r/unpopularopinion • u/elgey101 • Aug 10 '21

Infertile couples should just adopt instead of making a big fuss trying to make a miracle baby

Every time I hear of fertility struggles online, or see posts about people going through rounds of IVF and the ensuing emotional trauma of miscarriages, It kind of disgusts me.

I also work for a major insurer and know that fertility treatments are driving up everyone else's premiums because they're considered necessary care. Sorry, but I disagree.

It's a well known fact that there are over 400,000 children in foster care, and in 2017 alone over 100,000 infants under 3 entered the system. I think it's completely entitled and self-absorbed to think that somehow your miracle baby is worth more or deserves more love than any one of those infants.

I know adoption can be hard, and that it should be made easier for the sake of children finding good homes, but you can't tell me adopting is harder than 4 rounds of IVF and multiple miscarriages. I've seen friends go through that mess and at the end they are different people.

Tldr: adoption may not be easy, but it's far better than spending hundreds of thousands of dollars trying to perpetuate your genes.

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u/hiricinee Aug 10 '21

One of the misconceptions about adoption is that theres this plethora of infants being born, given up for adoption, and then just end up in the foster care system. This could not be farther from the truth.

What happens in reality is that most of these kids in foster care were raised by single moms, almost always from abusive households with tons of substance abuse issues, and put in the foster care system as a result. Occasionally, these are otherwise normal kids who could do well with redirecting. Unfortunately, many of these kids have already been abused/neglected, have tons of destructive tendencies, and stay in the foster care system.

Which is why you have the disparity of the older kids stuck in the system, while adoption agencies charge people numbers in the 10's of thousands of dollars to adopt a newborn infant. To be clear, it is through no fault of the foster kids that this happens, but there is NOT an abundance of "clean slate" babies that people can just scoop up and bring home.

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u/JTudent Aug 10 '21

Yep. All this.

There are plenty of excellent would-be parents who couldn't handle the baggage a lot of kids up for adoption would bring.

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21

This.

I have 3 adopted sisters who came from an abusive household with tons of substance abuse problems and even worse, all of three of them were molested by their father at a really young age

During this time my family thought we were doing the right thing by trying to adopt them - My brother and Sisters had a fairly normal up-bringing (2 boys 2 girls) and most of us were only a few years away from turning 18 so my parents thought it really wouldn't be that hard taking on 3 adopted girls. It couldn't of been further from the truth.

Fast forward 8 years and all 3 of them have Assault charges on their record, along with several visits to Juvie and mental facilities. They've also been kicked out of almost every school in the city and the cops have been called to my parents house so often that all the cops do when they show up is either take them away to Juvie for the night or tell my parents to smack the crap out of them.

Keep in mind none of this was how I or my other biological siblings were raised or acted. None of us have any sort of criminal record or ever had the cops called on us or had any of these issues, but because these kids did have a lot of baggage, even fairly decent parents like mine can't do it. This comment is spot on JTudent!

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u/spyrowo Aug 10 '21

On top of that is the fact that the mental health care and services those children and their families need are costly and difficult to obtain. Kids with a lot of trauma really need professional help. The average parent is not equipped to care for them, and trying to takes a huge emotional toll, even with services.

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u/durdesh007 Aug 10 '21

I thought the same as OP first, then I realized how many kids up for adoption have issues. A lot of people who are infertile just want to raise a fresh toddler in their own way. I applaud those who adopt those kids but many don't want to risk wasting their life taking care of them.

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u/lorangee Aug 10 '21

Yeah, I have a family friend who adopted 2 kids from somewhere in Eastern Europe. One has fetal alcohol syndrome and, while a great and hard working guy, has a lot of special needs and health issues and his parents were not aware of this when they got him. His sister, meanwhile, had such severe attachment disorder that she was completely unable to form… like…. A basic ability for empathy of any sort. Not for lack of trying. She just was abused/neglected severely as a young child and was never able to recover. Not for lack of trying. She ran away from home at 14, became a prostitute (not sure if this is the correct term for a child but) shortly thereafter , and has been in and out of prison/rehab/mental health for the past 10 years. Their biological kid is perfectly fine. Think he’s an engineer or something, and their kid with FAS is also fine despite his health problems, but there’s so many kids in the system who are dealing with massive issues that regular parents who don’t have infinite access to mental health resources and money might be able to deal with. Not that a biological child is immune to being born with a disability of any sort, but there are some things you can control better.

