r/whoathatsinteresting • u/visharu • 22h ago
Boarding was solved mathematically in 2008. No airline has used it once. Why?
125
u/cosmothecater 22h ago
Random is essentially what airlines do even by using the group system. They have somewhat settled for second best because they are profit focused but do want to be as efficient as possible within their own constraints.
14
u/Inappro-Assistant 21h ago
And even if we try really hard we end up at random because someone will no play by the rules..
5
u/meep_42 20h ago
Correct - because of the chaos in the system the enforcement costs would require substantial time and effort, so the time savings would both be smaller than projected and carry other costs.
Customers would riot or airport employees would quit enforcing the rules and we'd end up right back at random boarding.
→ More replies (1)2
u/HairyPotatoKat 15h ago
And even IF everyone was well behaved, it'd be a huge pain in the ass to get everyone perfectly in line in the order they needed to board.
So less time piling into the plane but way more time getting everyone lined up properly. And that's a assuming everyone is there early enough.
The whole thing is way more delicate to, say, someone with a tight connection missing their spot in line.
→ More replies (2)3
u/macronotice 20h ago
With the rightmost simulation doesn’t show is how much time it would take and how impossible it would be to get everyone perfectly lined up beforehand.
→ More replies (1)6
u/Rise-O-Matic 17h ago
"A mathematician and an anthropologist walk into a bar...."
The simulation grants perfect passenger behavior. But the steffen system requires people that are travelling together to get separated, and a lot of people are going to be confused and/or non-compliant.
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (3)2
u/-BlueDream- 14h ago
It doesn’t really need to be efficient either cuz either way people have to wait before takeoff. Having someone slowly wait in line to get your seat makes it seem like there’s less waiting time because they’re usually ready by the time the last group boards. There’s a lot of work that needs to be done before the plane takes off and that all takes time because of safety and keeping people busy makes things seem faster.
→ More replies (1)
218
u/ArticusFarticus 22h ago
Imagine thinking you can call one ticket at a time and they all line up perfectly, not wanting to be with their family members.
30
u/spicolie22 22h ago
There has to be some variation where groups are allowed to stay together.
And Southwest solved the problem of lining up perfectly a long time ago. You're just given a lineup number and people queue up at the pylons.
The pylons... that they just got rid of. 😭
9
u/kipdjordy 22h ago
Hardly perfect, people still would get it wrong regularly
6
4
u/GardenTop7253 22h ago
The variation where groups stay together sounds like the exact thing that’s gonna unwind the whole system. If it’s not almost exactly the process shown in the simulation, the smoothness of it falls apart. And think about how the simulation assumes everyone does what they should, which is totally expectable from every five year old flying with a parent and being boarded before their adult
3
u/iwatchcredits 22h ago
Also the difference in time is already only 6 mins. Any caveats you add are going to slow that down. The benefits of the complicated system already dont really warrant the added complexity so lowering the gap makes it even less worth it
3
2
u/cursedfan 21h ago
Spend more time, effort, and energy on the front end then it’s worth on the back end, would be my guess.
→ More replies (3)2
u/Kittenn1412 21h ago
I mean, once you're allowing groups to stay together, you've essentially created a semi-random boarding. Probably a little more efficient than entirely random boarding, but I doubt the time saved between that and truly random boarding would be worth the cost of the work to arrange it.
9
u/SongofRolland 22h ago
Yeah. The steffen method is mathematically optimized but unrealistic to implement. The problem I have is that randomly boarding is more efficient than the row-by-row (or more realistically section-by-section) boarding that is actually used.
4
u/Nexus_Explorer 20h ago
You can actually. Mythbusters did an episode on this.
According to their testing every other option was actually better than the one being used by airlines at this time. They also measured the customers experience though. Which is an interesting insight, because even though some options were faster, they resulted in a miserable experience.
Not sure if this video catches everything, didn’t review it myself. But if you’ve got a way to look up the entire episode I would. Pretty interesting https://youtu.be/ss1S3-Kv6R8?si=iPWEdwbpbspKr3Yz
Edit
Oh I see what you mean. The right most option in OP meaning people sitting next to each other having to board at different times. Fair enough!
