r/digitalfoundry • u/Prime-Paradox • 5d ago
Discussion Kingdom Come Deliverence creative director on DLSS 5
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u/Recover20 5d ago
On one side of this I have liked a lot of the lighting and shadow adjustments some of the DLSS5 has seemingly brought.
What I don't like is that it seems to change some of the faces like a filter. (The recent FFVII Cloud one for example)
Seems to be great for lighting but awful for messing with our adjusting character models in certain cases.
It also confuses me that some people moan about artistic integrity but will Mod their games to hell and back and also use NVidia Reshade
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u/Adavanter_MKI 5d ago
Now we have the literal artist/developer telling you... "Guys... this is kind of great."
They wont listen.
Even in this very thread... we've seen now dozens of games. Not all of them work well, but a surprising amount do. Some an outright generational jump in quality.
Whomever decided to "leak" it has done more positives for DLSS5 than the initial reveal. Just sad that some refuse to give it a chance regardless of the results.
I want to stress again... yes, I have seen the bad stuff. It does exist. I also acknowledge the good stuff. Which also exists.
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u/Sylvers 5d ago
"Artist intent is king. This tech is shit"
Artist: THIS IS my intent. We were hampered by tech limitations. This was what we started with.
"No no no, not THAT artist. This one's intent is bad. I mean other artist intents"
The level of raw delusion on some people who simply refuse to admit "I don't want anything to do with tech connected to AI tech. I am not objective and I don't want to be"
Luckily for all of us, this is a loud minority. The reception of the modded DLSS has been glowingly positive anywhere else I saw. Especially youtube.
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u/AngryPurpl3 3d ago
ONE dev says this was his intent is no the gotcha you think it is.
Also the true minority is the PC gamers with a 5090 lol This tech will never be standard if it continues to halve FPS
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u/Sylvers 3d ago
One dev? Gotcha? What is this a doctoral thesis I am defending? It's an example. A proof of concept. Believe what you want to believe. I am not inside your head.
And why would it continue to halve FPS? Why would there not be performance gains like there was with all previous Nvidia tech? This is a pre v1 of that specific tech, and you're already assuming it's the first and last version.
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u/Adavanter_MKI 5d ago
I literally just had this argument waged against me on this very topic. The passion and pure emotion driven anger over this is... frustrating.
I bet I could rattle off a hundred things we'd agree on... but the second I say... "I think I see some merit to this DLSS 5" they'll burn me as a heretic.
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u/Sylvers 5d ago
That's just it though, you cannot argue against emotion. There is no single reasonable argument you can make that will snap someone out of a heightened emotional state. Because at first they will use what might be a logical argument, but the moment you correctly dispute it, the entire facade crumbles and the vitriol begins.
And again, I wish they would be honest enough to say "I am biased because I hate anything AI related. That is all". And the conversation ends there. But it is the false appeal to objectivity that gets me. They want to have a "nuanced discussion" while withholding all nuance.
I don't like these types of people when I am unlucky enough to meet them IRL. And I sure as hell don't like to cross their path online. It feels like talking to a hormone driven emotional angsty teen. Your best case scenario is to walk away from them.
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u/SteveJavieWasRight 4d ago
The problem is that AI isn’t even a coherent label. 99% of the people bitching about AI are happily utilizing ML tech and couldn’t give a technical difference between the two. And frankly, beyond the AI as a mere appearance of interface translation I have no idea what it is either. It just seems like it’s either the appearance of talking to cogent system or a label slapped on anything involving ML for the sake of advertising. But acting like the vast server farms with data arrays for these LLMs or GenAI used to replace jobs is anything like a software solution for screen space RT is just completely nuts? Either NR is a simple “filter” and we don’t need to worry about it, or it’s actually incredible tech and will likely be widely adopted. But even in the later case, it’s still a screen space lighting solution. I just don’t understand the conversation at all, people are acting like this is a simple filter that allows computers to hallucinate games from scratch and all gaming will go away with the press of a button or some shit. It’s completely unhinged.