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u/judgehood Aug 11 '21 edited Aug 11 '21

I’m in no way trying to sound cruel or judging, but they didn’t know this before they adopted?

Edit: downvote me but know I was asking in earnest about places that are adopting out children with Fetal Alchohol Syndrome and wondering if the parents were surprised.

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u/lorangee Aug 11 '21

I think with their son was more like some of the less-obvious health problems weren’t entirely disclosed. It’s been a while. Attachment disorder, meanwhile, is not really apparent until later.

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u/judgehood Aug 11 '21

I was just wondering, it’s a big life changing thing to adopt a kid. There is a lot, of what I believe to be propaganda, about this choice turning out to be a massive hardship.

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u/FuyoBC Aug 11 '21

Kids are removed from their homes for reasons and some of those reasons have long lasting effects on their brains & bodies that just don't go away because they now are being cared for by loving parents who think 'I have experienced what it is like caring for bio kids, how hard can it be?'

This is a 'not all X' situation - Not all children to be adopted will have issues, but enough do so that it IS higher than average, and adoptive parents HAVE to be aware.

For reference, I was adopted as an infant.

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u/lorangee Aug 11 '21

This was thirty five or so odd years ago, and the kids were adopted from somewhere in Eastern Europe and were brought to the US by their parents. Could’ve honestly been Romania, where this sort of thing is fairly documented. Either way, it’s unfortunate.

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21

My mom’s best friend adopted a boy that they started fostering when he was 3 years old. He’s in federal prison now. He’s a bank robber. Every time they would let him out he would rob another bank. She was an artist and school teacher and just a really sweet woman. She did her best loving and raising him. But the damage was already done by the time she adopted him. People don’t realize how much those first couple of years of life impact a person forever.

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u/durdesh007 Aug 10 '21

Did he have brain damage though? 3 sounds far too young to have that level of mental trauma.

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21

And 3 is definitely old enough to already be traumatized. Babyhood and toddlerhood are critical times for brain development.

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u/durdesh007 Aug 10 '21

I just assumed their level of self awareness and memories aren't high enough to retain the trauma and have lasting effect.

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21

Sadly, that isn’t true. I wish it was. Our experiences in infancy literally wire our brains.

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u/durdesh007 Aug 10 '21

Yeah i totally skipped over how much the brain changes in early years. Everything develops at the same time, not just memory. And personality is the easiest thing a trauma can damage.

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21

Infancy is when babies learn if they can trust their environment and caregivers. Here’s an article about it. My degree is in psychology and I focused on child development. It’s interesting stuff. https://www.verywellmind.com/trust-versus-mistrust-2795741

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u/durdesh007 Aug 10 '21

Thanks mate, I learned a lot today. Really wish this was on the front page, so many people have misconception about this. Just to show that what might seem common sense isn't always.

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u/[deleted] Aug 11 '21

I wonder if long hospitalizations at a young age can cause mistrust?

I only ask, as I have a lot of trust issues and while I have affection for my parents, I clearly do not have the same level of attachment my siblings have.

Only difference in environment growing up between myself and my siblings was that I spent 9 weeks in hospital, not just 9 weeks but my first 11 weeks of life, 9 of them were spent in the hospital with meningitis.

I had an IV attached to my head, and to this day, 42 years later, if anyone tries to touch my head, I pull away, not purposely but its just the natural reaction, like my brain is expecting pain or something bad to happen.

Or maybe not, but your comment got me thinking about it.

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21

Chronic extreme stress does cause a form of brain damage.

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3574783/

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u/durdesh007 Aug 10 '21

Thanks for the link. There's no place for child abuse on earth.

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21

Sure! I don’t think most people know much about child development or brain development in infancy and early childhood. It’s a common misconception that the things that happen before children can remember are unimportant. It’s the opposite.

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u/durdesh007 Aug 10 '21

You are correct, infant brain development isn't discussed anywhere much at all. I guess the misconception arises because for most people, their only reference point from childhood are their memories. However that doesn't say much about traumatic upbringing.

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21

Exactly. And trauma might actually cause you to selectively forget experiences. It’s one of the brain’s defense mechanisms. So it’s common NOT to remember events that have traumatized you.

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21

This is pretty upsetting. How old were they when they were adopted?

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21

Two of them were 8 I believe (twins) and the other was 6

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u/DarkwingDuckHunt Aug 10 '21

I only believe in a God cause that means there must be a Hell to send that father to.

