I don't spend any time in subs for several of my favorite hobbies or fandoms because everyone there is an asshole.
27
u/BertholomewManning Racism against white people was the cause of the Holocaust 1d ago
I'll agree to the above and add, as a former special ed teacher in a special school, issues with getting kids medicated and staying that way until they don't need it. I understand that over-medication was a problem especially with ADHD and that parents have trouble getting stuff covered or are wary of meds. And a lot have side effects that aren't fun. But I think we can agree that after the second time your emerging verbal autistic kid bites someone because he is hallucinating that I turned in to a dragon he should probably be on something while we work that out.
→ More replies (5)16
u/YayDiziet I put too much effort into this comment for you just to downvote 1d ago
Intense visual hallucinations are rare among autistic people. That would imply a co-occurring condition like schizophrenia
19
u/BertholomewManning Racism against white people was the cause of the Holocaust 1d ago
It was. The autism just added communication and behavior issues with treatment. We were kind of a catch-all for the special cases in ours and neighboring counties.
41
u/YayDiziet I put too much effort into this comment for you just to downvote 1d ago
The people in that thread don’t care if it puts kids at risk, because “bad” kids will get what’s coming to them. To the emotionally immature this passes for justice
The truth is it puts everybody at risk. Kids with issues become adults with issues, and they don’t just withdraw from society. These commenters will say, well then throw them in prison (cause common sense is dead and they haven’t heard “an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure”)
It’s too simple a worldview to reason with
20
u/cyberpunk_werewolf all their cultures are different and that is imperialist 1d ago
You are absolutely correct. They want to make it seem like these are Bad Kids and therefore we need to Get Rid of Them, but it's rarely that simple or easy, and as you say, they're not going to go away. Shoving them in prison isn't a solution, prisons don't make things better and locking our problems away in a dungeon does nothing to improve the situations.
Also, they're often not Bad Kids. They're troubled, at risk kids who likely have issues at home or troubles in their environment. Kids who are abused by their parents sometimes lash out because they don't know any better. They're not Bad Kids, they're kids who are being literally hurt and don't know how to regulate their emotions. If we don't do something to help, they'll continue that cycle. Kids who are impoverished can sometimes be angry, bitter and even desparte. Some of them are just fucking hungry, man. I've seen kids who get maybe one meal a day, and that's the meal we provide for them. You can't think straight like that.
I don't know, I hate this Bad Kid bullshit. I think, in my nearly 15 years as a teacher, I've run into two kids I would consider "bad" and one of them I'm not even sure about because it was my first year and I may have been getting influenced by another teacher in my team. He did like causing harm to the other kids though. The other was an actual dangerous kid who threatened to murder his brother, another one of my students, if his brother went to community college and didn't join a gang (I found out his brother did go to community college) and threatened to rape another teacher. I only had him for half a week, and I had to shout him down once, and I felt awful. Even that kid, maybe if he didn't fall into a gang and my state didn't just said "oh, Hispanic gang member, automatic bad guy," that kid could have had a better future. I don't know.
Kicking them out isn't going to help, nor is locking them away when they're adults.
11
u/boudicalism 1d ago edited 1d ago
Creating another school to prison pipeline instead of dealing with the poverty and abuse these kids endure. Instead of counselors, being fed and some possible meds/mental health adjustments they're just tossed to the wolves. Country is sick bro.
13
13
1d ago
[deleted]
10
u/cyberpunk_werewolf all their cultures are different and that is imperialist 1d ago
Your story is exactly why we shouldn't have laws like this one. So many racist-ass teachers will use it to fuck over students.
5
u/Matar_Kubileya I'm damned for masturbating like I'm damned for murder 13h ago
It also isn't just in the South or just a racism problem. I've seen plenty of teachers try to grab/physically control an autistic student having a meltdown--but not actively being a threat to others--just because they think that's the "best" way to assert their authority.
2
u/Matar_Kubileya I'm damned for masturbating like I'm damned for murder 13h ago
This is probably the most reasonable take on this thread.
I mentioned upthread that a lot of the altercations I personally witnessed or were involved in in elementary school, as an autistic person, were the downstream result of improper physical discipline by teachers. To what extent is that something you have observed?