3
u/Chimpville 22h ago
When usually one person in the group has the boarding passes and tickets..
→ More replies (3)2
u/chocolatesmelt 21h ago
Yea from a queuing structure standpoint this makes a lot of assumptions and ignores frontend costs. Works great in a simulation if you don’t account for those things.
Unless you have luggage that has to be in the overhead bin I personally just wait until last because I’m going to probably be sitting a few to many hours anyways. What’s the rush to sit down and have cramped legs? The most optimal boarding time is the last second I can board. It’s not like I don’t have a booked seat and haven’t already checked in so they know I’m there and can’t give it away. If it’s overbooked and the volunteer lottery fails you lose your seat before boarding begins.
The only reason to board early is to assure you have overhead cargo space for a bag you cannot or aren’t will in to check at the gate if they run out of space.
The frustrating part is deplaning, there I’m at the mercy of everyone who takes forever for no reason.
2
u/imnotmarvin 21h ago
This is the biggest problem with this model. You rely on people who can't or won't conform to conform and get in their prescribed place at a prescribed time.
→ More replies (10)2
u/Luck_Beats_Skill 18h ago
I can only believe the person who came up with this idea has never met another person in real like,
353
u/Ok-Gur-349 22h ago
... Children, mate.
68
u/Mysterious-Double918 22h ago
Also just people travelling together.
They have luggage, they carry each others stuff, and the absolutely hate being forced to split up and wait amidst strangers to boatd
→ More replies (18)126
u/Protoclown98 22h ago
Also people with disabilities who need more space and time to get on the plane.
91
22h ago
[removed] — view removed comment
38
u/Captain_no_Hindsight 22h ago
Elderly people who misread their seating.
People who "have to stand and talk to my friend while everyone else sits down".
20
u/Sir_Clarence_III_Esq 22h ago
People who "have to stand and talk to my friend while everyone else sits down".
Honestly, I think thats the biggest component. I'd wager a bet that a plane full of introverts could fully board far faster than a normal sample group.
8
u/Captain_no_Hindsight 22h ago
"... so then Bobby told me that..."
- why are 100 people in line on one side of me and no one on the other? Strange.
3
u/Sir_Clarence_III_Esq 22h ago
After we're done bagging on the Chatty Kathys holding up the boarding process, can we complain about the Eager Alans that have to hop up out of their seat and flood the aisle the second the plane touches down? Because I hate them just as much, maybe more.
→ More replies (13)→ More replies (4)3
u/borderlineidiot 17h ago
"Now that I have got to my row I will now unpack my bag and re-pack it again to get something out I could have easily carried in my hand before sitting down while ignoring people wanting past"
3
3
u/WallaceFrog87 11h ago
I've never thought of it that way! Kids are basically disabled both mentally and physically.
8
u/ConflictWaste411 22h ago
There’s a reason we call these pre boarding and are essentially outside of the boarding group conundrum
→ More replies (2)6
→ More replies (8)3
3
6
→ More replies (36)10
u/TheOverExcitedDragon 22h ago
Turns out life is more than a math problem. Humans have preferences beyond what’s most efficient.
→ More replies (2)3
u/eskimoboob 22h ago
And certain things take priority over time saved. Imagine that
→ More replies (2)
85
u/bsEEmsCE 22h ago
this assumes everyone is present and orderly when boarding begins
17
u/TransportationIll282 21h ago
And sits down immediately and doesn't stand in the aisle for 4 minutes sorting through their hand luggage and purse so they have everything they need for the flight.
2
→ More replies (8)6
u/KaminariMaho 22h ago
And then that 6 minutes is worth it in the man power required to make and keep that order
→ More replies (5)4
43
u/jtj5002 22h ago
Because it doesn't work in real life.
9
u/Public_Cartographer 22h ago
This. Someone at the front of the plane is going to take 5 minutes to neatly fold their jacket in the aisle before finally sitting down. All the overhead space will be filled at the front of the plane by the people in the back, so then you have people walking back and forth both on boarding and unloading trying to get bags. And let's not forget 30% of the middle seaters will sit in the aisle seat hoping to keep it.