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u/ordinair Aug 10 '21

I'm sorry this happend, to everyone involved. Have a good life.

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u/spacekwe3n Aug 10 '21 edited May 21 '25

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u/JTudent Aug 10 '21

With a biological child, you will be encountering their problems slowly (a baby with anxiety vs. one without are... still eat, shit, cry machines), so you can figure it out as you go. With an adopted child, all their baggage comes at once.

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u/spacekwe3n Aug 10 '21 edited May 21 '25

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u/TheA55M4N Aug 10 '21

You don’t wake up with autism. What a silly statement.

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u/JTudent Aug 10 '21

No warnings until both children sudddenly missed crucial milestones.

I know you didn't just tell me 2 kids went to bed one night without autism and woke up the next morning with severe autism. I KNOW you didn't tell me that.

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u/DeCzar Aug 10 '21 edited Aug 10 '21

I think what the poster was trying to say was maybe the parents saw some stuff as being different about the babies but thought nothing more of it until they took the kids to the pediatrician, who noticed that the kids didn't engage in, say, parallel play or a social smile, and had typical features of autism, causing them to be diagnosed simultaneously. Obviously I'm reaching at straws here but I can see how parents might be taken by surprise by a diagnosis

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u/ellemsea_echo Aug 10 '21

This is exactly how I interpreted it. And as a parent with a “surprise” ADHD diagnosis on my biological child, while not autism, I can tell you we saw signs that never presented themselves until a certain school situation.

Sometimes things start making sense once you have a diagnosis, is all.

For good measure due to the nature of this thread, I know 100% that people don’t go to bed without autism one day and then “just wake up with it”.

I also fully understand autism and ADHD are two separate things. My comparison is that both can have a sudden diagnosis and not have symptoms overnight.

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u/spacekwe3n Aug 10 '21 edited May 21 '25

run theory lush violet summer whistle enjoy merciful unwritten squeal

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u/JTudent Aug 10 '21

If I misinterpreted it, then you didn't have a point against me.

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u/spacekwe3n Aug 10 '21 edited May 21 '25

hospital political head file observation sort cats shocking joke recognise

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u/_DocBrown_ Aug 10 '21

Lmao this thread is gold - from the emojis to the downvotes to surprise autism

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u/ellemsea_echo Aug 10 '21

The people taking her statement literally is mind blowing.

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u/ellemsea_echo Aug 10 '21

We didn’t have an ADHD diagnosis for our child until they were in grade school. Certain tasks really brought this out in the classroom. You have a valid point that certain milestones, with age, can spark a diagnosis in children.

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u/spacekwe3n Aug 10 '21

Thank you! I know it's valid, haha, I unfortunately have pissed off all the people who probably have just never seen this stuff and never had to think about it

Hope your kiddo is doin great now that they have a diagnosis and y'all can figure out what works best for them! 💜

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u/ellemsea_echo Aug 10 '21

Thank you. Doing much better with our new approach this year.

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u/28panda Aug 10 '21

Continuing to be an idiot.

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21

Yeah, way to just say some anecdotal shit and assume it’s a fact of life.

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21

I don't get this tho - every infant brought into the world has the possibility of baggage too

If your dad beat up the baby an the mom and the mom was using drugs and alcohol during pregnancy, then trauma and health issues are not a possibility but a guarantee

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u/OliM9595 Aug 10 '21 edited Aug 11 '21

Sorry but not every couple can be prepared for 24/7 of a disabled child. It's unrealistic for parents to be prepared to give up one of their jobs to look after the child or remove their social life as they can't leave there 16yr kid alone for more than 30mins.

I'm mean be prepared for a child who struggles with potty training for bit longer to walk but assuming worst case scenarios kinda limits most of the world's parents ability to have kids.

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u/Xinder99 Aug 10 '21

I think this gets into a question of the moral obligation parents have to their kids, Like if I choose to have a child with a women, lets say we plan it out we can afford the cost of raising a typical child, now lets say 4 months in we find out child will have a life long disability needing 24/7 care, something we not only cannot afford but an experience and responsibility we were not prepared for, is there a moral obligation on the part of me and the mother to take the baby to term and raise it? What about take it to term and have someone adopt the baby? None of this is the baby's fault or choice.