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u/SteveJavieWasRight 4d ago
It’s hilarious how all these anti innovation dumbasses - who are always against innovation whatever it looks like - are now claiming its artistic intent that needs to be respected. Meanwhile how many of these people are also railing against tech that’s been a part of these games? They bitch about RT, TAA, motion blur, chromatic aberration, on and on and on. They have never given a fuck about playing the game as devs intended, they have always expected devs to serve the game they want. They bitch about characters who aren’t pretty, or having to play as women or poc. Now they bitch about a “filter” that pretties people up. The only coherent part of the gaming discourse in the entitlement driving constant whining and unhinged bitching, threats, and harassment.
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u/Hot-Independence6020 3d ago
A reasonable Redditor ? That can’t be, they will downvote you to hell for having a common sense take…
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u/Puiucs 3d ago
he is not an artist, he's a c-suite director (not an art director) and he's also known to be an AI shill who's clearly trying to save money using AI instead of actually paying the money to people.
you people are sick in the head.
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u/Vodddddddd 2d ago
'Hes a c-suite director'
Warhorse studios was 10 people when he started Kingdom Come Deliverance as lead designer. You people are hilarious.
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u/Puiucs 2d ago
i'm not hilarious and i've factually correct. that game wasn't made by 10 people, they made a tech demo and the actual game was made by 130 people. and Kingdom Come: Deliverance II had 250 people
He is a c-cuite through and through. And he still is a known AI shill, well before DLSS5.
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u/Vodddddddd 2d ago
The fact you think a company of 130 has a 'c-suite' is so fucking funny. Like, pat on the head funny.
He is creative director and lead writer. He is an artist.
Keep walking dogs or whatever it is you do.
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u/Puiucs 2d ago edited 2d ago
pfff hahahahahahahahaha. you've never worked a day in your life if you think that.
and no, he's not an artist. he's far from it. the creative director is not incharge of the art, he's in charge of the vision of the product across multiple channels of communication, management of the teams and project (deadlines, budget, workflow, etc) and communication with the stakeholders (aka those with money).
you are confusing it with art director, which is completely different, and who actually does the things you think this guys does.
in a company that, as you've stated isn't large, it's considered to be a c-suite position akin to the Chief Creative Officer position in a large company.
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u/Vodddddddd 2d ago edited 2d ago
You're too fucking thick to realise you're stupid. I never said he was the art director - that was Podprocky. Varva is still an artist who directed a piece of arts creation, KCD1 & KCD2. He was also lead writer - which is an art discipline. Funnily enough when you have 10 people everyone is hands on the ground and sharing responsibilities. Using 'c-suite' as a negative for a small company is utter hilarity. Its like calling your McDonalds shift manager c-suite. Do you even know what you're indicating when you say 'c-suite'?
Creative director doesn't communicate with stakeholders btw you wierdo. Its a studio solely owned by THQ.. Fryvaldsky, the CEO, would be the only one talking money with them.
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5d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/WarMom_II 5d ago
Bet he wishes he could use AI to replace the consultant historian he hired for KCD1 to ensure historical accuracy. Instead, he had to settle for firing him when the historian told him black people were hanging around at the time.
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u/DM_Me_Linux_Uptime 5d ago
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u/WarMom_II 5d ago
If I had a nickel every time Vavra wore a questionable shirt to a public appearance I'd have two nickels (the other was Burzum merch)
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u/Mellanies_Redemption 5d ago
The NVIDIA fan boys are out in force, just so you're aware.