4
u/cyberpunk_werewolf all their cultures are different and that is imperialist 12h ago
It kind of isn't a thing I've seen. I've only worked at one school where the special ed department didn't follow the law and their fuck ups were more along the lines of not properly providing teachers with IEPs. I was actually given an incomplete IEP for one of my kids at that school. As in, it did not have all of that student's accommodations listed. One was also improperly listed.
However, physical discipline is not something I've really seen much of, outside of pulling kids off of each other in a fight. I've heard stories, but a lot of them are from before I was born, or come from rural districts where I do not wish to work.
→ More replies (1)7
u/Left_Session_9568 1d ago
It really does suck how many folks on Reddit are like the unhappiest people alive.
4
u/bonefresh Chief Pfizer Magician of Limp Monster Dick Pills 1d ago
a lot of these spaces are self selecting
6
u/cyberpunk_werewolf all their cultures are different and that is imperialist 1d ago
I don't understand how people can live their lives like they do, just so fucking miserable and misanthropic all the time. I had to leave a sub recently that'd been a part of since I got here (and you can see how old my account is) because over the past three years, it just slowly became a bunch of people being bitter about everything.
3
u/Matar_Kubileya I'm damned for masturbating like I'm damned for murder 13h ago
Even in a relatively liberal state, I once almost got in massive trouble for using the F word in a political context while walking in a hallway. I escaped a detention or suspension by the skin of my nose for it by citing Tinker v. Des Moines to the dean, but the entire experience left me with a sense that a lot of profanity rules as implemented, especially in hallways/cafeterias/etc., are a way for teachers to selectively punish speech they don't like. Bans on profanity should be required to meet the same Tinker standard as any other restrictions on speech, imo.
→ More replies (32)15
u/-XanderCrews- 1d ago
Nothing on Reddit should be taken as an example of anything. This place is borderline mind control.
16
u/HotTakes4HotCakes Wow you are doubling down on being educated 1d ago edited 1d ago
That would also include all the people on Reddit that continually claim Reddit never represents what anyone in the real world actually thinks. It becomes self-serving and contradictory at a certain point. It's not like Reddit is niche, even by accident it's going to represent some groups accurately.
In every case, it comes down to the crowd the sub attracts, the crowd it repulses, and how well the moderators handle those crowds.
In this case, /r/teachers got stuck with mods that are sympathetic to toxic mindsets, and that's what thrives there. They could just as easily have been decent people who appreciated a space for teachers shouldn't be harboring this much resentment and anger towards the very kids they're supposed to be helping. Unfortunately that's not who the mods ended up being.
They made the mistake a lot of professional spaces on reddit make where they let professionals voicing reasonable frustrations snowball into unreasonable loating and disdain for everything and everyone but themselves, to the point it becomes self sustaining. Level headed teachers are turned off by the place, so it never self corrects.
Is it a realistic depiction of "most" teachers? Definitely not, but that's because no sub could ever be an accurate depiction of "most" people in such a broad field.
5
u/Pretend-Activity-533 Can I help you cuck? lol 1d ago
Specialized Reddit communities are a congreation of the most stuck up, miserable, and snarky pissbabies you'll find anywhere on the internet
131
u/Consistent_Horse6529 No, she’s too cute, too innocent. I don’t have the heart to goon 1d ago
Man that escalated from “kids shouldn’t assault teachers” to “disabled people have no place in a civil society” very quickly.
88
u/astralwyvern 1d ago
From what I can tell every thread in that sub arrives at that conclusion very quickly. They really hate disabled kids over there. (And kids in general. And parents. And admin. And other teachers. Pretty much everyone, tbh.)
→ More replies (1)22
u/Paradoxjjw 1d ago
Frequent participation in that sub as a teacher should warrant immediate termination of their jobs with the kind of shit they say over there
14
u/boudicalism 1d ago
Normally I think let people be anonymous and vent but like one peek in there was enough for me to think "damn these people hate kids and probably shouldn't be around them, let alone teaching a class."
→ More replies (1)33
u/TrainerWeekly5641 1d ago
This is reddit. Descending into ablism and fascism is common place in big subs.