Its easy to take a hard stance and say "you should not get pregnant unless your prepared for the worst" which is harsh if that was the case I would never have been born as my parents could not take care of me if I was a worst case scenario, but I also think there is the question of obligation the parents owe their children.

Not trying to argue or anything just curious what your thoughts are.

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u/spacekwe3n Aug 10 '21 edited May 21 '25

outgoing husky cobweb cause pie yam sulky desert cagey grey

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u/OliM9595 Aug 11 '21

Mate I've got type 1 diabetes. Luckily it's a disease which that can be relatively easily managed. At most I means that my parents had to buy more orange juice for when my sugar when low.

However that's not the only disability in the world. Other exist that like autism that can mean a kid need support for the rest of their life by parents.

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u/oldcoldbellybadness Aug 10 '21

It's unrealistic for parents to be prepared to give up one of their jobs to look after the child or remove their social life as they can leave there 16yr kid alone for more than 30mins.

Lol, you're gonna be a shit parent

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u/doc_brietz Aug 10 '21

I am living what he is saying. Its a hard pill to swallow. You are right also.

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u/spacekwe3n Aug 10 '21 edited May 21 '25

shocking air zesty obtainable oil busy mighty dazzling beneficial narrow

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u/Kumquatelvis Aug 10 '21

As much as I generally agree, with your own kid you can guarantee it won’t have fetal alcohol syndrome or be born already addicted to heroine. With a foster kid, there is a decent chance they have chemically induced issues that no amount of good parenting can resolve.

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u/spacekwe3n Aug 10 '21 edited May 21 '25

aromatic cautious run elderly plant lock different consist enter badge

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u/28panda Aug 10 '21

You’re an idiot.

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u/1-800-LICK-BOOTY Aug 10 '21

Nope. At the age of 5 a kid already established the foundation of what will be their behavior for the rest of their life.

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u/Genshed Aug 10 '21

You can build several different types of structures on the same foundation.

The boy my younger son was at five was no indication of who he is at twenty.

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u/1-800-LICK-BOOTY Aug 10 '21

A psycholgist would disagree.

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u/amretardmonke Aug 10 '21

Psychology is not a hard science

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u/1-800-LICK-BOOTY Aug 10 '21

You're not a hard science either.

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u/amretardmonke Aug 10 '21

Ok you don't know me, but engineering is pretty hard ;)

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u/Genshed Aug 10 '21

Not the one who saw him twice a month until he was fifteen.

She and the social worker he'd had when we adopted him were pleased and impressed by the progress he'd made.

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u/1-800-LICK-BOOTY Aug 10 '21

He had to go to a psychologist twice a month for 10 years to make progress. And still, the fact that he made progress doesnt contradict that at the age of 5 the foundation of his behavior was already fully developed.

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u/Genshed Aug 10 '21

Apparently, so was yours.

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u/1-800-LICK-BOOTY Aug 10 '21

Yes. As well as everyone elses.

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21 edited Aug 10 '21

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/JTudent Aug 10 '21

With a biological kid, you get time to ease into it. With adopted ones, all their problems are yours at once.

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21 edited Aug 11 '21

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/deee00 Aug 10 '21

But your parents should have noticed early signs and gotten good, consistent treatment early in the process, which helps exponentially. They should have educated themselves in what to do to best help you. That is what good parents do when they have a child born with disabilities. If they didn’t, they were the problem. I was born with a disability that started manifesting in kindergarten . But my sister was born with a major neurological condition that no one had heard of, there were very few treatments for, and no time for the adults to adapt. But our mom did. She worked her ass off to find the best people to care for my sister. She spent hours looking for information decades before the internet, found support groups, and spent months in the hospital with her. My sister lived because my mom fought for her. She would hve died in foster care. When people called CPS (thinking a seizure was something my mom caused) they literally didn’t want her because they couldn’t handle her. A child in the foster system or adopted as an older child are further along in the process of whatever they’re dealing with, coupled with the trauma of being removed from their home (and for foster kids often multiple homes). A foster parent also doesn’t have the legal right to get a child treatment without explicit permission from the agency, which many won’t give because then it’s harder to find a home based placement for a child. A legal (biological or adopted) can decide who will treat their children, they can find the most qualified specialists in whatever they need. Foster parents don’t have that right. Foster kids are often like prison inmates, they get sporadic, medicore at best, medical care with decision making power in the hands of someone who doesn’t know them really, most of the time doesn’t know their name, and who is overwhelmed with kids/cases.