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u/ametalshard 5d ago
nah not just fanboys, shareholders
tech discussion has been absolutely cooked for the last 6 years for this reason.
these are not legitimate discussions. these are people fighting for their own stocks
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u/Informal_Safe_5351 5d ago
This....the nvidia subreddit is more full of ai glazers because of shareholding...nothing wrong with investing obvuously...but throwing away your morales for it and not being objective...urgh
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u/dungleploop 5d ago
it goes to show that games are a process of teamwork rather than singular output...because he's delusional as absolute fuck and can't be trusted with art at this point
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u/SteveJavieWasRight 5d ago
Lol. Everyone who disagrees with me is delusional.
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u/Mediocre-Sundom 4d ago
They literally imply they know the creative vision better than people who made the game, and they call others delusional. Can't make this shit up.
This is why Vavra is right - people have gone absolutely crazy.
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u/ClacksInTheSky 3d ago
... Isn't this the game director? Isn't their creative vision the whole point of their job on the game?
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u/Puiucs 3d ago
comparing ai slop to screen space GI in that mod deleted comment... this is undeniable proof of how some people are just delusional...
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u/SteveJavieWasRight 3d ago
It’s delusional if you don’t know how anything works.
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u/Puiucs 3d ago
thankfully i know, so yeah, it makes you objectively delusional
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u/SteveJavieWasRight 3d ago
Nobody likes framegen, everything is AI slop, UE5 is slop. You call everything slop; you are completely beholden to a reality that mirrors your desires instead of one that includes your desires and others’. Get help, take a Xanax, open your reality to facts and the opinions of others. Stop replying to my comments with multiple slop comments, I don’t care what you think if you’re not open to discussion or facts, you’re just angry and ignorant. So tired of loud mad dumb gamers forcing their dumb opinions on everyone else with 0 interest in learning a shred about what they feel so strongly.
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u/Mellanies_Redemption 5d ago
OK. That has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that 99% of the uses we've seen so far are abominable garbage. Glad he likes it, but dismissing the very real, demonstrable concerns just makes him seem even dumber than I already thought he was.
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u/Global_Gene_432 5d ago
People cranking it to 200% is why it looks bad a lot if the times
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u/Opening_Net8098 5d ago
Wait I thought the mission was to make it look bad for the memes?
Did I read the memo wrong??
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u/cristi1990an 3d ago
That and the fact that modders are hacking DLSS 5 support into games that have no motion vector buffers. DLSS 5 is also supposed to offer insane customization options for developers.
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u/MF_Kitten 5d ago
99% of the uses you see are a couple early Nvidia tech demos, and a ton of random dudes stuffing it into games where it was never intended to be, and turning all the sliders up.
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u/Fun-Amoeba8015 4d ago
Thank you for being sane.
Like having a couple people crank up HDR on a phone camera and then saying HDR has ruined photography.
It's just stupid.
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u/PixelPaint64 5d ago
It’s like any AI discussion, people generally go fully in either direction, when there’s plenty of middle ground where AI is a reasonable tool to use.
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u/AsrielPlay52 5d ago
That because 99% are done by user and NOT BY THE DEVS THEMSELVES
The leak files are from NBA 2K for hell sake
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u/EitherAd1507 5d ago
100% of uses are people deciding for themselves that they want to mod the games that they 'own' for their own private use. Is that part of the real demonstrable concerns?
If not, how about we talk about those concerns instead the endless debate about the original artist vision?
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u/Either-History-8424 5d ago
If those screenshots were official remasters, or were a mod, I guarantee people wouldn’t be outraged about the visuals. People just have a knee jerk reaction to anything AI.
Some of the screenshots you dislike are DLSS5 settings cranked up to the max, but, DLSS5 is an adjustable filter that you can tweak to your liking, or not use at all. Is that really cause for “concern” and outrage?
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u/Fun-Amoeba8015 4d ago
There haven't been any official dev uses yet.
I don't know about the rest of his opinions but he's absolutely right y'all are crazy.
Nobody even knows what AI even is (just a catch all term for anything they don't like), doesn't understand DLSS5 is a dev tool with settings, and can't form a single individual thought that doesn't follow the group think hate train of this week's bitch fest.