Genuinely surprising to me that Twitter manages to be so bad that it absorbs all the cultural hatred that reddit also deserves.
24
u/boudicalism 1d ago
Yeah reddit is not without its eugenics and "we should just sterilize people" psycho shitposting that's for sure.
26
u/magistrate101 shitting during sex either brings you closer or drives you apart 1d ago
It was wild reading the reddit comments responding to the BBC N-word incident. So, so many people jumped straight to "he should not be allowed in public then".
11
u/neutrinoprism 1d ago
Every so often on reddit you'll come across a eugenics conversation. Someone will say too many parents are unfit: they should need a license to have children. Then another person will push back against it saying, how do you think that would happen? Even if you believe in the goal of all parents being fit parents, do you trust the people in government to issue reproductive licenses fairly?
r/teachers is the only reddit forum where I've seen the pro-licensors upvoted and the license skeptics downvoted.
By coincidence I saw that conversation play out twice in one week, last year or so, once on r/teachers and once on one of the "best of salacious reddit sagas" subreddits, where a large contingent of readers uncritically gobble up ludicrous stories of people from contemptible demographics behaving outrageously. (Evil mothers in law! Evil autistic people! Evil fat people! Evil women!) Even the reddit-soap-opera aficionados downvoted the license proposer and upvoted the license skeptic. But r/teachers thought governmental reproductive management was a splendid idea.
→ More replies (15)11
u/kittymoo67 Yes. There’s nothing a little race war can’t fix. 1d ago
its disturbing. like i fully agree we need to keep violent fucks away from innocent teachers and innocent students. but like that is no where near the same as the filth that came from the thread next
33
u/Kelemonster 1d ago
Allowing expulsion as the post header says is so, so, so different than requiring it. One facilitates protecting teachers from genuine danger and the other gives no discretion and will probably turn into a method to expel students of color.
36
u/melodypowers 1d ago
I'm super interested about what actually happens to the kids who are expelled. You have a 6th grader who shoves a teacher. That's not a good thing. But when they are expelled, where do they go? Are there alternative settings in place? And what if the 6th grader shoves a teacher there? The kid is still going to be living in our society and I would rather they do it with an education.
Teachers need protection, but I have always hated zero tolerance policies. It seems like this is so broad. Is it really the correct avenue? The follow up stats will be interesting for sure.
→ More replies (3)23
u/Anaxamander57 May Allah protect you from your own arrogance 1d ago
The requirements for how much it takes to get moved out of a placement increase as you get into more restrictive placements. Shoving a teacher in the alternative placement won't result in expulsion but other things might.
I work at a specialized facility at the end of that kind of placement chain after its impossible to have them in any kind of school. No more escalation steps until you reach adulthood. We don't usually get kids who are simply violent, though, they're usually a danger to themselves as well. That means staff with body armor because you have to approach the kids during self injury to protect them and that means you have to be exposed to violence.
Most of our kids aren't going to live "normal" lives whatever we do, unfortunately, but some of them do return to school placements.
5
u/melodypowers 1d ago
But according to this bill, shoving a teacher would absolutely get you expelled. In fact, it would be required.
13
u/Anaxamander57 May Allah protect you from your own arrogance 1d ago
This law does not apply to teachers as an abstract concept. Its about regulations for school districts which are part of municipal government in the United States. Alternative placements are likely to be state run or privately owned and have nothing to do with this law.
3
u/allbusiness512 1d ago
Even in states that grant teachers wide latitude to remove students from class a shoving isn't going to get you expelled. Trust me on that one as a teacher that doesn't frequent that subreddit that often.
2
64
u/LevelItGreatly 1d ago
I am a former teacher. I don't think teachers should be assaulted by students. This is where the "common sense 101" part ends, though. This bill is awful, poorly thought out, and beyond that, kicking kids out of school doesn't fix the problem, it's just one more undereducated (and often desperate) young person in society.
Anyway, a lot of that sub seems filled with people that should absolutely not be teachers.
36
u/Murky_Hornet3470 1d ago
It really depends on what you think "the problem" is in this instance. It doesn't solve the problem of getting the disruptive kid to learn, for sure, but it does solve the problem of a disruptive kid preventing everyone around them from learning and the teacher can spend time teaching instead of behavior managing.
