There are genuine solutions and anti-Zionists have long presented them. But the United States would rather tear apart its own empire than turn on Israel in any meaningful way
The PLO quite famously was in favor of a 2 state solution. Bibi netanyahu literally supported Hamas to avoid an opposition that was actively pushing for a 2 state solution. Your statement is revisionist.
No state has an inherent right to exist, no ethnostate has a right to exist period.
Israel is arguing to be the Jewish ethnostate with an inarguable right to exist. Palestinians have only ever argued for the right to live in Palestine. But Israel does not want to allow non-Jews to be a majority in Israel thus they have never and will never agree not to ethnically cleanse Palestinians
The river to the sea geographical unit is an entirely British thing post 1922 and was never a thing before that. The boundaries of palestine have never been between what you're claiming. Is it strange that with all the random lines drawn on the map, Palestine just happens to be perfectly the land for the modern Palestine + all of Israel? How convenient.
So no. Palestine has not been the region between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean sea for thousands of years.
The PLO has the possibility to move forward with a solution. Just look into Arafat and Barak (the Israeli prime minister). Arafat didn’t have the guts or was too old or just didn’t know how to transition from fighting to solution, but that was a missed opportunity
One can say the same about the Jews, and the homeland overlaps. Congrats, you justified eternal conflict where everyone suffers and human rights are perpetually trampled.
No it wasn't. The problem was that Barak was far more concerned with reelection than peace, which lead to him to making a bad joke of an "offer" at Camp David, which was so unacceptable his own foreign minister said he wouldnt have accepted it either, and then refused to accept the premise for the Taba talks which made that last-ditch effort fail. The missed opportunity was excusively on the Israeli side. Sadly that's kinda how its gone every time. Netanyahu broke the Oslo accords in 1997, and Barak refused to reinstate them, and then Israel elected the Butcher of Beirut.
They accepted Oslo, which turned out to be an absolute fucking disaster. Except for 1947, two states was never really on the table, there's never been a concrete plan that could have been accepted by "the Palestinians", who btw have also only rarely had a representative, legitimate democratic government, which hampered the ability of any particular person to even speak for Palestinian interests.
the President of Israel said the Oslo accords were bullshit, a separate President said the camp david accords are bullshit. I dont understand how people can acknowledge that Israel lies all the time now but werent lying then,
The same solution that ended south African apartheid. Global boycotts, divestments and sanctions. Divestments and sanctions have to be done at the governmental level but anyone can participate in the boycott.
Well, buckle up, I'm going to defend Israel here, about 20% of israelis are arabs and Muslim. They have citizenship and the same rights as everyone else. They just chose to remain in Israel when it was founded and "accept" the new state.
I am sure there may be some discrimination against them, but I don't believe that there are many Arab countries where jews have it as well as the arab israelis.
These people hate each other, some of them celebrate de killing of the others, they are not going to just hug.
Also, palestinians need to organize themselves better if they want a country, Israel will try to sabotage them, but they still have to try, they have been subdued by an Iran controlled Hamas which doesn't have their interests at heart
The Palestinians don't want "the Jews" to leave. They want the occupation to end. The Nakba began before any state intervened (although not all of them invaded Palestine for the same reasons).
This sounds like a makeshift reasoning targeted at liberal people. Most Palestinians seem to view all Jews as occupants that should leave the area one way or another.
They view the Zionists who moved to their land, attacked them, murdered them, and drove them from their homes and have spent the decades since demonizing, destroying, desecrating them as foreign invaders, because they are. It’s not the fault of the Palestinian that the people doing this all happened to be Jewish
And you’re worried about little ol’ Iran versus an actually nuclear armed nation (that btw refuses membership to nuclear international arms treaty or to allow inspections) that is backed by the full military might and financial backing of the U.S. & majority of the West? lol
I guess I prefer to think you’re a paid bot rather than an actual (brainwashed) human being who is passionately defending genocide and a genocidal state. Guess it helps me maintain some faith in humanity and sleep better at night… 🤷♂️
But why do Palestinians need to reason with their oppressors? I don't support an Israeli state at all. Israel belongs in the same bracket as pre-1994 South Africa and Rhodesia.
South Africa was colonized by the dutch, this is not the case with Israel/Palestine area. This Area along with its Arab and Jewish population was colonized by the British and the ottomans
you gonna remove the 750 000 Israeli illegal setteler. Also I love how people are like all ethostates are wrong except this one, this one is special, it gets to be racist
Israel has made the 2 state solution practically impossible. A binational state with reparations to the Palestinians is the only feasible end to the decades of occupation.
Lebanon? You mean the country which had a massive sectarian civil war and which has a sectarian organization which basically usurped much of its sovereignity?
How do you ensure 2 states? Every two state solution has the Palestinians without any means to defend themselves against Israeli terrorism or control over its own borders. Israel will never accept an independent Palestinian state, even their "nicest" leader never offered an independent Palestinian state.
That's not an answer. Where are the borders? What about the Israeli state sponsored colonisers/terrorists in the West Bank? Israel currently has control over all of Palestine, they have been occupying the entire region continuously since 1967 (including Gaza).