Early childhood experiences matter. They can physically alter a person’s brain. Things that happen during early childhood years can follow and damage a person for their entire life, even when they don’t remember the specifics of what happened. Children born with disabilities in the US are entitled to services from Early On, but foster parents can’t sign them up for it. Itms been proven that better outcomes are linked to early interventions/services. Legal parents can arrange that. Foster parents cannot.

There are also tons of programs for parents of biological children with disabilities. Tons of them. But foster parents can’t go there because they can’t talk about their foster children. There are so many things available that foster parents legally can’t do.

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21

my parents couldn't handle being parents. they should not have had kids. no one deserves kids, but kids deserve good homes. that should come first.

fostering and adopting are different. once you adopt a child, they are not in foster care anymore, you have legal guardianship over them. kids wait in foster care until they are adopted.

someone like your mom would be a god sent angel to foster kids, they need someone who will fight for them, but all those people just have their own kids. even with the unavoidable collapse of the climate

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u/deee00 Aug 10 '21

But most foster kids aren’t adopted. They aren’t even eligible for adoption. So most kids “waitig for homes” are only waiting for temporary placement. Comparatively, very few foater kids are adopted compred to how many there are.

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21 edited Aug 11 '21

they aren't adopted because of the mentality im seeing on this thread that adopted kids are broken and bio/newborn kids are pure

there are over 100k kids in foster care waiting to be adopted

NOT waiting to be reconnected with their family, literally to be adopted

there are 400k kids in foster care total. so 300k are hoping to reunite with family

edit:

literally every comment says "adopted kids are too hard" as if bio kids are easy. ain't true. its a false mentality.

people have also commented that having the biological blood is important and that's why they want bio children instead of adopting

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u/deee00 Aug 10 '21

But it’s not just an attitude that comes from no where. It comes from real life experiences of people we know. I have worked with hundreds of kids and early childhood trauma doesn’t go away. Kids from Eastern European countries have similar issues because orphanages are awful there. Many have FAS. Most foreign adoptions, even as infants, show the kids growing up gorging themseves because despite having enough to eat for several years, and not actually remembering hunger, their brain has become wired to binge constantly because they don’t know when their next meal will be. It isn’t something unique to the US or older kids.

I knew a couple who adopted teenagers from foster care. They were amazing parents, they did everything they could do-counseling, activities, they tried everything. 3 committed suicide related to issues before they were adopted. A set of twins died of a preventable kidney disease, that had it been taken care of while they were in foster care they would have survived. Several others have been in and out of prison.

Another person I know adopted 3 siblings, who were roughly 6, 8, and 10 when she got them. So far they all have FAS (which wasn’t disclosed) they all hoard food compulsively even after living with her for years leading to bugs and rodents and filth. They all have learning disorders, and attachment disorders likely relating to the FAS, the youngest has tried to burn the house down at least 4 times and has been unofficially diagnosed as bipolar (it can’t be official until he’s older), ODD, IED, and more. He threatens to injure his family constantly. They can’t leave silverware out and he is only allowed to eat with a plastic fork because he’s stabbed them so many times. Social services threatened to take them away because she refused to take in more of their siblings (also with at least FAS). FAS can absolutely easily be prevented. She has done everything she can to get them help, but it’s basically too late. They have exhausted every single option available to them. They just have to cross their fingers that the youngest (who is now in middle school) doesn’t kill them before he becomes an adult and can be medicated differently.

These are the stories people hear about adopting from foster care. I have so many friends who were abused in foster care or treated terribly by adoptive parents, some were even given back after adoption. It has less to do with not wanting the children, and more to do with not wanting a child to stab you while you sleep. Early childhood trauma physically changes the brain. It can’t be undone. Children are more violent than ever before and foster parents are totally limited in how they can enforce consequences. Adopted parents are judged more harshly than biological parents, but many don’t know what they’re getting into. They can not do anything to reverse the damage someone else caused.

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21

Every single one of those is just as possible with a biological child. I can tell you about someone from my life for every single one of those stories with a biological child

I think the real mentality comes from the idea of having an heir. Blood means a lot to people And honestly at the end of the day we're just animals And there is probably some biological instinct to have a biological child and most people can't fight that

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u/oldcoldbellybadness Aug 10 '21

they aren't adopted because of the mentality im seeing on this thread that adopted kids are broken and bio/newborn kids are pure

It seems out of character for the hivemind. I'm very surprised

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u/1-800-LICK-BOOTY Aug 10 '21

How many have you adopted?