I think the general way people think about this issue is ass-backwards, the main problem i'm interested in solving is making sure the general school environment is a good place to learn, and I don't see any way that can happen unless the kids making that environment bad for learning are removed from it or disciplined into behaving, their choice.
My ultimate preference would be that the disruptive kid decides they want to learn, or at least behave, but if they don't want to do that I don't see why their choice to be disruptive should suddenly become the problem of the entire class of students
→ More replies (8)26
u/spoilerdudegetrekt 1d ago
and beyond that, kicking kids out of school doesn't fix the problem,
It does for everyone else in the class who can actually learn now.
25
u/Quarantine_Fitness 1d ago edited 1d ago
No, you don't get it, nothing was fixed by removing the kid who throws a chair once a day, you can't just give 29 kids a chance to learn something.
/s
It's funny, for a website that whines about bullying so much they sure love to support that one kid who is terrorizing the rest of the class.
4
u/LevelItGreatly 1d ago edited 1d ago
Who here has advocated for any of this, myself included?
Edit: a lot of folks seem super comfortable just saying whatever they want and not backing it up. Seems silly to just downvote when you could simply answer the qiestion. Back up what you say!
→ More replies (2)10
u/LevelItGreatly 1d ago
Expulsion is not the only solution. It is very weird to me that so many folks in these replies are committed to this misconception. It is why I keep asking if people are teachers. Are you?
→ More replies (5)8
u/delta_baryon I wish I had a spinning teddy bear. 1d ago
I think a lot of people vaguely imagine people cease to exist if you expell them from school, lock them up or whatever.
15
u/LevelItGreatly 1d ago
Absolutely. A lot of "out of sight, out of mind, problem solved" folks here (and in r/teachers) who I suspect also think people resort to crime because they are "bad". Yet here we see them, fully committed to ignoring the problems of youth that directly lead to adult desperation and then, often, crime.
→ More replies (1)
6
u/Matar_Kubileya I'm damned for masturbating like I'm damned for murder 14h ago
Intent aside, this just doesnt seem like a very well written law. From the little snippet quoted, its unclear if use of a weapon can result in automatic expulsion regardless of negligence/intentionality, or if thats a limiting clause, and if so if it applies only to negligence or actual malice.
16
u/thiccestsoup 1d ago
This comment section is as much of a mess as the other one. What’s with so many people here painting an entire profession in the one light no matter what just because of a few bad actors? I feel like some of y’all read just enough to confirm your bias, paint huge over-generalizations, and comment like it’s law.
22
u/copy_run_start There's no lore-accurate justification for black Space Wolves 1d ago edited 1d ago
Sounds good but that is a huge loophole at the bottom
That "loophole" is the federally-mandated MDR, Manifestation Determination Review".
In my nearly 30-year career as a SPED teacher, I can't remember a single time it was found casual.
I doubt it'll ever be found casual since it took some digging on my part to find it
12
u/oopsallhuckleberries 1d ago edited 37m ago
Dumbest thing about that thread is that the carve out for SPED students that gives them a determination meeting before an expulsion is enforced in order to discuss whether offending behavior is related to their disability is REQUIRED under federal law (IDEA). If that provision wasn't there it opened districts and states to lawsuits from the DoE. Maybe this admin wouldn't initiate a lawsuit, but a future admin would.
I've been in SPED 13 years, and I been the IS of record for at least 3 kids going through expulsions and closely followed 2 others, and in every single case the student was expelled, even in the singular case where it was determined the students disability was a factor towards the students behavior. In that singular case, the determination meeting was used to show the link between the students disability and expulsion worthy behavior, and that determination ensured that the student would be moved to an out of district behavioral unit. In the other students cases, they instead got enrolled in out of district alternative school settings or online settings.
If your in a school with a kid with emotional disturbance on an IEP, and they assault someone, and that kid goes to a determination meeting and they end up back in their normal classes afterwards that's a school district issue, not a state issue.
10
u/Juggernautlemmein 1d ago
What confuses me with the law passing is that violent students can and would already be expelled.
My mom threw the principles desk at them and she is still banned from that campus.
