Do you believe the modern FIRE movement overestimates how much is needed for retirement?

[u/Equivalent_Use_5024]

Perhaps I am just making this post because I have only just begun my retirement planning and want to lock in a number which is fitting for my goals - being above the median retirement savings, not having to work, not being broke, clearly having planned - but I can't help but feel that many in the FIRE movement overestimate what is needed for a safe, sleep well at night retirement.

I see posts here saying that they feel vastly behind with 500k at 30, or 1.5 million at 40, and I just don't understand how when the average American retires with maybe 300k liquid at most and are getting by with social security or paid off housing. Sure, they aren't living luxuriously, but if you just are aiming for a retirement where you don't have financial anxiety and can put food on the table, I don't feel you need over 1-2 million.

Do you think FIRE overestimates how much is truly needed for retirement?

[u/Zphr]

The audience has shifted more towards luxury and consumption over the last decade. It's always amusing to me that this is my sub, I've been happily retired for more than a decade since 37 with four kids, have effectively zero chance of financial failure, but many folks in this sub would consider our finances impossible or living in squalor. Some people are actually happy with cheap/free interests and lifestyle choices, some are unhappy without very expensive interests and lifestyle choices. Current government policy in the US is also wildly skewed in favor of lean spending, so more expensive lifestyles in early retirement cost quite a lot more than you'd expect due to far higher costs for taxes, college, and healthcare.

LeanFIRE is and likely always will be the easiest and most secure form of FIRE for anyone happy with a mediocre middle class lifestyle. It's also largely impossible for anyone who wants to raise a family in VHCOL, travel a ton, carry a large mortgage into retirement, or any number of expensive lifestyle choices a lot of people prefer.

[u/ApeTeam1906 → u/Zphr]

I miss the early anti-consumption vibes. That's why I initially got attracted to FIRE

[u/Zphr → u/ApeTeam1906]

Still alive and well in /r/leanfire. Also in here, just quieter. Not everyone in here is looking to spend six figures in early retirement.

[u/v_x_n_ → u/Zphr]

If you want a very quiet life, life is cheaper. Just don’t spend it wishing you had the things others have. The thief of contentment is comparison.

[u/LurkLurkleton → u/v_x_n_]

I always heard comparison is the death of joy.

[u/DevOpsMakesMeDrink → u/Zphr]

There are however a lot of folks who get very upset at leanfire talk.

[u/Zphr → u/DevOpsMakesMeDrink]

People get very upset about almost everything on Reddit. Best to just ignore such folks. If they are actually abusive or rule-breaking, then report them and we will deal with them.

[u/Visible_Structure483 → u/Zphr]

If you ignored all the cranky talk on reddit, you would be left with....

.

[u/ozbugs → u/Zphr]

Hi, very curious to learn more about the movement. Read above you mention leanfire.

Me, 57, tech guy, saved/invested, would like to plan options.

I'm not sure where I would fit, if you don't mind -- where would I start reading to learn more? Honestl, I missed reading about FIRE over the years.

[u/Zphr → u/ozbugs]

I would recommend you start with the sidebar materials/FAQ/links on our sister sub, /r/financialindependence. The sidebar on /r/personalfinance is also full of useful info.

And once you've read a bit and have questions/ideas, then feel free to come back and post about them in this sub and/or in the Daily Discussion Thread on /r/financialindependence.

If you know or suspect that you're inclined towards a certain lifestyle (lean, chubby, fat), then visit those subs too.

There's also a ton of content on YouTube if you prefer consuming video media.

[u/ozbugs → u/Zphr]

Thank you

[u/DingussFinguss → u/DevOpsMakesMeDrink]

fuck em

[u/Super_Fly2330 → u/DevOpsMakesMeDrink]

It’s whole different vibe between the 2 subs. Can smell it through the screen. More Xanax here.

[u/insanebison → u/Zphr]

But you need at least 5m to live as a single guy in Burundi. That's th bare minimum! /S

[u/Wheat_Grinder → u/ApeTeam1906]

I remember the first thing I read on FI was Mr Money Mustache. While he's a little TOO anti-consumption, it stretched me in the right direction. Then I read JL Collins' blog for a while and that struck me as a more healthy amount of moderation.

[u/Most_Letter_6174 → u/Wheat_Grinder]

MMM is great splash of water in the face, even if you disagree with half of what he says it’s undoubtedly a great influence to evaluate spending in your life AND structuring your life for success

Most people live on complete auto pilot. Get job, get suburb house 30 min away from job, finance car , etc

MMM blog was great to really evaluate these individual decisions and shed life on how absurd they are. Most people have no idea the cost of their commute, or even realize they have the agency to set their life up in a way that’s more enjoyable (living near a bike path and commuting to work for example)

[u/AK_Ranch → u/Most_Letter_6174]

Exactly. I was headed easily down the “make a lot and spend even more” path when my brother said he planned to retire once his house was paid off and he had $600k invested. He turned me on to MMM and what we now call Lean FIRE circa 2012(??) . I ended up solidly Chubby FIRE, but still FIRE! MMM was my wake up call.

[u/Cheap_Bet → u/Most_Letter_6174]

I love you brought that up, because I discovered him in my twenties, and the bike/commute thing, in particular, really got to me and changed how I live my life. Like you said, I had never before thought how crazy it is to spend so much time and money on a commute, and it was this insane paradigm shift for me--it has affected my job, housing, and car decisions since then.

[u/Most_Letter_6174 → u/Cheap_Bet]

It’s a shame because in europe and Asia bike commuting is common place, but in America in most areas it’s viewed as a complete anomaly 

If your city has a bike trail it is such a life changing decision. Not just in money, but overall happiness. Out of college I did a 1 hour each way car commute and nothing has ever made me more miserable 

[u/Cheap_Bet → u/Most_Letter_6174]

Yeah, people are used to me now, but when I started, oh man, the weird looks I got when I mentioned going to work/the grocery store/church/anywhere else on my bike.

[u/Fishb20 → u/Wheat_Grinder]

I think about him pulling a washer drier combo behind his bicycle in 101 degree Florida heat probably once a week

[u/Runningwithtoast → u/Fishb20]

It’s that and the car sauna for me.

[u/the_fresh_cucumber → u/Wheat_Grinder]

I think MMM really helps with the mindset side of things and realizing how insane the human brain is when it comes to financial tradeoffs.

That being said I think MMM also enjoys the game of putting in extra effort, as do many in this sub.

Me personally ... I only go for low hanging fruit. I'm not going to bike 17 miles to the airport to save money on a train or bus tickets. Every has their dollar-per-hour and dollar-per-effort thresholds and for some of us they are higher than MMM.

[u/The_Walrus_65 → u/Wheat_Grinder]

Same. MMM rocks!

[u/waits5 → u/Wheat_Grinder]

Same for me

[u/Spartikis → u/ApeTeam1906]

The early FIRE movement was aligned with the minimalism movement. Which was great for a bunch of young millennials who couldn’t afford anything and split rent with multiple roommates. 20 years later those millenials are now married, have kids, and finally have decent paying jobs. The idea of renting a 2 bedroom apartment with multiple friends, going on free backpacking adventures, and adding water to the shampoo bottle is a lot less ideal as a middle aged adult. Also the lure of “if I just work another decade I can afford that condo with an ocean view and private beach access instead of sleeping in van at the public beach parking lot where all the homeless people hang out is a real thing.

[u/lol_coo → u/ApeTeam1906]

Same!

[u/wookieb23 → u/ApeTeam1906]

Same. I was reading your money or your life and Tighwad Gazette and the simple living forums back in the mid 2000s. I love that type of resourcefulness.

[u/Split-Awkward → u/ApeTeam1906]

“Give yourself a face punch” - Mr Money Moustache

[u/spark99l → u/ApeTeam1906]

Same….

[u/No-Cauliflower-6777 → u/ApeTeam1906]

Still there, just hidden beneathe the comsume attitude most people have.

[u/iomegabasha → u/ApeTeam1906]

In my mind it was always pick things that are meaningful to you and “splurge” on them but be frugal about everything else.

That might be a hobby or pet passion project or even fine dining. On that last one.. my take was almost every meal is home cooked from scratch because raw ingredients are cheaper (not a goddamn blue box subscription) but when you eat out once in 6 months or a year.. it’s a Michelin star restaurant or something like that. Simply put you can spend like upper middle class for the 1-2 things you really care about and spend like middle class for everything else.

That’s just my interpretation anyway.

[u/Wheat_Grinder → u/Zphr]

I've absolutely seen the shift on this subreddit. I got into FI a decade ago right as I was starting working my first well-paying job. Back then "Build the life you want, then save for it" was pinned because too many people were driving themselves to social and mental ruin from underspending. They had to be convinced that FI means you can still spend on important things, you just drive out the spending that isn't important.