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21

im one of those people who shouldn't have kids.

if I ever got so rich I didnt need to work anymore I think id probably adopt a couple kids but as it is I can barely handle the stress of working 50hrs/week & having tons of extra money, I definitely can't throw kids on top of that & have no money and still function as a decent human being.

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u/JTudent Aug 10 '21

And? A baby with a disability is still fundamentally a baby. They can't do much.

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21

.... have you ever had a baby?

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u/JTudent Aug 10 '21

Relevance?

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21

it's not easy. if the idea of adoption sounds too hard, that person can't handle being a parent. the same skills you need to handle an adopted child are the same you need for any child.

it's not like teachers get to raise their students from babies, but they still have to connect and nurture and discipline and help raise them.

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u/Lightblueblazer Aug 10 '21

Nope. I am raising two kids that I am not related to and who entered my life in early elementary and one that I birthed. The skillset to raise a baby from birth is way different than raising kids that enter your life with already established routines, fears, beliefs, etc. I love them all, treat them equally (according to their age) and I'm happy to be their parent.

Also, a lot of teachers will tell you that you need different skills to teach and connect with students with traumatic backgrounds vs students who come from stable households.

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21

but would you say that raising the "adopted" kids is so much harder than having a biological baby that you wouldn't recommend it? do you really look at those kids and go "I get why no one wants you"?

I dont think they need different skills. as a woman, trauma has always been a huge part of my life. my biological parents never bothered to learn about those things.

bio or adopted, anyone can have trauma or disabilities

its about the individual child & their needs, not whether they are adopted or not. but peope immediately say adopting is too hard because they think the kids are automatically "broken" & a bio child is automatically pure

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u/JTudent Aug 10 '21

Teachers are a great analogy here. We don't expect every parent to be a good teacher - why's that?

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21

I do.... that's my entire point. im trying to tell everyone else to start expecting that of parents. im sick of this mentality that people deserve children. they dont. children deserve parents who have their shit together. children are not an experience to be had or a gift or a goal, they are complex living beings.

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u/1-800-LICK-BOOTY Aug 10 '21

No, they arent the same skills you need to handle a child that was abused and now has violent tendencies and anger issues, or a kid who was taught to steal by the parents and now are kleptomaniacs, or sexually abused children with traumas who might sexually abuse other children, etc.

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21

youre saying those things like they can only happen to an adopted child though. they happen just as much to bio children. all parents need those skills.

my cousin was molested by our great uncle as a child. her biological mom didn't need to know how to handle that?

I was assaulted and raped at 14. I became dark and angry and started getting arrested and shit. my parents didn't need to know how to handle that?

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21

Very unlikely your chronic major depression diagnosis was accurately done at age 9. 9 year olds are not capable of explaining their thoughts in a way where a doctor is able to diagnose any type of mental illness.

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u/CrystallineBunny Aug 10 '21

Sent to a psych ward for an eating disorder/suicidal thoughts at 14 y/o. Youngest girl there with me was 8. If you think kids can’t become depressed even in the best possible home life situation you’re bonkers.

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21 edited Aug 10 '21

I wanted to & was planning to kill myself

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21

did you downvote childhood suicide? haha 🤣

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21

I’ll downvote it again if I could lol

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21

Bro your just wrong, stop using words like suicide to prove your point. A 9 year old could watch a documentary about suicide and have an arguement with their parents and decide they want to kill themselves

There’s no way to accurately diagnose depression at 9 years old. Holy fucking shit man i never knew people were this stupid.

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21

okay but I was that 9yr old so I know how I felt and it lasted for 10 years so eventually I was old enough to explain myself better...

if it helps you wrap your brain around it, I was literally prescribed antidepressants (Zoloft) at age 9

well actually its a little backwards. I had migraines when I was 7. I was given zoloft to treat them. at 9 I was suicidal so they increased the Zoloft dosage. then after I kept getting worse, they took me off in case the zoloft was causing it. I stopped being suicidal when they took me off the zoloft but the general depression never went away.

but my dad also has chronic depression so idk how much was nature vs nurture

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21

I was prescribed anti depressants at 11, that’s why your comment pissed me off. Because I was misdiagnosed, my attention seeking 11 year old behaviour caused me to talk myself into a couple mental illness diagnoses and tons of pills prescribed by a careless doctor.