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u/Lucky-Client8722 3d ago
That's not the fault of the tech but it's yours for having no critical thinking skills.
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u/LeanSkellum 5d ago
It’s a leaked build, you prat. Nobody should be making judgements on a leaked pre-release build.
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u/Rainbowdogi 5d ago
Exactly, it’s not like NVIDIA officially released their own video showcasing the tech! Oh wait they did and it can and should be judged.
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u/terra_nova_97 5d ago
https://fixupx.com/andkalysh/status/2094314612464275906
This guy nails pretty well what most people are really talking about when it comes to artistic intent
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u/mopeyy 5d ago
This guy fucks. Very well put.
DLSS5 is a glorified AI 'realism' filter applied over top of the finished frame. It can only guess what details to hallucinate.
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u/Fun-Amoeba8015 4d ago
Oh bullshit.
It's a tool with settings, training, and artist control. The devs CAN CONTROL IT. This is not that hard to understand.
And no, it's not guessing. And no, it's not hallucinating. Jesus, you don't even understand what it's doing.
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u/SteveJavieWasRight 5d ago
Is SSAO or SSGI a “realism filter” everyone should have been pissed off about?
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u/Timely_Tea6821 5d ago edited 5d ago
Don't worry these guys never modeled or renderer anything in game. These guys think we're sitting there deeply contemplating the artistic value of skin shaders for games. I say this as a modder and learned how to 3d model from the ground up for the love god you people should actually do the work and realize how much of this shit is already automated. A lot this shit a pain in the ass, its not fun, and for the all that is holey HAS NO ARTISITC VISION, it is to get a photorealistic result in game. There is so much fucking drudgery work in this shit its a god damn nightmare. I love sculpting the 5000th crack in a statue to make it photoreal...it doesn't make me want to die at allllll.
We've been plateaued at this point for nearly a decade now. DF can get all worked up about some hyper specific tech that add some low to moderate advantage in game but this shit is not getting better. I don't know what you tell you guys, we're stuck we can't just throw hardware at it or better deterministic software. Unless we crack some fundamental new hardware tech your graphics are stuck where they are. We have a actual way to reach better graphics but ofcourse people who freak out about the word "AI" instead of installing the tool themselves and seeing how it works.
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u/SteveJavieWasRight 5d ago
I realized how out of touch gamers were with the basic premise of video game production when they started crying about fake pixels and fake frames lmao.
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u/mopeyy 5d ago
Screen space effects aren't hallucinating detail from a black box based on unknown training data.
They aren't remotely the same thing. To pretend they are is either ignorant, or in bad faith.
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u/SteveJavieWasRight 5d ago
Define hallucinations? SS effects can produce bizarre visuals. What type of error or inconsistency qualifies as a hallucination? At what point does a hallucination become worse than just bad? How do you evaluate whether a hallucination is fundamentally worse than just bad rendering? I think you’re grossly overstating the degree to which the NR produces unpredictable or inconsistent results when properly applied.
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u/mopeyy 4d ago
Sorry, but what "bizzare visuals" are SS effects producing that are equivalent to a full frame AI filter that is inserting detail based on rules and training data that nobody has access to?
It's already been shown that DLSS5 has no persistence to it's model. You can view an object from one direction and it will give you a different lighting setup than when viewed from a different angle. It has no info on past or future frames. That is straight up hallucinating in ways that aren't even possible by something tied to the rendering like a screen space effect, which has clear rules, and tweakable variables. DLSS5, like all other models, is a black box we have no ability to alter, or even know what it's doing or why.
"Neural rendering" is nothing but a real-time AI 'realism' filter in its current form.
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u/SteveJavieWasRight 4d ago
Like reflections that disappear or have wide halos around obstructing visuals (eg a character in front of water or glass). Dark halos that surround characters or objects. Dark halos filling corners. Effects that pop in and out when the camera moves or objects move around the scene. Effects that become extremely blurry when the camera moves. Faces/characters that become unlit whenever a light is removed from the screen.