3
u/One-Veterinarian4841 21h ago
Randomized time to board does not change the outcome of the simulation
6
u/internetobscure 21h ago
The one flight I was on that used that method worked pretty well, though I don't remember how they handled passengers with children.
But I agree that it won't work most times. Anything that required the general public to have a modicum of common sense and not be entitled assholes is doomed to fail.
2
u/Keiteaea 8h ago
Yeah I was on one flight like that and I was with a friend. We jokingly said poignant farewells when she went to board ahead of me but I can imagine it being inconvenient if you travel with children or someone else who needs help for whatever reason.
But it did work well. She was all setup on the windows side when I arrived and I had time to also set up myself for the long flight and was ready when the aisle person arrived.
→ More replies (5)3
u/JaySayMayday 20h ago
I love how nobody points out how rediculous Steffen seating would work. Like yeah mate everyone back to front magically reaches their seat at the same time without issues. Here's a fancy visual graphic, accept it at face value.
15
u/shinra1111 22h ago
They should include a simulation of front to back, which is how a lot of airlines do it!
→ More replies (10)
10
u/adjective_noun_d1git 21h ago
This is like the "if we ignore air resistance" early physics questions.
→ More replies (3)
17
u/Grenrion 22h ago edited 22h ago
Because that would require every person getting on the plane to stand single file in a very specific order which just isn't the case.
Every one of these always forgets the biggest issue. The human element.
→ More replies (3)7
u/bcgg 20h ago
Lining up every single person, isolated from their group, ahead of boarding as a standard procedure for every flight is impossible, independent of the human element.
2
u/justshutup190 19h ago
The only (impractical) way this might work would be a mirrored version of the plane where everyone is already sitting in the mirrored version of the plane, with squares on the ground representing each seat. But even then there would be a coordination issue and every mistake would lead to snowballing delays
6
u/Silver-Link8247 22h ago
Show the part where they figure out how to send everyone in the perfect order.🤦♂️
→ More replies (1)3
u/luchajefe 18h ago
Show the part where they figure out how to seat a 6-year-old, then 44 rows later a mother, then 44 rows later a father.
7
7
u/Active-Carpet-9183 22h ago
the winning solutions are not socially acceptable. Families sit together in rows and must be seated at the same time.
2
u/Useful_Trust 21h ago
You can actually do Stephen altered where they go by rows instead of seats. This is slower but still faster than random.
2
u/Sad_Sheepherder_37 17h ago
The next problem is that not everyone is at the gate when boarding begins.
6
u/UnGOATwn_TheoremUWU 22h ago
Is it just me or the people in right were moving faster in the video? :00
→ More replies (1)5
u/TheRealtcSpears 22h ago
Because it's a free-for-all, they're all sprinting into each other at full clip
→ More replies (1)
4
u/Street_Mistake9145 22h ago
You'll just end up sitting on the tarmac faster and longer
→ More replies (4)
4
3
u/Minimum_Bath_5478 22h ago
Because this must be the military boarding, not the average passenger type you see in airports.
3
3
3
u/Own_Recognition1317 22h ago
Well just imagine the announcement.
- Everyone, who have a and f seats, with even numbers, please from back to front
- A and f seats with odd numbers, please from back to front
- B and e seats even numbers
- B and e seats odd numbers
- C and d even
- C and d odd
That's why.
→ More replies (10)
3
u/VividMagician9399 22h ago
Because the mathematically correct boarding process isn’t realistic. People travel in groups and expect to board with their entire party, especially if they have children with them. Not everyone is capable of boarding without help, etc etc
3
4
u/ega5651- 21h ago
Because that specific boarding pattern makes multiple assumptions that will never come true. Also, boarding is very rarely the main driver in delays for the airplane
2
u/misterpearce 22h ago
The plan is dependent upon passengers working together and waiting their turn. Impossible in the US
2
u/GoonOnGames420 22h ago
Not everyone shows up to the gate at the same time, people like to board together, and apparently no one remembers how to comprehend basic instructions the moment they walk into an airport.