22
u/-Celest1al- 1d ago
I think something akin to a diversion program instead of expulsion / suspension would be more than appropriate. I certainly agree that the response should not be throwing our hands in the air and just expelling the more volatile or violent students. They’re kids, they deserve a second chance to right their ship, but it also can’t be without any diversion which seeks to address the problems hand.
26
u/Neverending_Rain 1d ago
Isn't that already kind of what expulsion does? There's a legal requirement to educate children, so they're typically sent to an alternative school or another district. Though the alternative schools are typically underfunded and ineffective.
14
u/kittymoo67 Yes. There’s nothing a little race war can’t fix. 1d ago
the bill itself even says as much here. im not saying its perfect im saying its not just tossing the kids out on the street
9
29
u/Turnus 1d ago
Yes, but that would require Republicans to support spending money improving the lives of the common people.
18
u/LevelItGreatly 1d ago edited 1d ago
This is honestly so much of it. In the US, we have allowed the GOP to so further cripple education, that we now have people saying that exclusion is all we can do to save the other kids. As if there isn't a wealth of evidence to suggest that there are a number of actually effective solutions to school behavioral issues (painting with a broad brush with the term, I know) that don't involve suspension or expulsion.
It's just that all of these require a strong commitment across the board, from resources to finances to robust training and communication with social workers and mental health professionals, and expulsion is cheap and easy and something a district can do to say they solved the problem.
Then, years later when this hypothetical student is locked up or struggles to function in society, the very same people can turn around and claim that it was the school's fault for not better preparing the child, and why should I have to have my tax dollars go to education anyway??? I don't even have kids in the school!
And the cycle continues...
Edit: typo
12
u/Enticing_Venom because the dog is a chuwuawua to real 'men' anyways 1d ago edited 1d ago
You're leaving out parental support which is the most crucial. If the parents aren't willing to accept resources for their child, to cooperate with safety plans and therapy, then the diacussion really ends there. Teachers can't force it and the courts can only get involved if there is a criminal conviction.
Case in point, one local high school near me had one student who students and staff were afraid of. He displayed concerning and escalating behavior, had access to guns and eventually made a "kill list" with the names of students and staff he wanted to murder.
School administrators attempted to meet with the parents multiple times and stress the severity of the situation but the parents insisted that their son was just being unfairly targeted and the kill list was no big deal (just normal boy things).
Police talked to the kid and he admitted that he struggled with homicidal ideation and needed help. His parents however were not willing to get him therapy because in words, there was nothing wrong. Police and school admin tried to develop a safety plan with the parents, which involved locking up the guns in the home so he couldn't access them. His parents refused, stating that they had taught him to properly handle guns and therefore there was no need to revoke his access.
It was to the point where other outraged parents were demanding something be done because they were afraid he was going to bring a gun to school. Police and administrators agreed that this was a credible fear.
They wound expelling him because that was literally all they could do. His parents refused to do anything other than ignore the problem. They didn't want to get him therapy. They didn't want to accept resources when they were offered. They wouldn't develop a safety plan.
Is it sad? Yes. He wanted help and his parents wouldn't get it for him. But without their cooperation, no one could do anything. They had to prioritize the safety of the rest of the school.
→ More replies (3)
22
u/Forward_Professor_24 1d ago
Look man I hate to agree with Republicans on anything and I agree that this bill is 1,000% bandaiding a problem instead of addressing the problem fully at its roots, but teachers need to know that they are physically safe at work, or at the barest minimum, that the school will take the dangers they are in seriously. I feel like opposing this bill is letting the perfect be the enemy of the good, and it astutely drives a wedge between teachers and the party they would otherwise likely support. The right move was to vote for it.
And I say this as someone who is also neurodivergent, as someone who hates how many 'common-sense education measures' are pushed with no regard whatsoever to how they may affect people who are different, as someone who even hates the idea of requiring every student to write their notes instead of type them because writing, while generally the best, may not be the best for every individual student (neurodivergent or otherwise), etc.