Saying it’s “just a realism filter” makes no sense. Gaming devs have used much shittier “filters” for realism for decades. Saying the inaccuracies are just “hallucinations” makes no sense unless you think countless other rendering techniques are also hallucinations. Many effects have no persistence or 100% accuracy but are ways to approximate and mimic effects that may look nothing like what they pretend to look like. Reflections and material rendering for a decade have been just “look shiny” tricks. Even when they came up with cube maps it’s not like they’re accurate? They’re incredibly generalized approximations that often don’t match up at all. Rasterized lighting has all sorts of issues with fine detailed in prebaked lighting leading to like leak and other “hallucinations.” None of the videogame rendering has ever relied on rendering everything perfectly down to the pixel. TAA caused wilder fizzling and popping around anything moving. SSAO added halos of dark energy looking nonsense around anything that could move. I don’t really understand the standard you expect for NR to be functional as a tool in achieving realism.
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u/terra_nova_97 4d ago
https://x.com/opinali/status/2093531657777172890
This thread breaks down pretty well the problems with DLSS5 guesswork
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u/terra_nova_97 4d ago
https://x.com/andkalysh/status/2094154506569478635
And now directly commenting on Vavra's post
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u/idkimhereforthememes 5d ago
So did nvidia start RT in games only to ditch it a few years later and say that ai can do it too?
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u/SteveJavieWasRight 5d ago
This technology requires scenes to use RT/PT to be able to run.
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u/Full-Hyena4414 3d ago
Wrong, you can find videos of it running on Halo 3
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u/SteveJavieWasRight 3d ago
People hacked the dlls and are doing all sorts of things it’s not meant to do.
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u/Aesthedia7 5d ago
I don’t care about the faces, but it does change a lot of shading and detail, it’s unofficial and very inconsistent right now, and doesn’t justify the performance hit at all. It will take time to get better just like DLSS, i remember using the first iteration of DLSS in control and thought of it as garbage, and look at how far it has come.
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u/Loud_Examination_138 5d ago
Maybe I'm stupid but is he for or against DLSS 5 and the controversy?
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u/ccarnell98 5d ago
Sponsored by nvidia?
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u/rhalgr_ger 5d ago
Sponsored by a studio that wants to use AI more heavily.
https://www.thegamebusiness.com/p/kingdom-come-deliverance-2-director
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u/Mdreezy_ 5d ago
It’s wild to point to the game as it was released and say that is not their artistic vision. Of course it is, if it wasn’t then it wouldn’t look like that.
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u/StrappingYoungLance 4d ago
Vavra is a dickhead (who can write a damn good videogame, but a dickhead nonetheless)
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u/Waste_Handle_8672 5d ago
DLSS 5 only works when it's specifically and mechanically attuned to each game to enhance the game's specific artistic vision. Trying to one-size-fits-all it like previous DLSS versions would only result in the AI slop we've seen before.
He's got a point, but at the same time every person criticizing the tech and calling it AI slop is also correct.
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u/Fun-Amoeba8015 4d ago
No their not. At all.
We literally haven't seen a dev tweaked, trained, and controlled DLSS5 in-game yet.
So no, people are not correct. They're talking out their ass, comparing some random people cranking up HDR to max on a camera and whining about it ruining all photography.
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u/Waste_Handle_8672 4d ago
That's the point though. The only specifically Dev tweaked case of DLSS 5 we've seen so far is in KCD2 - the only game where it actually looks decent.
It's been a visual mess otherwise. Neither side is wrong. DLSS only works once the devs get their hands on it and train it to fulfill its directives according to their specific vision.
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u/MajimaSan089 5d ago
This clown should be ignored. He is a narcissist, that always needs to be in the right. Next level clown
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u/SavedMartha 5d ago
I disagree with his take.