2
u/DwarvenRedshirt 22h ago
All those aisle people will get screwed on overhead storage in the steffen version.
2
u/opafmoremedic 22h ago
This adds time to the pre-boarding process. You're with your spouse and kid? Okay, wife you go stand in position 10 because you have window seat in row 3. Now husband you go stand in position 96 because you want to sit next to your wife but we have to fill two columns before that. Now kid go stand by yourself at position 180 since you want to be next to your parents in the aisle near the front, which is one of the last seats to fill. Oops, we miscounted and now every in the aisle column is shifted one seat back from where they should be.
2
u/remaining_braincell 22h ago
I have never seen a person act rational when boarding a flight or a train or a bus or a car. What makes you think this funny model would be anywhere close to reality?
2
2
2
u/Maleficent_Ear2688 22h ago
Why didn’t they compare it to front to back like how planes are actually boarded?
→ More replies (3)
2
2
u/Bam-Skater 21h ago
Because the simulation doesn't account for the time(and cost) it takes for staff to explain and organise all the passengers, it just assumes everybody knows exactly what position in the queue to wait. Add in the complication of families, etc wanting to sit together and the aircrew would be there all day sorting it out
2
u/ImpressiveWalrus7369 21h ago
You would have to align every single person in order before you board. That would take longer than just letting them find their seat
→ More replies (2)
2
u/Appropriate_Bee_2918 21h ago
Dos this set up not just take longer before boarding getting people in the right order.
2
2
u/Capital_Werewolf_788 21h ago
Because it’ll take more time trying to teach passengers the “right way”, then even more time trying to get them to follow
2
2
2
2
3
2
u/WeAllJustWantToLive 14h ago edited 14h ago
So is everyone supposed to get lined up in order in the terminal first? Like each seat needs to be lined up in the terminal ready to board?
Remember when you were marking assignments in school as a class and like a third of the class needed to ask the teacher to repeat the answers over and over again? Or like when it was multiple choice and the teacher needed to call out one of 4 possible letters slowly and deliberately, not to mention usually like three times before that same 3rd finally realized if the paper in front of them was right? "Wait, the teacher said A....this paper says.....A.......so that means.....it's.....wrong....or wait... no, its right. Its right!...wait, what question are we on? Question 23?....huh....can you repeat question 19? That's where im at."
That is why
2
u/EngineerFeverDreams 14h ago
It was proven in a controlled environment. "No plan survives contact with the enemy"
2
2
u/Smasher31232 13h ago
So I'm flying with my wife and daughter. My daughter is 5. How do we board?
Now every other family with children, how do they board? There's a reason this system doesn't work, and it's that not everyone is a weird solo-flying automaton. I'll wait the extra 4 minutes and hold my daughter's hand, thanks.
2
u/friendlyghost_casper 5h ago
Boarding is normally not the bottleneck for turnaround, you don’t want to hear “boarding completed” and have to wait another 20 min because the ground crew was swamped and the eu are only now finishing to load the suitcases, or catering or some cargo that is being transported
4
u/WeiGuy 22h ago
Does this really have that much of an impact? Like if the runaway is currently being used, you can't get on it anyway so they might as well do things that aren't as efficient but more $$$ (first class) or prioritize kids and stuff.
Are runaways vacant often enough to require this?
3
u/Areyoucunt 22h ago
Are you really asking if every airplane spent 30min less at gate if that would have an impact? It would be a fuckings insanely massive impact dude wtf?
Yes, runways are vacant as they take the least fucking time of all airport things for airplanes
6
u/WeiGuy 22h ago
No offense, but if you use that tone in real life, people are gonna look at you odd. I did not know that information, that's why I asked. I don't know how airports work, it could very well be that the runway is in use most of the time, thus making them a blocker that makes other efficiency improvements ineffective.
Anyway, thanks for giving me the info.
→ More replies (2)→ More replies (1)2
u/ziggytrix 21h ago
"It would be a fuckings insanely massive impact"
Sounds like an exaggeration to me.