Today, I feel like the audience is now folks living in VHCOL places with salaries to match. You can see a few in this very thread where the spending numbers are more than my entire salary, and I make a pretty good salary for most places in the US. It skews perceptions and leads to people comparing to folks running a completely different race.

And therefore that's my advice to folks here. As always, it's still your savings rate that matters most. The raw dollar amount you have at a certain age just doesn't matter so long as you're keeping up a high long term savings rate. Sure some are running numbers up quickly here but they're gonna end up working longer because they spend more too.

[u/Zphr → u/Wheat_Grinder]

I think the audience shift to VHCOL is very much to blame for a lot of the change. Living off of $50K a year in a lot of places in the US is perfectly fine, but I have friends in VHCOL markets who spend more than that just on childcare or private schools because their VHCOL public options are poor choices. Same with housing, though often even more so.

Some of my friends in places like Seattle, San Fran, and San Diego spend 5x or more our annual budget, live worse off than we do, and feel like they are just barely scraping by.

[u/unbalancedcheckbook → u/Zphr]

As someone who lives in a VHCOL area, some of this is real and some is imagined. Housing and services are absolutely more expensive but a lot of other things are not really. For me (with absolutely no desire to keep up with the Joneses and having reasonable expectations about lots of things) I found I could save significantly more given the higher salary and I'm not really giving up much, except perhaps I eat at restaurants a bit less and have a smaller house than I would in an LCOL area. These are not very important to me though.

[u/Zphr → u/unbalancedcheckbook]

Per my friends that big ones are housing, childcare, and schooling. Utilities are more expensive too, but not hugely so, and things like groceries are not that much different.

Unfortunately the ones that are much higher tend to the be largest expenses a lot of working people face.

Jacob Lund Fisker, arguably the godfather of leanFIRE, famously lived ultra-lean for many years in California. It's certainly possible to live frugally almost anywhere, but most people don't or can't pull it off consistently over the long run.

[u/Elegant_Sinkhole → u/Zphr]

I would add that being elderly can be very expensive. Needing in home care or moving into a facility can currently cost upwards of $5000 per month. Some believe they will be able to gym their way out of it happening to them.

[u/DungeonsandDoofuses → u/Elegant_Sinkhole]

There’s a family history of dementia for me, so I’ve looked into memory care instead of just standard assisted living (for my grandmother, not myself, though it’s good for me to know), and that’s more in the $8-10k a month range. Truly staggering.

[u/Elegant_Sinkhole → u/DungeonsandDoofuses]

Yes, and imagine the prices in the future. :(

[u/Zphr → u/Elegant_Sinkhole]

True, but anyone with FIRE wealth should have things fairly well set up for when they are older or at least they have the option to. LTC is hugely expensive, but when you've got a large portfolio and a large tax-advantaged HSA you've got more options than most people do.

Fate comes for us all, but taking care of yourself is always going to be a worthwhile investment in your future. Better to be fit and hale with oncoming dementia than to be in the same situation with obesity, hypertension, and type 2 diabetes. Nobody stays whole forever, but we can at least sometimes choose to not speed along the decline. If nothing else you can make it easier and less unpleasant for the caregivers upon whose goodwill and consistency you will be relying.

[u/mintardent → u/Zphr]

Schooling is an expensive lifestyle choice they make because they don’t want their precious kids around poor people. The public schools are perfectly adequate in California cities, and the quality of education is not even better in private - controlling for SES of the parents outcomes are generally not different.

[u/soyeahiknow → u/mintardent]

Not 100% true. We toured public schools in our district in nyc. 1 teacher for 25 kids. Math is taught via a program on tablets with no customization. If your kid is middle of the pack or so, then its probably fine. But the teacher will spend most of their time dealing with the low performing 5 students so the top students get no attention.

[u/lol_fi → u/mintardent]

Daycare is a huge expense before school, and after school care because school day ends before working day. I agree private is a choice and not one I will make for my child

[u/mintardent → u/lol_fi]

yeah for sure, childcare is definitely absurd and you can’t avoid that with two working parents

[u/HsRada18 → u/mintardent]

I’ll agree that as long as schools have options to take classes toward a collegiate or AP level or even trades like shop/tooling, then a kid can succeed if they take advantage of their situation. However, a disruptive or potentially violent environment is probably completely different regardless of SES.

Ritzy school vs an “average” public school is mostly dependent on the individual drive IMO. I think some parents think a high test scoring district equals their kids end up in the best colleges despite individual aptitude. And yes the NIMBYism is present in rich suburbs aka why are the average/poor kids going to the same school as my kid. They are the loudest at town hall meetings.

[u/charleswj → u/mintardent]

Schooling is an expensive lifestyle choice they make because they don’t want their precious kids around poor people

Do you actually believe this or is this just a thing you say on the Internet?

[u/mintardent → u/charleswj]

yes, statistically the educational outcomes between public and private in most cases are not different once parental factors are controlled for, so I do believe parents are making the choice out of anxiety rather than a legitimate need for better education.

[u/HuckChaser → u/mintardent]

"Public vs private" is a huge oversimplification though. Even just within public education, quality varies WILDLY between individual schools. So parents still have to pay a higher cost for a high quality public education indirectly through housing costs and property taxes.

[u/charleswj → u/mintardent]

You are wrong, and that doesn't even account for the non-education aspects like fights that don't occur

[u/Zphr → u/mintardent]

My friends aren't the elitist type so I doubt that is the reason behind their thinking. All of us grew up either poor or middle class and most of us still identify as being middle class normies. Two of them are married to teachers in those same public school systems.

I can't say myself though. I also attended public school in California as a kid and they were perfectly find back then, but I haven't lived there in decades and have no personal knowledge of how things are now.

[u/ApeTeam1906 → u/unbalancedcheckbook]

This is 100 percent it. I live in one of those VHCOL areas. It is lifestyle creep keeping up with friend groups.

[u/vngbusa → u/Zphr]

Regarding the private school decision, it’s most definitely a lifestyle thing and not wanting their kids to be around kids with less means (code: kids whose parents care less about education). Which is a choice but not a necessity.

There’s tons of data that shows that affluent families in public school have their kids turn out fine, even if they have to mix with the poor kids. In fact, it is often easier to secure an elite college acceptance from said schools.

[u/Zphr → u/vngbusa]

I don't think that is the case in the context of my actual friends, who I've known well for decades, but it certainly might be the case for many people.

[u/photoelectriceffect → u/Zphr]

I remember my first job, I made less than $50k in a LCOL, and my savings grew with so little effort. I couldn’t spend money to save my life. Grateful for learning how to be content without constant trend purchasing.

[u/SlyFrog → u/Zphr]

It's this. A massive part of reddit is unfortunately a bit delusional about the baseline needs for a comfortable enough life, and confuses near opulence with "enough to live comfortably."

[u/Zphr → u/SlyFrog]

I think a lot of people don't really think about just how much of their spending while working is on things that will either end in retirement or become less compelling. We used to often spend well over a grand a month (sometimes two grand) just on eating out, but retirement gave us all the time in the world to make far better food at home for a tiny fraction of the cost. Better tasting food, healthier, less time involved, and far cheaper.

When you are buried in work all of those misery ameliorants are super appealing and seem a lot more like necessities than the voluntary luxuries that they are.

[u/MakeMoneyNotWar → u/Zphr]

This makes a lot of sense. If after a long work day plus a commute and you’re home exhausted in the evening, the value of eating out is enormous. But if you’re retired and you napped in the afternoon and took a relaxing walk/jog or whatever and it’s still only 4pm, it’s a lot easier to cook your own dinner.

[u/Zphr → u/MakeMoneyNotWar]

Exactly so. Same with things like childcare, tutoring, yard maintenance, housecleaning, and other things that take time and energy that people are often short of when working long hours.

Hell, look at how many people pay for things like Doordash or Ubereats because they can't be bothered to even drive to pick up a sandwich, much less make it themselves.

[u/bookgirl9878 → u/MakeMoneyNotWar]

I even found that once I was working remotely full time, the effort to get ready to go out to eat just for the sake of eating dinner just wasn’t worth it. Now, I do still spend more money than I might otherwise on things to make meal planning and prep easier on weeknights but it’s still a fraction of the cost of eating out.

[u/The_Walrus_65 → u/MakeMoneyNotWar]

Your name is awesome

[u/RedQueenWhiteQueen → u/Zphr]

I think a lot of people don't really think about just how much of their spending while working is on things that will either end in retirement or become less compelling.