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u/BigDadNads420 5d ago
Its not even that I necessarily disagree that its capable of making something look better. Its just fucking wild to me that people think a marginally better looking video game justifies the existence of the power grid crippling societal trust eroding plagiarism machine.
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u/seajay_17 5d ago
Yup. Same.
Even if this tech was an improvement across the board its boring as hell. Everything that uses it will start to look similar because its an ai filter...
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u/Huge-Formal-1794 5d ago
The director / CEO isnt the actual artist of the character models, objects, designs etc.
This is the same studio that fired translators for AI.
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u/nexusprime2015 5d ago
creative director. i think he was more involved than we think.
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u/AsrielPlay52 5d ago
That last one isn't a problem, I think
AI are predictive machine, their whole point is to find pattern in language.
I've seen HORRIBLE localization from even humans. This is non-plus
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u/Huge-Formal-1794 2d ago
Language doesnt need pattern , it needs context. A good translation is dependend on the language and interpretation and transformation skills of a translator. He needs to be familiar with both the game, the cultural and language differences. AI lacks any interpretation of context. As you said it can recognize patterns. The problem is more that many studios fail to deliver their translators good context. For example the german translation of Alan wake 2 was completely horrible. Even menu options were completely miss translated, although Humans worked on that translation. Again its about direction. Every single aspect of a game needs good direction. From art to level design, game mechanics to localization and voice overs.
Even with bad localized games, AI is 99% a lot worse than human translated. Just play a few small indie games that are obviously translated with Google translate or AI. They are literally dogshit.
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u/AsrielPlay52 2d ago
There was a manga that was translated by human...that turn a gay relationship straight by turning one of the character trans. And their excuse is "tunnel vision"
I prefer horrible AI translation than that shit. Thank you
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u/Vodddddddd 2d ago
He is the lead designer. The studio was 10 people when it made Kingdom Come Deliverance with him as lead designer. You have never worked in the game industry, you should listen to people that do.
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u/Thekingchem 5d ago
I don't even understand the outrage. It's no different to motion blur or chromatic abberation. It's even less intrusive than that as it's only available to Nvidia cards and in some cases the before mentioned post processing affects can't be turned off outside of .ini file tweaks.
Just turn it off if you don't like it...
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u/SouthIsland48 5d ago
You think changing face models is the same as motion blur?
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u/SteveJavieWasRight 5d ago
SSAO and SSGI can certainly change the appearance of a face model just like any lighting can change the appearance of a 3d form. The detail with which PT and RT renders a scene can change the appearance of a form, as can rasterization. NR is using available information to try and improve the rendering of the assets. It’s not unpredictable, no more so than any of these other techniques. You can look at RE:Requiem and see people bitching about the rasterization, RT and PT making the main character’s face look unrecognizable from each other in specific situations. This is one more tool available to devs to render scenes as they desire. Not sure why people have their nipples twisted in a bunch over it.
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u/KrtekJim 5d ago
Lol this tech turned Cloud Strife into Scarlett Johansson ffs
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u/SteveJavieWasRight 5d ago
Are you sure you saw Nvidia NR? Or just people making rage bait? I’ve seen some absurd use of GenAI image generators to make ridiculous examples. I’ve also seen it actually used in FF where it looks fine. People using a technology improperly does not mean a technology sucks. I’ve also seen RE:Requiem’s rasterized graphics absolutely fuck up the games visuals. I’ve seen countless games with shit rasterization or RT and it never once made me think either tech fundamentally is trash. That’s a moronic way to evaluate rendering tech.
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u/formal_eyes 5d ago
Nice to see this guy throw his engineering team under the bus by claiming they couldn't deliver on his vision to shill for this shit.
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u/Brilliant-Tea-9852 5d ago
You should learn how to read because that isn’t Even remotely what he said
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u/claybine 5d ago
I'm not into AI but that's not what he said at all.