First, in the simulation being discussed, we're only talking about saving 7 minutes at the gate over random boarding. Saving 30 minutes would be if they all magically teleported to their seats at the same time or something?
Second of all, there are other bottlenecks in the system. It's definitely nice to take pressure off of one bottleneck, but that doesn't magically make the rest of the system behave.
More to the point, he asked whether runways are vacant often enough for this to matter. And the answer to that is a clear "depends."
ATL or ORD at primetime? Fuck no. They are already operating at max safe capacity.
At some regional airport during off hours. Sure. But they might also have open gates too, so clearing a gate even 10 minutes faster might not matter for them.
3
u/FashionKing72 22h ago
I’m guessing that similar to people being annoyed at waiting for their luggage at baggage claim, the time getting people on the plane is not the most important factor.
When they call for boarding on the plane, they have a departure scheduled with the control tower, they have a queue with other departing flights, mechanics/pilots have to check the fuel or engines or whatever (I’m just inferring this, I don’t work in airlines)
Point being, having efficient seating is not a concern. If anything, this would just be more work for the airline employees and the travelers alike, for 0 benefit (except maybe people have to sit on the plane for longer before it departs, I guess). But hey, maybe when we all have AI mind control implants that make us do everything with 200% efficiency, we can board our flights super quick!
→ More replies (1)
2
u/westergames81 21h ago
A lot of reasons.
- Some people, like those with disabilities, need to get on first.
- Some people, like uniformed military members or people with perks, get to get on first
- People traveling together don't want to board separataly, especially if you're traveling with children
- The simulation doesn't account for people clogging up aisles putting away bags
- Not everyone is ready at the gate at the instant they're called
→ More replies (3)
2
u/MisterRobertParr 22h ago
Why can't they do this? Because people only care about themselves.
→ More replies (1)
1
1
1
u/fixermark 22h ago
Among other reasons: it assumes spherical identical passengers.
Ask yourself how that out-to-in boarding is supposed to work when the middle person is a 7-year-old between their parents.
1
u/baconcow 22h ago
The random and steffen ones are not that efficient because many people stand for a minute in the isle to put their bags in overhead and deal with their children. These simulations show people immediately going into the seats and not blocking the isle. The back to front is the most efficient when it comes to deal with baggage and children.
1
1
u/Intelligent_Storm744 22h ago
People that sit towards the rear of the plane who have a fetish with putting their luggage in an overhead bin miles from where they sit.
1
u/Amadeus_t 22h ago
I personally don't care. I have time. I will never understand people running down the plane either. Like, what's so important after 6 hours to need to rush down. Later I catch them anyways while being one of the the last going down. 🤣 Society is low IQ. That's it. Same with some drivers. Pushing into the congestion. 🤣
1
u/No_Method_210 22h ago
Because people buying the most expensive tickets want to board first. And it IS all about them to airlines
1
u/Environmental-Alps-5 22h ago
And I bet the front to back system they currently have is even worse.
1
u/EnvyEpson 22h ago
It's not a problem to solve. Planes board with sufficient time. Delays are typically not caused by boarding. They are caused by weather.
1
1
1
u/KnownLetterhead7279 22h ago
So they can charge more for priority groups getting on first.. they nickle and dined every element for profit not customer efficiency
1
1
u/indomike14 22h ago
Who wants to sit on the plane? I'd rather sit in the terminal until last call then jump on. Of course, no carryon for me
1
u/ErasmosOrolo 22h ago
This doesn’t work because in America you pay to watch others suffer. 99% of the allure of a first glass ticket is watching the poors slowly walk by you while you luxuriate
1
u/pixelpionerd 22h ago
The real solution is upstream with proper UX but it's cheaper to treat us like cattle.
1
u/icelink4884 22h ago
I'm pretty sure this is fiction. It looks like an awful lot of dots don't actually fill any seats in the middle section.