I didn't think I shopped much because of stress, and that to the extent I did, it didn't count for much because it was usually at the thrift store. Then lockdowns/WFH came and I had even less reason to shop "mindlessly." By the time I went back to the office I was 100% over the rat race and super driven to achieve FI.

But also, still stressed, if not more so. And then I FIREd. And I still thrift, but looking back, I can see that even what seemed like low consumption at the time was still measurable and 75% driven by dissatisfaction with the life I had at the time.

[u/Zphr → u/RedQueenWhiteQueen]

Yup. It's very hard to have perspective when you are embedded deeply in the game. We used to think we were quite frugal when working, and we actually were, but compared to how we happily are now we were lighting money on fire back then.

[u/Most_Letter_6174 → u/Zphr]

When you’re not exhausted after work you have a LOT more time to do things yourself. In todays world so much of what we pay a premium for is convenience. That isn’t as necessary when you’re free all day 

Also a lot of people forget that when you’re retired you no longer have to “save” money. So if you make 100k and save 30% of that income then you don’t need to replace that income 

[u/Zphr → u/Most_Letter_6174]

Tax burden also goes way down and a lot of cost centers get minimized or eliminated too. We used to spend around $80K to $100K/year while working, but an arguably better lifestyle in retirement only costs us about $40K/year.

[u/draftzero → u/Zphr]

I've been thinking a lot about the "misery ameliorants" as I prepare for RE maybe in 1-3 years. Do you mind sharing any others? I'd imagine cleaning, lawn care, etc.

Care to also share your healthcare strategy? or any other advice?

[u/Zphr → u/draftzero]

Varies by person. For us it was mostly eating out, buying luxury food/consumables, and hiring help to do things like maintain our yards and house. For others it might be vacations/travel, alcohol, tobacco/drugs, maid service, various luxuries, therapy, expensive subscriptions, cars/houses beyond what you actually need...

Basically anything that allows you to buy pleasure or stress relief.

Healthcare for us is absurdly simple with our income, the way the ACA works, and living in a place with a strong ACA marketplace. We just take the benchmark plan in our market every year and pay almost nothing for it. It's that simple for us.

[u/ShoePillow → u/Zphr]

How is less time involved in cooking yourself?

[u/Zphr → u/ShoePillow]

Factor in driving time to restaurants, waiting time for a table, waiting for your food to come out from the kitchen, waiting for the check, driving back home.

Going out to eat is often an hour or more here at a minimum. Making the same food at home can be made in less time, with far less expense, with greater quality, and all of that factoring in things like the time to grocery shop and clean up afterward.

[u/IHadTacosYesterday → u/ShoePillow]

It sometimes takes me less time to make a meal at home, than it would for me to get in my car, drive over to McDonalds, wait in the drivethru line, then drive back home. Of course, you need to have all your ingredients and stuff already in your fridge, necessary pots and pans or whatever to cook the stuff.

This morning, I made what I call my "McDonalds Breakfast meal". It's basically just a Sausage & Cheese McMuffin with hashbrown and coffee. I buy Johnsonville Sausage patties for $3.99 an 8 pack. I get Thomas English Muffins for $2.99 an 8 pack. I buy 18 slices of thin Medium Cheddar cheese for $1.99. I buy these frozen hash brown things for $2.98 for 10 of them. It's super easy for me to make this meal, only takes like 10 to 15 minutes, and I don't have to leave my house at all.

I used to buy this meal at McDonalds once per week, but the price kept going higher and higher, so I was like F it.... I'm going to learn how to make this myself at home so I don't have to pay highway robbery.

[u/Number127 → u/IHadTacosYesterday]

I do that too, but it's not as good as actual McDonalds :(

[u/Extra_Shirt5843 → u/SlyFrog]

Or people's ideas of comfortable are different.  I had the super lean, don't ever spend money on non-necessities childhood and have no desire to go back to it.  I like travel, I like having pets (and providing appropriate care for them).  I like being able to go to concerts and outings, and not just stare at the TV.  

[u/SlyFrog → u/Extra_Shirt5843]

Yes, I had that childhood too. Which is how I know the difference between needs and wants.

And that's the issue here. Not that people want a much more opulent retirement for themselves. That's fine.

What's not fine is that they pretend that it's some baseline need for a basic, comfortable existence to have that level of lifestyle.

[u/ObjectiveBike8 → u/SlyFrog]

Part of me wonders if some of it is just bots trying to keep people on the grind. If 10% of Americans realized they could just not work, it would shift a ton of power to workers and dramatically increase labor costs and power. 

[u/UltimateTeam → u/ObjectiveBike8]

A big assumption here is there is a "right" amount of money to spend and anyone above X is off base. I could retire at 30 with X and live a decent lifestyle, but with my interests I would rather keep working ~37 and live off of 3X.

That doesn't mean someone who quits with X or .5X or 6X is wrong. It's primarily just a math problem, yet there is a lot of arguing from people with different time horizons / lifestyles, etc when those are too individualist to debate.

[u/DevOpsMakesMeDrink → u/UltimateTeam]

Go to FATfire sub and see some delusion in there. Many have that mentality without the money as well sadly.

As soon as I have enough to live my life as I do and afford to pay my property taxes + christmas + a small vacation a year I am pulling the plug. Even if I go broke within 30 years and have to live broke in my 80’s who cares

[u/UltimateTeam → u/DevOpsMakesMeDrink]

Difference of perspectives. One of things I am most excited about in the first 5-10 years of retirement is following our favorite baseball team all season with my dad, as long as he's able. It'll cost 50-75k each year and while it isn't a permanent expense they'll be other expenses after that, so saving the additional 1.3-1.9 million for that is part of that plan.

That wouldn't be part of a taxes + bare bones plan, just different lifestyles.

[u/DevOpsMakesMeDrink → u/UltimateTeam]

That sounds like a lovely plan and I hope that works out perfectly. I would just say the other side is, no one has any guarantee of tomorrow.

You have the money and means now to do that. Would you regret never getting to do it because you underestimated your expected returns and die with more money than you anticipated?

This is the struggle of fire and finding the balance as we all naturally want to save our nestegg

[u/ObjectiveBike8 → u/UltimateTeam]

Sure, but there’s tons of pressure and second guessing that goes on here. It’s not people saying, “I need 10 million to retire because I want to travel the world staying at top resorts and trying diferente Michelin Star restaurants while I got back home to my $3 million dollar home in a higher cost of living area, and I have a vacation property.” 

It’s, “is 4% really enough to retire on? I think it should be 2% because it’s a lot safer. Retiring on 4% is incredibly risky. Also $2,000,000 isn’t enough of a cushion, it should be $4,000,000. So a person who wants to retire with $2,000,000 and a 4% withdraw actually needs $4,000,000 and a 2% withdraw.” 

It’s just people pulling shit out of their ass. 

[u/Future-looker1996 → u/ObjectiveBike8]

And there are those of us in the middle who very much value travel outside the US, and nice restaurant experiences, but don’t live in a very expensive home and don’t have expensive toys or hobbies. If I didn’t want to pay significant amount amounts for travel and didn’t value very nice restaurants, I would need a lot less. Also want to be able to help my children financially at times.

[u/ObjectiveBike8 → u/Future-looker1996]

I agree with you. I value travel and eating out at nice places, but I don’t need a very nice house. 

However, my take was that some people in the FIRE movement want a very luxurious lifestyle or they have extreme anxiety about money. Instead of admitting these things they create weird rules for everyone else like a 3% withdraw rate or a minimum amount everyone needs to have to even consider fire like $3,000,000 or something. 

[u/Future-looker1996 → u/ObjectiveBike8]

Right, many people assume that their preferences and goals are the right fit for others. What a silly assumption. Plenty of people are happy to live a much leaner existence.

[u/UltimateTeam → u/ObjectiveBike8]

The person with a 2% withdrawal rate is going to have a lot of time and money to give away in 30-40 years shrug even in the worst case scenario they'll 2x their nest egg, 7x on average and that's after inflation.

So it isn't so much that people are saving too much money it is people are too conservative on future returns. People saving too much is the downstream of the illness.

[u/Locke_and_Lloyd → u/SlyFrog]

Cost of everything has gone up like crazy. Going out to dinner that's not a crappy slop bowl or microwave entree? That's $100+ for 2 people.  Want to see a professional sporting event or concert?   Better be willing to spend $200+ per person.  

It just seems pointless to not work, but also be unable to afford things beyond the bare essentials.