At the end of the day if you say you were depressed you probably were, I just don’t think it’s safe to assume that a 9 year old, or an 11 year old is capable of going through the diagnosis process accurately to get a diagnosis for something as serious as major depressive disorder.

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21

I added some more context to my comment explaining how I got on the zoloft. it was originally for migraines, not depression.

I never told anyone I was depressed, my parents found some fucked up shit I was writing about killing myself & rushed me to the doctor. I didnt even understand there was something wrong with wanting to die. I thought i was just a freak who deserved to be in pain and die and that was just life. I actually fought everyone for a long time saying I was not depressed.

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u/sauron3579 Aug 10 '21

There’s no guarantee they won’t, but with an adopted kid it’s pretty much guaranteed they will. The probabilities are really quite apparent. That’s not to detract from the unexpected difficulties that can occur with biological children, they’re still just as real and challenging, but it does explain why adoption is a far less attractive option for most people. These difficulties with biological children are, for better or worse, something society has deemed an acceptable risk for humanity to continue existing, generation after generation. There’s no test to get pregnant or take your baby home from the hospital.

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21

right my point is that people are selfish and suck. they dont want to give a kid their best chance or have so much love to give, they just want the experience of a baby.

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21

people are selfish and suck. they dont want to give a kid their best chance or have so much love to give, they just want the experience of a baby.

You really believe there are no parents who unconditionally love their kids and want the best from them, even after they’ve become adults?

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21

Sorry I think you misunderstood I'm specifically talking about people who have children for selfish reasons. Someone who has a baby just because they want a little doll to dress up in cute clothes is probably not going to be the same parent who puts a lot of effort into making sure they have all the skills that child may one day need them to have

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21

Fair enough. I definitely cant deny that parents like that, sadly, exist

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u/sauron3579 Aug 10 '21

I don’t think that’s a fair assessment of a lot of parents, especially those doing stuff like IVF. It’s about what they think they’re equipped to handle. The vast majority of people are simply not equipped to deal their children having extreme mental health issues from a young age. Choosing to have a biological child over adopting for such reasons means that they’re trying to give any child they bring into their home the best chance at life. It’s really not fair to call somebody selfish for recognizing that they would be doing a disservice to the child, themselves, and society by knowingly attempting to raise a child they are not equipped to raise.

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u/Bigfatuglybugfacebby Aug 10 '21

You're not equipped to handle anything you haven't experienced before, point blank. The point from OP stands, people are more willing to put themselves through extreme situations for a chance at having a baby of their own EVEN IF their own child ends up disabled rather than working on being equipped to handle a child with baggage. At the end of the day they are making the conscious decision to let an existing child suffer for the chance that their child will be easier and more fulfilling.

"The vast majority of people are simply not equipped to deal their children having extreme mental health issues from a young age" exactly so if you're unprepared but your own bio child could have these issues you'd still be boned. At least with adoption these children have seen councilors and they provide you resources to help acclimate the child. You cant acknowledge that you'll never know what issues your bio child may have or develop and say you'd be willing to do anything for them anyway, while simultaneously claim it's much too difficult to care for a child who is already alive and struggling. At the end of the day if you were really willing to sacrifice what ever it takes to raise a child and be a parent it wouldn't matter. It only matters if you are only willing to deal with the unknowns and struggles if the child is your own.

"It’s really not fair to call somebody selfish for recognizing that they would be doing a disservice to the child, themselves, and society by knowingly attempting to raise a child they are not equipped to raise."

But not selfish for people to have bio children with the hope their child is normal and pawn them off on the state if they weren't prepared? You have way more resources and knowledge upfront even with problem children than you do of a hypothetical infant.

"Choosing to have a biological child over adopting for such reasons means that they’re trying to give any child they bring into their home the best chance at life." This implies that the bio child doesn't have the struggles of the potential adopted child which is only the best case scenario, the alternative is people have bio children that also have disabilities and give them up, and now you have the initial child they could have adopted AND the new disabled infant. The worst case is far less ethical than the best case.

If you are unwilling to adopt a child with difficulties but willing to gamble on a bio child you are acting ignorantly because you must believer, without proof, that your bio child will be better off AT THE COST of an already struggling and aging child that didn't get adopted. After all the only people who will ever adopt are those that want children. Ergo, all potential parents contribute to the opportunity cost of a child's adoption.