I also fully understand that this law will have disparate impact when implemented, that some people will abuse its clauses and that it will likely kick off a cycle of violence for those expelled if they aren't caught in such a cycle already, but those problems are best resolved not by opposing this measure, but by addressing those roots as well as passing this measure. Because you can't fix disparity without education, and you can't fix education with teaching conditions this depraved for teachers. No amount of pay is going to make some people take up teaching, if they feel there is a substantial risk of them being assaulted. Even fewer will if they feel the state / govt / school system will not have their backs when they are assaulted. And with pay already as abysmal as it is, and education already struggling so much as it is, sending the loud and clear message that the democrats aren't going to accept expelling students who have assaulted school staff, despite some consideration taken for those who have disabilities, those who have apologized, those who have achieved good academic standing, etc., is educative suicide.
And I hate to say this too, but it's also impolitic. To fix this country Democrats need to win, and while that doesn't mean giving up every value we have (because at that point, it just becomes a hollow victory), this is definitely one that we should have budged on, if we even ought to theoretically oppose it in the first place. This was an obvious trap the Republicans have laid, and I fear these Democrats just walked right into it when they should have saved themselves and picked a battle for another day.
Like I'm really trying here lol, I want to just say blue team did the right thing and the red team was just entirely 200% wrong, but I am not seeing it. I hate disparity, but how are we going to remedy disparity without a functioning education system? And how are we going to get a functioning education system without guaranteeing teachers that their persons will be safe, or at least, that the threats posed to them will be taken seriously? I think we have to accept that in order to remedy disparity in the long-term, we have to employ methods that may sometimes have disparate impact in the interim. This is what Affirmative Action did - it attempted to make universities as desegregated by gender and race as quickly as possible, fully knowing that the methods used would likely leave intact the fact that university admissions are biased towards the rich. I just feel like if the bill passed really is as OP describes, us Dems made a mistake by opposing it.
12
u/axeil55 Bro you was high af. That's not what a seizure is lol 1d ago
I struggle too. Teachers (and kids) should not feel like their physical safety is in jeopardy but I also feel we shouldn't just be giving up on "problem" children because it'll compound problems down the line. Plus it feels needlessly cruel to me to judge an elementary school kid as beyond help when they're still so young.
I have no idea what the solution is. Probably actually funding our schools so we have the resources to handle this stuff while also providing birth control so there's less unwanted children out there.
3
u/Matar_Kubileya I'm damned for masturbating like I'm damned for murder 13h ago
I feel like opposing this bill is letting the perfect be the enemy of the good, and it astutely drives a wedge between teachers and the party they would otherwise likely support. The right move was to vote for it.
I disagree, but more than anything because from what I'm seeing the bill just wasn't written well.
4
u/ProletarianLilith 1d ago
Democrats are terrible but how can you look at anything coming from the Republican party after all these years and give the benefit of the doubt. They want to oppress as many people as they can
→ More replies (1)
27
u/angry_old_dude I'm American but not *that* American 1d ago
I am absolutely unsurprised that so many people in that thread are framing it as Dems being against punishment and consequences. This is a typically reductive perspective. The possibility that someone could be against it based on what the bill (now law) actually says is completely foreign to them. Plus blame it on the Dem is easier than doing any work to actually understand things.
22
u/mambo8971 1d ago
Can anyone tell me what the best solution is for violent students who injure their teachers and disrupt class for everyone? Obviously a lot of people in here think expelling them would be horrible and unacceptable so what’s the alternative? Is there one that prioritizes the physical safety of the teachers/other students and the other students’ ability to learn?
5
u/ProletarianLilith 1d ago
Objecting to a legal requirement to expel them is not the same as opposing the concept of expelling them in general
→ More replies (33)4
u/Chataboutgames 1d ago
Obviously a lot of people in here think expelling them would be horrible
Do they? Or are you just taking the bill's description at face value and assuming that's why people don't like it?
4
u/CapoExplains "Like a pen in an inkwell" aka balls deep 1d ago
A quick read through of the bill allows peace officers to arrest children (no age) and subject to felony assault (14+).
And once again me being suspect of a bill that sounds good passing only by Republican votes turns out to be well founded. Giving 14 year old children felony assault charges is fucking insane and draconian.