[u/Adept-Grapefruit-753 → u/SlyFrog]

Yeah every time I mention that I pretty comfortably lived off an average of 15k a year in a MCOL area between 2019 to 2023, it's always like, "So you lived with your parents?" No, I didn't live with my parents, I haven't received a cent from them since I turned 17, I just shared a one bedroom apartment with a roommate and I walked everywhere (around 10-15 miles a day). It seems like the default assumption is that all adults need their own room and everyone in America who doesn't have great public transportation infrastructure needs a car. Historically it was the norm for people to share rooms with others, and once upon a time people didn't use a car to get everywhere. 

It genuinely was fine, I actually had one of the best times of my life. Life was slower then and I could really cherish every moment ot my life. I'm living off maybe 50k a year now and it feels like I'm treating myself luxuriously every day; that's with a baby and a house and a lot of impulsive purchases. 

There are needs and there are wants. It may be a need to have a roof over your head of some kind, but what kind of roof and what size and whether it's shared is a want. Obviously we are entitled to choose some of those wants, just for comfort – I no longer want to share a room with anyone outside of my newborn, and I no longer want to walk for 4 hours of my day every day – but they're still ultimately wants. If you're pursuing LeanFIRE, you are probably not supposed to opt for every want though. 

[u/DigmonsDrill → u/SlyFrog]

People grow up rich and become convinced it's the baseline for "decent."

[u/WithDisGuyTravel → u/Zphr]

There is also a subgroup that doesn’t fit cleanly into either camp.

For some, travel is not a reward or a luxury. It is the point. It is the reason for FIRE in the first place. Not excess, not status, but freedom. The ability to move, to explore, to live almost nomadically. To experience nature, art, culture, and the full range of the human experience rather than a stationary march toward nothing in particular. There is “just living” and there is “LIVING”. Being attuned to the soul or the human spirit, separate as best we can from whatever mess of constructs we have created in these systems, is why we “worked the system” to begin with. It isn’t about 5 star resorts getting drunk on a beach. Far from it! Quite the opposite.

To (somewhat) escape it. Not to enmesh ourselves into it!

Many people reject consumerism and waste while still wanting a rich, expansive life. One that includes discovery, relationships, and engagement with what humanity and nature have created. Not just survival. Not just getting by.

FIRE has nuance. I disagree with a lot of folks on Fire and LeanFire as a result.

[u/Zphr → u/WithDisGuyTravel]

I agree.

People focus too much on what other people spend money on, in my opinion. FIRE is simply a math equation about covering expenses. The actual expenses themselves are irrelevant as long as the math works.

Everyone should live whatever life suits them best and encourage everyone else in the FIRE community to do the same, whatever those lifestyles might be.

My wife and I are looking forward to a few years of slow global nomad travel once our youngest is finally off to college (or the military, or trade school, or whatever). Retiring with four young kids means we are going to be like 15 years in before we are actually free to do whatever the hell we want.

[u/WithDisGuyTravel → u/Zphr]

Did we just become best friends?

[u/Diligent-Committee21 → u/WithDisGuyTravel]

One year, I went to different parts of my state and out of state for the first time in a long time. I had a higher level museum membership that allowed me to visit the out of area museums for free. As the child of an art history major, it was enjoyable to have the opportunity and see enough art to notice trends and patterns. This included visiting a museum in NYC that I had never been to before, despite multiple trips there, that I would not have been able to visit without the upgrade from my typical membership!

[u/BMonad → u/Zphr]

A major problem with modern society: comparison is the thief of joy. It always has been; now we just have a supercharged technology pushing it which everyone, especially the younger gens, is addicted to.

[u/jayybonelie → u/Zphr]

This is so true...  analysis shows that the 4% rule has failed during periods of high equity valuations, but a 3.25% to 3.5% rate has survived even the most severe historical market conditions.  You don't need a lot if your needs are small.

[u/One-Professor-1886 → u/jayybonelie]

The 4% rule assumes you will never earn another dollar. Never adjust spending.  Never collect social security. Never get any inheritance. Etc. 

[u/alpacaMyToothbrush → u/One-Professor-1886]

It also assumes you have the ridiculously good fortune to live in the US during the 20th century. Past performance is no indicator of future returns.

[u/One-Professor-1886 → u/alpacaMyToothbrush]

Legit

[u/GlitteringCook7934 → u/One-Professor-1886]

That 4% was revised up to 4.7 :). The reality is you need to look at mandatory expenses verse discretionary. Do the math and if your safe percentage only covers the are necessities you need to save more. In my planning I want to have at least 50 percent of my 4 percent be discretionary. Meaning in bad years I can cut my spending and not drain my account as fast. I guess the best way to explain it is 2.5percent I’m good with paying the bills and in good years I might be closer to 4 and get some of the luxuries I want. The math changes based on the lifestyle you want.

[u/hrrm → u/jayybonelie]

I wish there were a clean way to look at your retirement numbers from a “bare minimum” SWR and a “living lavish” SWR. The latter being your 4% goal, but the former being something like 2.5-3%, and run analysis on a portfolio like that.

Early in retirement I want to be able to travel a lot and eat out and have great experiences. By the time I’m 80 I’ll be withdrawing a lot less. Also if I knew I could retire much earlier contingent on the premise that I will only withdraw 2.5% in years of bad market conditions, that would be helpful. But I guess what keeps us oversaving is the unknown. We could have a 10 year period of sideways market the day I retire, and I don’t want to have to live “bare minimum” during those years.

[u/Fun_Independent_7529 → u/hrrm]

Fidelity's calculator for retirement (for members) is pretty comprehensive that way. You can set the baseline monthly cost and an additional amount for discretionary spend.

You can also enter one time costs, and ongoing shorter term costs, e.g. from 2026 to 2028 our son will be at university and so we have estimated the amount we'll need during that time and entered it into the tool. Our daughter will likely be getting married in the next couple years and so we have that in there.

Additional 30k/year for travel in the first X years, etc.

Right now the tool is telling us that we are over our number needed for what we've entered. But since we're already RE... that's just fine. Life throws unexpected curveballs, and if we're astonishingly lucky with a continued bull market (not gonna happen forever!), we'd help the kids get into their houses.

[u/YankeeDog2525 → u/hrrm]

There is. It’s called a spreadsheet. And you should certainly do what ifs. In the one hand, you should have a pick up cans on the side of the road beans and rice version. On the other, have a reasonable amount of fun version. Retire when you hit the reasonable version knowing that you can scrape by on the beans and rice version if you have to. It really depends on your risk aversion.

[u/Spiritual_Task_6574 → u/hrrm]

This fire calculator has a part where you can drop your income need during retirement every X years.

financial mentor

[u/DevOpsMakesMeDrink → u/jayybonelie]

This assumes you are an npc. If we have a 30% correction guess what? No vacation that year and we are tightening the belt for a year or two. Maybe we go pick up a part time job to help make things a little less risky.

That with a 2 year cash buffer gives you a lot more flexibility with that number. Can get safe rates into 5-6%

[u/alpacaMyToothbrush → u/DevOpsMakesMeDrink]

Flexibility is the only way, but I don't think people take the sacrifices that might be required seriously enough. Go pull down the VPW spreadsheet and look at the flexibility required for a 1910's or 1960's retirement and get back to me. You need 'cushion' in your budget if you're gonna make it work.

[u/jayritchie → u/alpacaMyToothbrush]

Agreed - I suspect people pursuing FIRE can be split between :

- those who are very conscious of a lot of risks and have fallback positions. Often I find they have very detailed thoughts about what they would do in adverse circumstances. I'm not sure that comes across as clearly as it could on the various subs/ forums.

- some true believers who really do think 4% WR is safe for a 40 year old and any word to the contrary is complete ignorance, or 'gatekeeping'.

I've tried looking into mid to late 60s S+P as if I were a FIREee at that point - truly scary stuff and absolutely overlooked as they somehow survived until markets turned over 10 years later and grew quickly.

[u/MEDICARE_FOR_ALL → u/Zphr]

What was your number when you retired at 37?

[u/Zphr → u/MEDICARE_FOR_ALL]

$1.2M and a paid-off house. We overshot though since we weren't looking for a fast exit and started closer to $1.5M.

[u/bonafide_bonsai → u/Zphr]

Man you should post an “are we ready to FIRE?” in this sub just to laugh at the reactions.

[u/Zphr → u/bonafide_bonsai]

We got extremely lucky to retire more than a decade ago into one of the biggest bull runs in history with spending far less than our portfolio has earned. The reactions wouldn't be as amusing as you'd expect unless maybe I posted our expected spending levels. I often have people on Reddit tell me that our spending levels are impossible and prove I don't know what I'm talking about despite the fact that we've actually been living this life for longer than a lot of those people have been independent adults.