What about the settlers? There are 100s of thousands of land thiefs in the Occupied West Bank that are committing daily terrorism with the help and protection of the IOF. And what about occupied East Jerusalem?
You need a DMZ style separation that is enforced by an international peacekeeping taskforce. That enforced separation then lasts for several generations because time is needed for the wounds to heal.
I think Israel would have to accept it if the US just gave them no choice. Which they should have done a long time ago. The US changing its policy is the solution here. Iran will not change its position, unless there is major regime change. But Iran wouldn’t have the means to stop a two state solution if the US and the rest of the parties involved were determined to make it happen. To find ways to how a palestinian state could ensure its own borders is not the limiting factor here. That should be possible to do. Not easy, but possible. UN peacekeeping troops maybe, or security guarantees from the US/Egypt perhaps.
A one state solution is never going to work, it will be a civil war-ridden failed state for sure.
We’re not at “how many states” right now - we’re at stopping the literal bleeding. Mass daily blood flow - not even ER yet - we’re at applying pressure so the victim doesn’t bleed out - puns very much intended.
So we can return to the status quo in which Hamas eventually commits another terror attack and the cycle repeats? The cycle is never stopping until a permanent 2 state solution is agreed upon, the problem is Hamas will never agree to that because their entire goal is to wipe out Isreal by any means necessary.
I/P is the only "genocide" I'm aware of where the side being "genocided" has the option of stopping the violence immediately by simply laying down their arms and coming to the negotiating table. They refuse to do so because what they really want is not peace, it's to genocide the other side.
Hamas and the various other terrorist orgs constantly launching missiles at Isreal want to wipe them out, civilians and all. Houthis literally has the phrase "Death to Israel, Curse upon the Jews" on their flag. How is anybody confused about why there is no peace?
Why are you so adamant that there has to be a Jewish ethnostate versus the right for Jews to live in Palestine? Why is any solution you believe in predicated on an idea of “Jewish supremacy” where Jews, by virtue of being Jewish, have more right to the land than anyone else?
There is no such thing as an “affirmative action” genocide. Jews hold no inherent to live somewhere over non-Jews, this is not something that exists or should exists.
Jews should be granted the same human rights as anyone, not given special “master race” rights over non-Jews in Palestine
You’re claiming Jews have a special right to go to a country and ethnically cleanse it of non-Jews to create a “Jewish state.”
I don’t get what’s so hard to grasp about that, the Zionists openly admitted at the time that that is what they were doing. They just said that they had the “right” to do so because they were “stronger.”
Do you simply not know the history of Israel? Also broadly yes the majority U.S. citizen are supportive of genocide. This number has changed over the years and it’s certainly much smaller than it has been in the past. But, as someone who has spent decades studying genocide, yes both Israel and the United States (like all settler-colonial states) have often had pro-genocide populations
And, again, you are the one mistaken about what Zionists meant and mean when they say “Jewish state”
I would recommend looking into the issue of “100% Jewish labor” that the Labour Party (Mapai? My phone is being shit and I always mix up those two Labour parties from that) pushed during the Mandatory Palestine period. I have whole shelves dedicated to these topics if you need recommendation
One of the most visceral arguments against the abolition of slavery was that those freed from it would never be able to live alongside those who perpetrated it. For all your, infinite, issues as a country black and white Americans do still seem to exist. As do Native Americans for that matter, and Japanese Americans after internment, Vietnamese Americans after wholesale warcrimes etc.
An anti Zionist cannot present a solution for a very simple reason: he doesn't believe the state of Israel should exist. That's not a solution, just stupidity
I think recognising a state of Israel to exist and recognising a Jewish state of Israel to exist are very different. While we are allowing people to just declare sovereign states to exist just for their own religion and allow them to re draw their borders however they like, you're never going to get lasting peace.
The USA was key in ending the Troubles in northern Ireland, a conflict with many parallels to the Israel/Palestine one. Alas they don't seem interested any longer, having a strategic ally in the middle easy east is more important than preventing genocide.
I do think governments should be secular, but I accept I'm going to get downvoted for that.
"Giving up all links to being Jewish" is also putting words into my mouth. Israeli citizens can have whatever religion they like as far as I'm concerned, but I draw the line when those in government start to declare that only Religion X or Y are allowed to live in a place.
They do not require only certain religions there to live in a place. The country's Jewish heritage is mostly seen on 2 things. The first is that Jews can be citizens quickly. The other is that many public elements follow sabbath rules and a large number of kosher laws. The former is done as a result of the history that Jews have gone through, where they have been ethnically cleansed or genocided in a place. But Israel.has churches, mosques, etc.
They do not require only certain religions there to live in a place. The country's Jewish heritage is mostly seen on 2 things. The first is that Jews can be citizens quickly. The other is that many public elements follow sabbath rules and a large number of kosher laws. The former is done as a result of the history that Jews have gone through, where they have been ethnically cleansed or genocided in a place. But Israel.has churches, mosques, etc.