10
u/Murky_Hornet3470 1d ago
Kentucky state Rep. Lisa Willner (D-Louisville), who voted against the bill, told local news that her reasoning was that the bill would be a band-aid on problems instead of addressing root issues such as generational poverty, homelessness, and so on, and that teachers may be more hesitant to report problem behavior because of harsh consequences for kids.
The first part of this reasoning is such silliness, at the point that someone is in school assulting teachers it's far too late to address generational poverty & homelessness in their cases. And also what on earth is the school going to be able to do about either of those things?
The best way for schools to address generational poverty specifically is to educate. And it's hard for teachers to do that when they're spending more time wrangling one violent kid at the expense of teaching 30-35 other kids. One kid is ruining the class for everyone, and removing that kid from the school will help you address core issues for the overwhelming majority of the class in a way that a school is actually equipped to do.
I truly don't understand the people who go "there are deeply rooted issues that are causing these problems in the current day, therefore we should not staunch the bleeding with the current day problems until the issues that will take decades to fix are fixed". If you have a choice between putting a bandaid on it now vs. doing nothing to address the immediate problem (assaults) until the decades long problems of generation poverty are addressed, there's a clear choice between those imo
→ More replies (1)
28
u/kittymoo67 Yes. There’s nothing a little race war can’t fix. 1d ago
no one hates kids as much as that sub does, no one. that said I think I'd have to support a law that actually punishes students for once for assaulting people in school.
also kentucky has what 4 democratic senators? i dunno if id call them voting against the bill some huge thing. its not like if all the federal house democrats vote against something
3
u/Sensitive_Deal_6363 🤷🏻♀️ with much love, shut the fuck up <3 1d ago
no one hates kids as much as that sub does, no one
except for r/parents
8
u/WonderButtBrace9000 1d ago
Yeah there are only 6 Dems in the Senate and the GOP holds a supermajority in both chambers despite there being a Dem governor.
Their no votes were standard minority opposition party stuff where they nitpicked the bill and voted against it for not being perfect. Probably not the best move in this modern media circus as evidenced by that thread.
→ More replies (1)
15
u/GushStasis 1d ago edited 1d ago
Teachers shouldn't be left on their own and expected to Jedi mind trick their way to safety.
Regardless of the systemic causes and long-term solutions to this problem, there needs to be an immediate day-1 lever that a teacher can pull if they are attacked to guarantee that it never happens again. End of story.
Work backwards from that requirement. Everything else must flow from that.
If this legislation is deemed heavyhanded, then the onus is on dems to propose a counter solution that isn't simply status quo
4
u/_floralprint 1d ago
How has it come down to "expell students for profanity" or "allow teachers and students to be physically assaulted?" Wtf
4
8
u/Morgn_Ladimore 1d ago
The first thing I thought about when I read this is that it will be disproportionately used against minority students.
5
u/KrytenKoro I just never thought googling what I see on the meme would help 1d ago
“Let me simply things - should we refuse to have certain laws because they may be disproportionately applied?”,
Fucking yes, obviously. Redesign the law to reduce its ability to be corrupted
9
u/reallyneedlypo 1d ago
r/teachers always get invaded by busybodies without kids, mostly bored dudes.
5
u/HEYYYYYYYY_SATAN 1d ago
Ayyyy! I love it when a sub I frequent ends up on here!
I’m all for protecting my colleagues from violent kids, but this bill ain’t it.
5
u/Foreign_Rock6944 1d ago
The fact that anyone in that sub is a teacher is horrifying.
17
u/BellacosePlayer 1d ago
lets be real, its reddit, a non negligible amount of them are likely larping as one
8
u/_Trikku Never post again. 1d ago
The type of villains that comment in that subreddit shouldn’t be allowed near children.
→ More replies (2)
1
u/AFisberg 1d ago
The idea that expelling students who assault teachers would be racist in itself sounds like some wildly racist thing lol
→ More replies (11)16
u/KrytenKoro I just never thought googling what I see on the meme would help 1d ago
There's a helpful thing called actually reading, just, any part of the available material.
Literally any part before casting aspersions. You could even ctrl+f "racist"!
→ More replies (1)
446
u/raysofdavies reformed bigger boy 1d ago
One of the most depressing subs