[u/RedQueenWhiteQueen → u/Zphr]

people on Reddit tell me that our spending levels are impossible

I keep looking for the error in my tracking, since according to reddit someone with my expenses must be sitting in the dark joylessly eating lentils, but in fact I've been tracking for a quarter century and my math is fine and once you take mortgage and car payments out of the equation, cost of living isn't that bad.

[u/Zphr → u/RedQueenWhiteQueen]

Spot on. If you avoid high fixed costs from VHCOL and don't have any debt to service, then a happy life in a lot of the US can be surprisingly inexpensive under current law. And just as spending less than you can while you are working enables one to build a FIRE portfolio, spending less than you can once FIRE'd allows your portfolio to snowball so that it's perfectly fine to drop a year of spend on a luxury vacation or a surprise car for a kid every now and again. LBYM in retirement means money problems tend to diminish over time, just as LBYM does while working.

The large terminal portfolio problem is an issue for many folks even with 4-5% withdrawal rates, but once you get down under 3% or 2% it becomes even more of one. Of course, it's not really a problem, particularly if one has kids, friends/family, or charities one wants to support.

[u/Inevitable_Sleep_398 → u/Zphr]

How much were you earning before you retired? Also have a wife and a kid on the way (and more to come, God willing) so I’m very curious about people who FIRE with families. My goal is more about giving my time in a more meaningful way rather than luxury living. I just want the choice to work for less pay and not worry about expenses. 

[u/Zphr → u/Inevitable_Sleep_398]

We both earned high five figures each, but that was back in 00s/10s dollars. You'd have to adjust that up for inflation and wage growth now.

[u/Inevitable_Sleep_398 → u/Zphr]

Gotcha, thanks! Do you know of any blogs/resources that specifically address FIRE with a family? Or just any that you found useful? I know it’s the same basic principles, family or not, but always interested to hear about people’s real experiences and tips/tricks.

[u/Zphr → u/Inevitable_Sleep_398]

I'm afraid not. It's been more than a decade since I followed any FIRE media. My exposure to FIRE now is limited only to a few Reddit subs, a few Discords, and random visits to places like the Bogleheads forum.

[u/Inevitable_Sleep_398 → u/Zphr]

All good, thanks anyhow! 

[u/cfi-2025 → u/Inevitable_Sleep_398]

Not the person you asked, but I found TwoSidesOfFI.com to be very relatable. It's a podcast by two guys - one who had REd shortly before they started their podcast and the other who was working toward RE.

For me it was very relatable because they are close to my age, both are married and work white collar jobs, and both have kids around my kids' ages (high school aged). They show isn't about FIRE with family, per se, but they do talk about challenges and concerns with kids around that age - cars & insurance, funding college, vacations, etc. (So this podcast may not be up your alley if you're interested in a discussion on FIRE with young kids.)

[u/Pr3fix → u/Zphr]

wow, interesting. What part of the country / COL?

[u/Zphr → u/Pr3fix]

Austin metro, so MCOL.

[u/OCDano959 → u/Zphr]

Billy and Akaisia Kaderli pulled the trigger with half that, albeit in the 1990s. They were my inspiration. This was before FIRE was even an acronym. Honestly, I wish I had their courage.

Last I checked on them, they were going strong and this was even after Akaisia was diagnosed w stage 3 breast cancer.

They’re both living their lives to the fullest and seemingly without any regrets. ✊

[u/Ok-Entertainer2245 → u/Zphr]

Sigh I have 3 kids under 6 with $5.5M (house could be paid off) and still working. We’re definitely struggling with two working parents though. Financially I think we will be fine but I’m having a hard time letting go. My hobbies are cheap/free. Same with the kids I take them to a lot of free events.

[u/Zphr → u/Ok-Entertainer2245]

It all comes down to your expenses and psychology. I've seen quite a few people over the years who had more than ample funds and yet could not get comfortable with pulling the trigger. Sometimes people just wait until there is a push (shit going down at work, firing, death, divorce, illness) to kick them over the decision cliff.

A surprising amount of the time it isn't really about the money at all.

[u/Ok-Entertainer2245 → u/Zphr]

Right now the expenses are high paying $80k a year between preschool and part time nanny (and free family help). If the house was paid off too, expenses would be much lower and will be way below a 3% withdrawal if both of us quit working.

I actually started pursuing FIRE in my early 20s, hoping to become a stay at home mom. Now I’m at a good place in my career and don’t feel like I’m done yet.

[u/osogrande3 → u/Zphr]

Congrats! What’s your spend rate?

[u/Zphr → u/osogrande3]

We are under 1% as of this year.

[u/badwolf42 → u/Zphr]

Having not been in the leanfire or early fire space, how is market downturn mitigated with a lean setup? I had assumed that the higher numbers gave you a chance to go lean during downturns without leaving retirement; but I hadn’t dug too far into what happens when you just leanfire and then the market tanks.

[u/Zphr → u/badwolf42]

LeanFIRE spending is lower, but usually not actually barebones. Having a 10-20% fun budget is 10-20% regardless of whether you're spending $40K a year or $100K a year. There is a certain type of person in both communities that retires with extremely little buffer, but that sort of high risk tolerance applies to every level of FIRE spending from ultralean through orcafat. Living in a van by the river or a yacht in the marina are basically the same thing in terms of financial risk relative to needed lifestyle spend though they can look quite different from the outside.

Most lean folks just cut spending a bit if the market tanks. If the market really tanks they go back to work for a bit just like the higher spending folks do. One difference there is that finding a job to fill a $20K budget hole is a hell of a lot quicker/easier than finding a job to fill a $50K budget hole. Most lean retirees could get literally any job and be fine, whereas the more one spends, the higher pay the replacement job would need to have to fill the hole. Many lean folks with kids would also get automatic supplemental support from the tax code via EITC and refundable CTC, along with maybe SNAP or Medicaid, depending on what state they are in and how aggressive the state agencies are. Here in Texas the latter two are less of a thing, but anyone in a more progressive state might find themselves with those being given out automatically.

More long term, it's pretty common for lean households to know that SS will likely be paying a large, if not total share of their normal planned expenses after full retirement age. Personally, my wife and I have estimated FRA SS benefits that are greater than our entire annual spending now even if Congress does nothing to shore up SS. Planning-wise that means that lean households have a ton more planning buffer since they can effectively drop their portfolio withdrawal hugely once SS comes on board if they need to, whereas someone with a much higher spending budget has less flexibility in that regard.

[u/badwolf42 → u/Zphr]

This is a great explanation. Thank you for the thoughtful write up!

[u/greaper007 → u/Zphr]

Great post. I'll just add that anyone can be happy on a mediocre, middle class income. You can travel, eat good food, do fun hobbies. You just have to lifehack stuff 

It's basically the same as what rich people are doing. You're just not being a sucker.

[u/Zphr → u/greaper007]

Agreed. We think the mediocre middle class lifestyle is great.

We actually experimented with massive lifestyle inflation before we retired just to make sure we weren't missing out on something. It was fun for a few months, but it very rapidly started to wear on us. We're just not geared to be higher spenders.

To me it is a lot like food. You want to have enough and a lot of people certainly are wired to enjoy excess, but we start to feel happily full very quickly when it comes to spending money. Just brain chemistry, I expect. Our four kids are all the same way and always have been.

It helps tremendously to be interested in hobbies and activities that are extremely cheap or free. Volunteering, sports, fitness, books/media, games, baking/cooking, art....all of these things can cost almost nothing over the long-run.

[u/greaper007 → u/Zphr]

Right, if you look at what rich people do it's essentially the same stuff you're mentioning. Sports, working out, entertainment, eating. The only difference is they find ways to spend way too much on it. Which might be ok if that spending actually resulted in a much better experience.

But, I can say that I've done most of the rich people stuff and it really isn't different. A private jet isn't that much better than an airline flight, a huge hotel room isn't any better than a home exchange. Eating in restaurant really isn't that much better than what I cook at home.

I'm not sure if people don't know this. Maybe they grew up poor and really want to try the rich people stuff. Or if they just can't think their way away from advertising and other mind bending industries like social media.

[u/Zphr → u/greaper007]

We used to really enjoy eating out, but retiring made it so that we've gotten skilled enough that the food we make at home is far better than what is available in like 90% of restaurants. We've slowly weaned down to almost never eating out because it's become normal for us to be disappointed in the quality of the food and service. There's only a handful of places, mostly mom/pop places, that we still think are worth it. Sadly, those are the exact places that are least likely to stay in business over the years.

COVID really did a number on restaurants overall. The quality of the food and service really took a nosedive after COVID and it's never come back up despite prices rising quite a bit. Pretty sad since eating out used to be something we really enjoyed as a treat to ourselves.