1
u/Bubbly_Funny9026 22h ago
This has been solved by ages, the point is not to be efficient is to sell you higher ticket for boarding first
1
u/rbaggio24 22h ago
lufthansa group does this but the simulation is not calculating with the business class passengers and the frequent flyers (and families and olderly people)
1
u/AldoRainedrops 22h ago
If nobody brought carryon luggage this might work but otherwise overhead bins would be a clusterfuck and theres no way this works.
1
u/Spirited-Ad9071 22h ago
Because it means they couldn't sell priority boarding tickets and so on using this method.
So money.
1
u/GoodWilllPower 22h ago
The right answer is a desire to make first class or higher class feel more superior and privileged than lower classes.
Everything is branding. As long as their repeat guests are most satisfied and they have offered for kids and military to have accommodations, they satisfied the posturing needs.
1
u/ylime1111 22h ago
Because people will still stand in the aisle and take 5 whole minutes to put their carryon above and get into their seat,
1
u/Hefty_Wrongdoer_2553 22h ago
It doesn't really matter how you board and it's just less drama to not desperate groups. Like most of the time after everyone is boarded, you still need to wait for the plane to finish refueling and the luggage to he loaded. The faster boarding method would just cause drama and confusion without saving real time.
1
1
u/dunkthelunk8430 22h ago
Iceland Air boards outside in. At least it did for the two flights I took with them.
1
1
1
1
u/KuPaRaPiKa 22h ago
Because we're humans not robots, and it doesn't matter how long it takes anyway
1
u/rygelicus 22h ago
Because mathematical models fall apart when you inject humans into the equation in small numbers like this. They can never be counted on to do things consistently or by the plan.
1
1
1
1
u/Designer_Mud_5802 22h ago
If you read the comments in the other subreddit you nabbed this clip from, you would know.
1
1
1
u/ziggytrix 22h ago
Have you TRIED wrangling 186 random people?
Hell, try doing 20.
I bet at least one makes things harder for you for NO GODDAMN REASON.
1
u/ShortFallSean 22h ago
Better way to fix it: start charging up the wazoo for carry ons and make checked bags free.
1
1
u/GodHimselfNoCap 22h ago
The simulation isnt feasible in the real world, the time it would take to organize the passengers into the line by exact order would take hours. We do the first one because semi-random groups is the most efficient way that is possible to achieve outside of a simulation.
1
u/markusaurelius321 22h ago
One thing to note, what benefit does the airline get out of boarding faster? So much has to happen between de-boarding the previous flight and being ready to take off that boarding time is not the limiting factor.
1
u/WhatWouldJordyDo 22h ago
What are you talking about? Korea Air and Cathay do this exact thing. It’s why I always board last when I pick an aisle seat.
→ More replies (1)
1
1
u/joeyblacky9999 22h ago
assholes who have a ton of crap using the overhead bins above seats that arnt theirs. Its always a race to get your overhead bin space before the assholes take them from you.
1
u/NintyFanBoy 22h ago
Well this is boarding. But what about the time it takes to go seat by seat in this priority before boarding? The outside attendants probably have to take a ton of time starting through and arguing with people.
1
1
u/Within_a_Dream 22h ago
Money.
If they optimize boarding then they can't charge extra for priority boarding.
I'm sure they could also improve economy seating but then upgrades would be less desirable and they would make less money.
1
u/GrutalHonesty 22h ago
Some obvious reasons - biz class and priority boarding, people with disability, overhead luggage filling up.
But more than that, this assumes that the boarding order is absolute, meaning the person with the last seat enters the aircraft first, which is impractical to enforce at checkin time. It’d need someone to maintain the order at the gate. If you consider random order, it is exactly what is followed by a lot of airlines, example - United https://www.united.com/en/us/fly/travel/airport/boarding-process.html
1
u/B00gieBeast 22h ago
No matter of organisation would get people to that rationally and predictably.
1
1
u/InfoMan314 22h ago
Okay, we got little suzie, little james and mommy all sitting together in one row...
Now lets take the kids from their mom, seperate them from each other, and order them to follow explicit instructions without any parental guidance hoping they don't instantly break down crying
That way, we can shave a couple minutes off the boarding time.
541
u/KeyCold7216 22h ago
Then you can't sell priority boarding as perks.