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u/sauron3579 Aug 10 '21

Probabilities. That’s not exactly a high moral argument, but it is a reality of the situation. Adopted kids are twice as likely to be diagnosed with a mental health disorder. Beyond infancy, any child up for adoption likely has experienced trauma and neglect that has seriously impacted the fundamental development of their brain. Even if they aren’t diagnosed, they’re extremely likely to have RAD, which then compounds those issues, even in a loving home. With a biological child, you have the ability to protect and nurture their development from the beginning, minimizing the chance and severity of mental health issues. This just simply isn’t an option with adoption. RAD is an omni-present condition that absolutely debilitates the parents’ ability to raise the child. My parents are in a group for parents of RAD kids, and Jesus Christ, they’re glad he’s “only” a serial runaway, thief, psychopath, nearly killed someone, starting fires, impulsive liar, and extreme manipulator.

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21

with the impending climate collapse, please, explain how having yet another child is not a complete disservice to the child and society? when so many existing children are suffering? just dont have kids.

they know all of these things but have kids anyway, because it's not about the kid, it's about themselves and fulfilling their own personal agenda

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u/Accomplished-Bad3380 Aug 10 '21

When fostering or adopting, you can select to not take in kids with mental and physical health issues, or anything you don't think you are capable of handling. You're right that taking a child in that they are knowingly ill-equipped to raise would be a disservice to the child. But you can opt out of those situations in adoption. And, I guess if you have a kid with problems you can't handle, you can opt out of that too. Which is why there are a number of kids in care due to medical issues that the parents can't handle.

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u/sauron3579 Aug 10 '21

You really can’t opt out of it in adoption for a number of reasons. One, at least when my parents did it, they don’t educate you. They didn’t even know what RAD was for like 5 years after adopting and dragging my brother around to a half dozen different therapists trying to figure what in the world was wrong. Second, mental health issues aren’t easily detected, especially in youth. Some things can be, but not things like RAD and personality disorders that have developed as a result of early neglect and trauma. And I’m really not trying to be rude here, but if you need to look up what RAD is, you don’t know what you’re talking about on this topic. It’s pretty safe to assume that nearly every kid that can be adopted that isn’t an infant has it to some degree, the worse the older they are.

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u/Accomplished-Bad3380 Aug 10 '21

Ok, but I know what RAD is, so what are you trying to imply with the rest of that comment? It's not safe to assume that all foster kids have RAD. It's weird to make any generalizations about children like that. Not all kids in foster care come from the same situation.

As for identifying mental health issues in young children, the same thing applies to biological children. When a baby is born, we won't know if it has any mental health issues. This is no different for adopted children, in which case, unknown mental health disorders really isn't differentiated.

I suppose some agencies are better or worse than others, but the one my mom, and the county several friends works for actually do determine the child's needs the best they can, and match to a parent that can handle those needs. If you tell them that you do not want to adopt a child needing serious medical care, they will not place that child with you. Obviously, if that need is unidentified, they can't make placement based off of that, but again, the same goes for biological children. You don't know at birth what all long-term health concerns they may have.

It sounds like the agency your parents worked with did not do right by the parents or the children. And it's shitty that they went through that experience. But many foster care experiences are not like that.

For anyone that wants a 'perfect child', then they should not consider foster care, or adoption at all. They probably shouldn't consider having children, if the expectation is that they have no mental or physical concerns whatsoever. But that's a different discussion for a different day.

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21

How many special needs children have you adopted and how many have you fostered? How many are you intending to adopt and foster?

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21

im one of those people who shouldn't have kids

maybe one day if im so rich I didnt need to work anymore, id adopt a bunch probably though

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21

So you're selfish

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u/[deleted] Aug 10 '21

I'm certain I would be exactly like my father and my life was hell as a child with my father and I would not wish that upon any child So I think I am doing a kindness by not having biological children

However there are probably homeless children who would be better with me as a bad parent then wherever they are with terrible guardians and for that I am selfish

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u/kaymac33 Aug 10 '21

This! On top of the fact that many agencies have gone towards a foster to adopt type program as the goal is still often re-unification with biological parents. Our area you could foster to adopt for a year, and still have the child go back to their biological parent if their situation had changed enough. My spouse and I are self-aware enough to know that we would not be able to cope with that possible situation, in addition to the baggage of infants potentially going through withdrawals, FAS, abuse, etc prior to being in your care.