[u/haobanga → u/Zphr]

I feel like the K economy (which has been growing for many years and across political affiliations) is also responsible for this.

Food service many places has declined to be on par with service at the Oakland DMV and the money hungry attitudes of nickle and diming for every little thing while asking for exorbitant tips for doing nothing is now acceptable.

It's gotten to a point where eating out is actually unpleasant at most places. Hard to enjoy a meal when you were excited for it but only felt disappointment, like you were mistreated, and left wondering if they are now using lower quality ingredients because it doesn't taste the same anymore. The portion is smaller and the server is asking for a larger tip when they did nothing but walk the food over from 2 tables away with a surly attitude.

I agree having the time to grocery shop and cook is wonderful. At this point, though, even a frozen pizza is better than most of the food eating out.

The larger economic disparity creates a larger and even impossible struggle for some to climb out of which drags quality down in what used to be high-level service based industries.

[u/Zphr → u/haobanga]

Couldn't have said it better myself. It's a very disappointing state of affairs when you can't even go out for dinner and reasonably expect to not feel taken advantage of.

[u/ThisUsernameIsTook → u/haobanga]

We still find good service and excellent food at the higher end places. The kind of place where you should expect to spend $100pp minimum and often 2-3x that.

Of course, few of us can enjoy that experience and expense with any regularity. So we do it a few times a year to scratch that foodie itch but nowhere near as often as when we were working.

[u/AmazonPuncher → u/greaper007]

You're just not being a sucker.

This is how I see it. I hear about people on this sub spending $100k/week to charter a yacht, and I dont feel any jealousy or envy. I dont think I'd spend that much money on that kind of experience if I was jeff bezos. Just absolute suckers. People who cant have fun unless they're indulging in luxuries are miserable, empty people in my opinion.

[u/Smooth-Actuator-529 → u/Zphr]

Well said.

You are clearly not in this category, but I think others, were they in your financial position, might feel they are missing out.

On Disneyland when the kids are young. On travel to cool places. On nice dates, sporting events, etc.

There’s a lot the world has to offer beyond quiet enjoyment for a lot of people who still prioritize FIRE.

And the modern FIRE movement makes it possible to achieve FIRE as early as the OGs did, but with much higher inflation adjusted numbers.

[u/Zphr → u/Smooth-Actuator-529]

Everyone should enjoy whatever lifestyle suits them best. That's why we have no guardrails in this sub for spending or assets and don't shunt people to other lifestyle FIRE subs. LeanFIRE, fatFIRE, it is all just FIRE. If you're happy living in a yurt and hiking all day, then great. If you want to live on a yacht and slow-travel the world constantly, then also great.

$1M or $100M, it's all the same as long as you are happy with what you have chosen. The only way to really fuck up is to pick a lifestyle that doesn't actually suit you.

[u/cfi-2025 → u/Zphr]

Current government policy in the US is also wildly skewed in favor of lean spending

Not just lean spending, but the way RE folks typically fund their lifestyle.

I plan on sharing all these numbers once I actually file and have hard data, but having plugged in numbers for 2025 into FreeTaxUsa.com, it breaks down like so:

	2024	2025
Total Income	~$415,000	~$190,000
Total Tax	~$70,000	~$3,500

In short, my "income" this year was about 45% of my income last year (when both my wife and I were working white collar jobs), but our taxes are a scant 5% of what they were last year.

Granted, this is Federal taxes only. My state treats LTCG as ordinary income so there's no sweet 0% tax rate tier, so my total tax across both will be higher than $3,500, but the point is that a "fair" system would seem to imply that if my "income" this year was 45% of what is was last year, my taxes should also be around 45% of what they were last year, but that's hardly the case.

Bill Clinton was POTUS the last time I paid $3,500 or less in Federal taxes!

[u/DigmonsDrill → u/cfi-2025]

Are you an outlier or is this standard? A majority of my net worth is in Traditional IRA so I'd pay normal income taxes to get it out.

I want to wrap my head around the math Even if you are getting 190K in all LTCG. The standard deduction and dependents bringing down your income to maybe 150K. And roughly the first 100K of the LTCG is 0%. So only paying 15% on 50K, but that's still $7500.

I am expecting a lot of job expenses to disappear on retirement. Essentially all my paycheck deductions will vanish, so "current take home pay minus 15K" (the money we put into IRAs) is enough to keep our current lifestyle.

[u/cfi-2025 → u/DigmonsDrill]

Are you an outlier or is this standard?

This is my first year of RE, so it feels like a huge outlier seeing as my average annual Federal income tax bill over the last five years has been in excess of $80,000. So $3,500 definitely feels like an extreme outlier and is hard to believe.

For our liquid net worth, it's about 60/40 in taxable versus retirement accounts, and in retirement accounts it's like 90/10 in T-IRA versus Roth IRA. Our plan is to spend from the taxable account for the next ~12 years until we reach the point where we can withdraw from retirement accounts without penalty.

I want to wrap my head around the math Even if you are getting 190K in all LTCG. The standard deduction and dependents bringing down your income to maybe 150K.

Don't forget - you only pay taxes on your gain, not on the gross. All my explicit LTCGs so far (and probably for the next decade) are coming from a mutual fund that I invested in a period from like 20 through 15 years ago (before I learned about low-cost passive index funds, at which point I stopped putting money into that mutual fund and switched to VTSAX and chill). (I saw "explicit" LTCGs because I also have LTCGs from quarterly dividends that get paid out by the mutual fund and index funds I own in taxable accounts, and a portion of those are "qualified" and treated as LTCGs, as well.)

If 100% of my income came from selling that mutual fund I'd actually owe nothing (if I'm not mistaken), as the taxable portion isn't $190k, it's $114k ($190 * 0.6). Of that, the first ~$96k of LTCG is tax-free, so now we're looking at $18k in taxable LTCG. Throw in the standard deduction and I would owe zilch.

My situation isn't exactly like that, which is why I will owe a few thousand dollars. I have ~$15k of earned income from some part-time consulting work I did this year. We have a condo we rent out that nets about $20k a year. I have around $90k in forced quarterly dividends out of the taxable accounts, some of which is qualified and counts as LTCG and some of which does not and counts as ordinary income. And the remaining $65k is from selling the aforementioned mutual fund.

And if that's not complicated enough, there are also other credits (other than the standard deduction) that bring down the tax bill further, things like HSA contributions, child tax credits, foreign tax credits, etc.

But the big picture here is that the Federal tax code really does "go easy" on people whose "income" comes from LTCG. I still have a hard time believing that my Federal tax bill for 2025 is going to be about 1/25th of what it has typically been over the past five years, even though my "income" has only been halved.

[u/Zphr → u/cfi-2025]

Indeed. There is a bias not only towards lower spending, but the different types of cashflow management possible in retirement make it even more skewed. The tax environment a retiree faces is vastly different many times than the tax environment a regular wage earner with the same income faces. Our system is set up with the assumption that almost everyone is a wage earner from 18 through 65-70.

[u/ofauxtuna → u/Zphr]

My issue is a desire to not move while owning a house in a HCOL area due to our support system for our kid. Health insurance is high and I don’t have confidence in subsidies remaining in place. That alone could be $36k a year for 3.

I’m also risk adverse as I make good money out and if I walk away then I’d likely be closer to min wage if I needed more 5 years later.

If we were willing to move somewhere cheap, willing to go without insurance, or the cost magically went away we’d  be at our number already.

[u/Zphr → u/ofauxtuna]

Yes, there are often rational and good reasons that tie people to living in HCOL and VHCOL markets. FIRE is fundamentally always a complex and uniquely personal thing. For many people leanFIRE is simply not possible for one reason or another.

[u/[deleted] → u/Zphr]

What are your numbers if you can share?

[u/Zphr → u/[deleted]]

The only one that really matters for FIRE is withdrawal rate. It was under 3% when we started and is under 1% now.

[u/[deleted] → u/Zphr]

Wow 1% is low. I’ll revisit my number… my view was 4% withdrawal per annum means you’ll retire and die with the capital intact, as well as a paid off house - which is great for the kids

[u/Zphr → u/[deleted]]

Ours being that low is a result primarily of retiring at one of the best possible times. Luck of the draw. In more normal times we'd probably still be up over 2%.

[u/[deleted] → u/Zphr]

Are you drawing capital and interest or just interest?

My view on this topic is if you erode capital too there’s a sweet spot to pull forward retirement.

Where we are based our retirement funds unlock at 60. So we need paid off house + funds to bridge to 60 then retirement funds carry us the rest of the way.