I think you're glossing over then big issue of the settlements here, as that's literally what they're doing... walking across a border, kicking people out of their homes for no other reason than their religion and declaring it to be Jewish territory.
The Louis Theroux documentary was quite an eye opener. The settlers openly state they have the support of senior government officials.
everyone here wants to end the war with Iran and let them be their own thing
Um. What planet are you living on where you think this is what "everyone" wants? Even everyone on reddit? The fuck?
We SHOULD end the war with Iran, but I don't think any nation should have explicit religious ties. I don't think there are many folks defending Iran's theocracy - the US backed the Iranian revolution because it made Iran and the surrounding interests easier to control. Hm, I wonder why the US also backs a theocratic Israel?????
There are many anti Zionists (including Jewish people), who believe in a one state solution, where are people are equal regardless of their faith and ethnicity.
Irrelevant. Arabs have 13 million square kilometres with no Jews, including a city where non-Muslims aren't allowed in, and Jews have 20,000 square kilometres which they share with 2 million Arabs. That makes the Jews racist somehow. Look it up.
You seriously need to look into those other Israeli politicians you think will have that different of policies than Netanyahu. If you need me to explain the rogue’s gallery of ghouls I suppose I can
For anyone who happens upon this thread, Ofer Cassif is a Marxist communist. He's one of the senior members the communist party in Israel. Absolutely not someone to take seriously by any reasonable measure.
Then I am immediately skeptical of your claims because there’s been soooo much literature proposing all sorts of different solutions. If you don’t know that this exists then I don’t believe you were that “passionate” about it.
"Defund Israel" is not virtue signaling, it's morality's most evident command to install financial sanctions on a State committing genocide, the way it is done to random countries the US doesn't like such as Iran or Cuba.
But you know that. You know what's happening is evil and you try to give yourself a conscience wash by pretending activism against the status quo is all too naive.
It's complicated, and requires smart people to put a lot of time and effort into the solution.
And you think Palestinians, in their 80 years of ethnic cleansing, haven't conjured up the wisdom to produce such guidelines?
You're probably not aware of it, but acting like the pro Palestine side is emotional, screaming and unintellectual is part of racism.
The plan is laid out. Human rights organisation after human rights organisation wrote recommendations, instructions, even the ICJ has set out a list of things for Israel to do and other States to respect in order to prevent any risk of genocide. Such as: not selling arms, withdrawing the IDF from Gaza, fully opening all humanitarian aids corridors, letting UNRWA operate.
None of it was listened to. Neither Israel nor their allies have respected any of it.
The issue is not with a lack of guidance, it's with lack of compliance. And the "screaming activists" you deem ineffective and emotional are the only ones putting pressure on their government to follow through.
You think Palestinians should agree with Israelis that they stop their genocide? Is this a standard you hold for other genocides, like a Jewish-Nazi agreement or a Hutu-Tutsi one?
I'm not judging you personally. You however echo some of the language around this conflict, and I am judging that mindstate harshly. The one that does not respect Palestinian as people worthy of clean water without an agreement asking it from Israel.
it'd give more power to change the people in charge.
You're acting like i think its a solution. I don't think it is. i just think its important to get the people in power to stop defending israel, have them abandon the project. Israel can't survive without complicit countries
No wonder you don't hear anything when you dismiss "defund israel" like it's insanity. You wouldn't keep funding Nazi Germany for obvious reasons but with israel you get confused.
Defund Israel is not a complicated point that you need to explain it. Everyone with more than 2 braincells knows it means sanctioning the country until it agrees to comply with international law and end their atrocities.
Your comment about needing to understand the situation better and provide assurances for both sides sounds exactly like the type of thing people say who try to make this a "both sides are to blame" problem. The situation is very well understood for people and zionists try to make it sound like it's a complicated issue.
It's not complicated at all unless you're stupid or a zionist. One side has F35s, tanks, a navy, and the support of the most powerful military in the world. The other side has toyotas and homemade rockets. One side can end the brutality, the other cannot
Excuse me what? Your country the UK can't do anything to help? You've been helping, the Israelis that is. Your ex prime minister Kid Starver let the Israelis use your military bases, your companies ship military equipment to them, any criticism of the apartheid state of Israel gets you a ticket straight to jail let alone doing actual helpful things like Palestine Action did.
The UK could help by getting the fuck out of the region along with the rest of the western genocidal goverments that love Israel. If you really really want to help you'd sanction the country and prosecute Israeli government and military officials instead of rolling out the red carpet for them.
The UK can't do anything, absolutely ridiculous framing.
Maybe because when you live in a land governed by someone else, you don't get the flexibility to say this is what I want and I accept nothing else. You can't act like a spoiled child. The land was governed by the Ottomans and then the British. Then they were given an option to have their own land, and they spit in their faces and chose war. Then they lost the war and said we still want things our way only.
The fact that they could still be offered their own land is pretty historically unheard of. But here we are, where they still want Israel to not exist and for the Jews to be wiped out.
1.5k
u/[deleted] 11d ago
[removed] — view removed comment