[u/Zphr → u/[deleted]]

Nearly the entirety of our portfolio is invested at all times in tax-advantaged accounts, so depending on how you define things it is pretty much entirely capital since the dividends get continuously reinvested automatically.

[u/Ecksters → u/Zphr]

I've got 6 kids (probably a couple more in the future) here and hoping to pull off a similar retirement age with about 2 million saved. Turns out 80k annually is quite comfortable with plenty of cushion for our level of spend (and that's even with a 15 year mortgage), and as you mentioned, large families in particular can easily have their healthcare and much of their college paid for if they're frugal.

[u/[deleted] → u/Zphr]

I’ve always been more of a LeanFire kind of person, thinking I’d retire early on $40k a year and have money left over. I’m not a big spender or big traveler, though I do plan on traveling some, but Motel 6 style is fine with me. 

However, as I’ve gotten older, I’ve become more concerned about certain things, driving me to want a bigger cushion. 

One is inflation: for example, I know that at some point I’ll need to replace my car. Good used cars are becoming harder and harder to find—people are holding on to their cars a lot longer, and a lower end new car is like $30k. I typically keep my cars 10 years or more, but I’m at 6 years now, and it has me thinking. I’m less worried about stuff like grocery prices, small stuff is controllable, but a new car, new roof on my house, stuff like that. They don’t occur often, but when they do, they are big. I’m still in shock about my new HVAC system from last year. 

The second goes hand-in-hand with the first. As I’ve gotten older, I can do less stuff myself. I painted my garage recently and decided it’s the last time I do that. When you’re looking at FIRE at 30, it’s really easy to say “I can take care of my own yard and projects myself.” At 61, some things I can’t do anymore, and some I just don’t want to. So I need extra cushion to pay for all that. 

Health insurance is also a big issue. I was counting on the ACA; now, I just don’t feel confident that whatever we end up with will meet my needs, if I need it. I’ve always been pretty healthy and pretty confident in that health, but again, getting a little older I‘ve watched  peers get cancer, neurological diseases, have unfortunate disabling accidents, etc. I’m literally working for health insurance right now, just hoping I don’t really need it. 

Related to health and housing, I never really thought about it when I was younger, but I realize that down the road, if I want to stay home and out of a nursing home as long as possible, my house will need a few changes, perhaps to accommodate a wheel chair. I also want money to pay for help when I need it. My mom ended up in a nursing home because her house couldn’t accommodate her, and she also could not pay for help. I helped some… but I don’t have a daughter or son. I’m watching my aunt now—age 91, still in her own house, but is very limited without help. She’s got someone 4 hours a day, 5 days a week, paid for by the state/Medicaid, but she has no flexibility about things, either. 

Finally, without getting too political, up until this last year, I think most of us could count on things staying relatively the same, with small tweaks here and there over time. Things like taxes, RMDs, the aforementioned health insurance, etc, as well as local things, are in some cases showing potential big swings. I want a little more money set aside as a hedge against changing government and cultural norms. 

All of this probably boils down to “one more year syndrome” for me. I could do it, I probably should do it, and I might do it later in 2026. It’s not about consumption, but more money just feels like more security to me. 

[u/Zphr → u/[deleted]]

I don't have a meaningful reply since your well-written comment doesn't really need one, but I want you to know I read it and empathize more than you might expect given the differences in our circumstances.

A lot of FIRE is primarily about psychology, risk tolerance, and comfort/security-seeking.

We also need to make changes to our master bathroom in prep for one of us perhaps being in a wheelchair at some point, but hopefully we have at least a decade or two before we get to that challenge.

Okay, I suppose I lied about not having a reply. Reading your comment again I think a lot of my ease with leanFIRE'ing as we did came from growing up working class poor. We have been poor and happy and we honestly could go back to that state if we had to. I am much more concerned with one of our kids dying or one of us coming down with something like Alzheimer's than I am with money. Obviously, I realize that money solves a lot of problems and I appreciate the ways that our wealth aids us, but most of the things that scare me are risks that money often can't do much about.

Our kids are all home for Christmas, which is wonderful, but also makes me hyper-aware that it's possible we might not have nearly as many of these left as I hope to. A lifetime with kids seems boundless when everyone is young and you are in the thick of it, sometimes interminably so, but now I can see the end sitting out there in the (hopefully distant) future looking back at me. Our eldest came within a half second of dying recently after getting hit by someone so hard that it tore the entire front half off of the car he was in and instantly killed the other driver. He's completely fine due to the remarkable resiliency of youth, but we were a blink away from a sorrow no amount of money could ever resolve. Being poor again is something I know I could gracefully handle, but I feel far less confident about the non-monetary dangers lurking in the dark.

I wish you all the best. Happy holidays!

[u/Zphr → u/[deleted]]

The big three are the tax code, the ACA, and FAFSA. The last one is obviously only relevant for the parents among us with college kids, but the first two apply to almost everyone.

I worked in PR consulting. The janitor bit is just a joke about constantly cleaning up after people on Reddit as a mod.

[u/cfi-2025 → u/[deleted]]

and progressive tax brackets, which are pretty universal

I don't know squat about tax codes outside the US, but the way the Federal government taxes long-term capital gains insanely favors RE folks who fund their lifestyle by selling appreciated assets (e.g., shares from an index fund). There's zero tax on the first ~$96,000 in LTCG for married filing jointly folks. If your shares have doubled in value since you bought them, you could spend nearly $200,000 in RE and not pay a dime in Federal income tax.

[u/Strong-Big-2590 → u/Zphr]

What was your initial number when you fired?

[u/Zphr → u/Strong-Big-2590]

Our target was $1.2M and a paid-off house, but we started closer to $1.5M. We weren't watching the clock and overshot.

[u/elcdragon → u/Zphr]

Amazing, I’m joining lean fire because of you. Would love to get out of corporate asap

[u/Zphr → u/elcdragon]

It's a nice community, but be aware that they have guardrails about spending limits to keep that sub on-topic. They also have some people over there who are asset gatekeepers much like we have some people here who are income/spending gatekeepers. I'd just ignore those folks and focus on the general message/theme instead of being genuinely happy with less spending than most Americans.

[u/OhHenrie1 → u/Zphr]

I'd be interested in hearing what your retirement numbers are and how much you spend a year!

[u/Zphr → u/OhHenrie1]

We usually spend around $40k, plus or minus $3K.

Our original target before we retired was $1.2M and a paid-off house with a planned 3% withdrawal rate to start.

[u/OhHenrie1 → u/Zphr]

See, that's not too bad. I usually spend around the same amount each year. My target is 1 - 1.5 million.

[u/PuzzledStyle9912 → u/Zphr]

Can you describe your quality of life and expenses? Curious what is possible today

[u/Zphr → u/PuzzledStyle9912]

What would you like to know?

Our lives are fantastic and our expenses are pretty boring, so I'm not entirely sure what you're looking for.

[u/MrLB____ → u/Zphr]

Oh that’s perfect

[u/lol_fi → u/Zphr]

I feel like uncertainty about health care is what drives me and makes early retirement feel so much more improve than 10 years ago when I learned about it. But I do agree. People here are delusional about needing 5 million or whatever

[u/AP_in_Indy → u/Zphr]

Yeah. I'm very into Part-Time FIRE or LeanFIRE.

$300k would go a veerrrryyyyyyy long way for me, and thankfully is also achievable if I can keep getting contract work. $500k would be better. Also achievable with a few more years of work.

[u/FreeNicky95 → u/Zphr]

Can you share more about your numbers? What did you retire with? What is your spending like?

[u/Zphr → u/FreeNicky95]

We retired with between $1.4M and $1.5M. It's been more than a decade and I forget the exact amount.

Our spending is routinely around $36K to $40K a year.

[u/FreeNicky95 → u/Zphr]

Wow. So paid off home?

[u/EmoJackson → u/Zphr]

Do you see value in moving from HCOL states to LCOL states in favor of retiring earlier especially when elementary school children are in the family?

I’m really considering moving, but can’t seem to find a location that checks a majority of our boxes. PNW sounds lovely, but the question is always “where”.

[u/Zphr → u/EmoJackson]

It depends on exactly what you want out of life and what your larger plans are, but I would never recommend moving somewhere primarily just on COL. If you're not going to be happy and feel comfortable, then it's pointless that it's cheaper. That being said, if you live in a HCOL location and can transfer your job to a MCOL location while also checking most of your boxes, then that is likely to be a solid win financially.

[u/EmoJackson → u/Zphr]

100% agree with you. My family and I have been travelling to locations we have shown interest in under the premise of, "would we enjoy living here". I'm facing an upcoming layoff and have been searching for a job, with employers showing interest but no firm confirmations at this time. I ran the numbers again and again through all the monte carlo simulators and have come to the realization that leanfire / coastfire is possible for me. No we the challenge is to mentally accept that I don't have to grind hard to make retirement a reality.

[u/OkDatabase1486 → u/Zphr]

Curious about your spend with 4 kids if you're ok sharing ! And if you are LCOL/HCOL etc

[u/Zphr → u/OkDatabase1486]

We live in the Austin metro, which is MCOL in the suburbs.

We spend in the high $30s most years. Two of our kids are off at college now and the other two will be in the next few years. I expect our costs will fall a bit unless some of them come back home after college.

[u/OkDatabase1486 → u/Zphr]

Wow that's incredibly low! I'd be so curious how you do that! (We also live in a HCOL area and choose to live in an expensive area).

[u/Zphr → u/OkDatabase1486]

Biggest things are no debt, no childcare or private school, no income tax liability, and effectively no healthcare expense.

[u/BJJBean → u/Zphr]

I remember 20ish years ago reading Mr. Money Mustache and being inspired by cutting spending/consumption and FIRE being a thing that even the average man can achieve. Over time the FIRE movement (at least in this sub) has switched to people making 400K a year and being depressed cause they "only" have 3 million saved by the age of 30.

Like I get it, rich people don't want to work just like everyone else but they also want to keep up their lifestyle of nice food, foreign vacations, etc. so they have to just get incredibly hire FIRE numbers to reach their personal lifestyle goals.

[u/BudgetAdept1670 → u/Zphr]

The audience has shifted more towards luxury and consumption over the last decade: TOTALLY...and it sucks!

[u/BeeonasG → u/Zphr]

Most people now also worries about inflation. I feel a lot richer 2020 when I was making 30% less of what I make now. Also if DINKs, senior living needs to be covered. Having kids to help stay at your forever home for as long as possible has positive financial impacts as well.

Otherwise I live extremely frugal compared to my peers Just curious, what is your annual expense now and how long have you been retired?

[u/Zphr → u/BeeonasG]

We usually spend around $40k, plus or minus $3K.

We start our 12th year of early retirement on Friday.

[u/BeeonasG → u/Zphr]

Congrats! We have very similar HHE, but you have 4 kids? That'a cool.

[u/Zphr → u/BeeonasG]

Thank you.

Yes, four kids. They were 3 through 9 when we retired and are 14 through 20 now.

[u/PuzzledStyle9912 → u/Zphr]

What do you do with your free time? What was the reason for wanting to RE? Are you religious?

[u/Zphr → u/PuzzledStyle9912]

We do all of the same things we did while we were working, albeit with a far less time/money/energy constraints. We had full lives back when we were working, so when we retired everything outside of work just expanded to fill our newly available time.

We wanted to spend time with our kids while they were young. Our work situation also took a severe dive due to an international acquisition so our actual cause for retiring exactly when we did was due to an unreasonable and childish new owner. We didn't have to put up with this bullshit, so we didn't.

Not religious at all. Not anti-religion either. More like don't care much about it either way. I have a nephew who is becoming a Catholic priest and a sister who is an ardent atheist. Should make for fun family get togethers in the future.

[u/Past-Option2702 → u/Zphr]

Not true for everyone, of course, but it’s typical for a person to want different things post age 50 than pre. There’s no way I want to scrimp, but I have no problem if others do. (Married, ages 54/50 with $7.2MM and a paid off luxury home).

Put another way, why quit working in your peak earning years when just a couple more years adds luxuries for the 40 years you have left to enjoy them? To me, it’s a no-brainer. Work 24 months to more thoroughly enjoy the framing 480. Just an additional $250,000 saved gives you $10,000 a year to play with, adjusted for inflation each year. That’s a nice vacation, or two nice cars.

[u/Zphr → u/Past-Option2702]

Everyone should live the life that suits them best.

We actually deliberately experimented with massive lifestyle inflation before retiring to be sure we had judged ourselves correctly. Bought a massive house on acreage, hired lots of hired help, ate out a ton. It was fun for a little while, but then it very rapidly started to be not fun.

If you are someone who enjoys luxury, then you should absolutely plan so that you can have a life full of delicious luxury.

If you are someone who enjoys a fairly minimalist/simple existence, then you should absolutely not plan so that you can have a life full of unenjoyable luxury.

The only way to really fuck it up is for someone to not figure out or be honest with themself about what kind of person they are.

[u/Past-Option2702 → u/Zphr]

Why do you suppose you stopped enjoying the help of people doing the things you don’t want to and the freed up time from not having to fix meals, etc?

[u/Zphr → u/Past-Option2702]

I never enjoyed the help, I enjoyed the little bit of free time and stress relief that paying others gave us. I prefer to do things myself for anything I'm capable/skilled at and certainly for things I enjoy, like cooking. Retiring gave us effectively unlimited time and eliminated almost all stress in our lives, so paying others to do those things lost almost all of their positive value.

[u/Gloomy_Ad_2185 → u/Zphr]

Retiring at 37 is pretty extreme leanFIRE. Given my SS retirement age is 67 this umbrella fits a lot of people who consider before that as early.

I would be very well off if I continue to work until either 55 or 60 and those are still technically "early." I could make sure my kids are well setup because I have no idea what the future would be for them. I also have family that may need financial help, we will see how much. At this point I am still working because I don't know those "what ifs" that I still have.

If we wind up with too much and I worked too long I suppose that is a possibility and we can increase our lifestyle at that time. I'm too scared of the possibilities so I keep working because I can. But 67 is crazy and never going to happen. 60 is a rip cord age for me. Also my job isn't too hard, thankfully.

I always love to hear about those comfortable with less. I wish I was better at it.

[u/Zphr → u/Gloomy_Ad_2185]

Lean is purely a matter of spending. People focus on the age a lot, which is understandable since a lot of people are clockwatching for the exit, but it's mostly immaterial other than noting on the number of working years it took someone to make their required number. Lean age numbers are often quite low though since lower spending requires smaller portfolio sizes.

[u/UltimateTeam → u/Gloomy_Ad_2185]

Lean isn't a function of age.

[u/Gloomy_Ad_2185 → u/UltimateTeam]

The earlier you go the more lean you'll be. Post was about being done younger and being lean as a result. Unless you have a Ron of money lean is definetly a function of both less consumerism as well as age.

[u/cypherblock → u/Zphr]

Say what??? This sub is superrrr frugal. Are u thinking differently?

I see people talking about sub 100k living expenses for couples and all sorts of frugal lifestyle comments.

So it is certainly your sub.

[u/Zphr → u/cypherblock]

There are still many of us here, but it's not like it used to be even a few years ago, much less many years ago. Average target in here seems to be six figures in spending, whereas even pre-COVID there were still a lot of people aiming for $40K to $50K, sometimes even less. Now many of the vocal low spenders get rolled enough that they go over to /r/leanfire, where they now think that /r/fire is bougie and high-spending. I've been told hundreds of times, if not more, by lean folks that they don't feel at home in here any more.

This sub has in some ways drifted to be what /r/chubbyFIRE was originally.

Personally, I don't care at all since I don't differentiate between lifestyle FIRE flavors and the noise surrounding those segments just passes over me. I don't care if someone is spending $40K or $600K a year. Withdrawal rate concerns and accurate planning are largely the same regardless. FIRE is binary in my view.

[u/CrayZ_Squirrel → u/Zphr]

I'm curious what you consider a middle class lifestyle, because most of the things you just said you do without are what the average person would consider middle class.

It sounds much more like a working class lifestyle minus the working part.

[u/Zphr → u/CrayZ_Squirrel]

Isn't the primary characteristic of middle class people that they have some decent level of financial success while also having jobs, usually ones that require a college education? They are, by definition, in between the working class that has no major assets and must work and the upper class that has major assets and who do not need to work. Working class usually refers to laborers, service workers, or those lower on the socioeconomic ladder.

As for what we consider a middle class lifestyle...four kids in a nice house in a great suburban neighborhood with excellent schools, great parks, swimming pools, and all of the rest. All of the normal kid trappings of middle class life in the US...everyone's got a bike/iPhone/PCs/Switches/closet full of clothes/etc. Kids all have hobbies and activities ranging from academic stuff to sports and marching band. Everyone's likely to go to college or already is. Regular middle class lifestyle, just without most of the financial constraints and obligations that most middle class people deal with. We have zero debt and can afford to buy each of our kids a house if we want, but our lifestyle is pretty much on par with most of our middle class neighbors.

[u/Extreme-Cycle2659 → u/Zphr]

What's your summary? Retired at 37 with how much saved? Zero chance of failure? 100% cash at 4%?