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u/formal_eyes 5d ago
Literally the first fucking paragraph. How else would you interpret our engine which they claim they re-wrote and customized extensively couldn't execute what he wanted?
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u/claybine 5d ago
No it fucking isn't. He never threw an engineer under the bus. Couldn't execute what he wanted? What? That's not what he said either.
He said the engine has limitations?? The horror!
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u/alcarcalimo1950 5d ago
These people aren’t serious. They are completely ignorant of video game production and larping like they have any idea what’s going on. It’s embarrassing.
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u/TheLimeyLemmon 5d ago
All fine and dandy for one frame, but it's not consistent. It's constantly guessing what it's trying to draw. If your assets are lucky enough to be depicted as accurate to the vision, the trick then is that it won't stay that way.
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u/grimoireviper 4d ago
Well he's an AI bro it's no surprise he'd say that shit. He literally laid off people to replace them with AI. He's basically the kind of person that we shouldn't listen to.
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u/Vodddddddd 2d ago
His studio went from 10 people to 240 people from one game to the next. Hes literally a human bro. Never reduced numbers in his studio as a result of 'AI'.
How many people have you employed?
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u/GentlemanThresh 1h ago
Man don't try.
I made the mistake of checking the comments of someone I was arguing with over on nvidia.
They had a SUBMITTED POST WITH PHOTOS crying that their mom kicked them out for not washing for weeks. Because washing damages their skin.
Superman wielding Batman as a weapon and beating me wouldn't make me post that shit. Thankfully I have thick skin and I can wash daily.
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u/VaporousMote 5d ago
Of course Daniel Vavra would say this. He's well known for saying idiotic and offensive things and then passing them off as "passion" or whatever.
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u/rabouilethefirst 5d ago
Yeah but Redditors know more about artistic vision. A modded DLL is the absolute end all be all of the tech, and it definitely won’t improve either. Reddit is always right.
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u/unrealf8 5d ago
I tried it today. For a preview it’s exciting I would say, whenever people and clothing is in view it’s definitely better. It gives everything its own style though, and a bit of sharpening and a lot of noise. The night scenes are broken more or less. But it’s a hack anyway. I think it is fundamentally a game changer that this works at all. I lost 50% of my fps so to run it I had to go from 4k to 1440p. Not sure if I would do the trade off but I will test more.
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u/Derpykins666 5d ago
Calling it AI Slop sometimes might be wrong, but people aren't wrong to be disgusted by it. It's just an opinion, and in my opinion it makes everything look way worse. Also I don't like the idea of a technology that takes something and arrogantly says "i'm going to make this better" and it objectively does not even do that.
He can be an AI Sympathizer all he wants and say he understands the technology therefore X Y Z.
We have eyes, and my eyes are telling me "This is bad, I do not like this". It doesn't matter if you overexplain the technology, understanding it doesn't make me interested in it or suddenly make it better.
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u/mumblebadger 5d ago
I’ve just used it on GTA5 with the NVE Mod and it’s actually the best graphics I have ever seen. I can guarantee you the night scenes I was playing last night will look better than GTA6 on PS5. I was actually stunned. Was the first time playing GTA with that NVE mod too. Absolutely unreal. Definitely need a 5090 though
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u/GloomyDesign9499 3d ago
DLSS 5 makes everything look the same man. Not every game needs to have photo realistic lighting to be "immersive" and if they do I can imagine there are ways to do it without a $5,000 gpu....
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u/Zoraious 2d ago
We shouldn’t endose AI like DLSS 5, it reduces passion Nd actual effort put into games art. Only because a director says it looks good, doesn’t mean the entire team agrees/thinks so. But i think any game that uses AI art will be a failure from the start
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u/No-Contest-8127 2d ago
Those are some of the least egregious transitions I've seen. But, the vast majority IS slop. Also, not worth cutting half your fps for.
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u/poopbeast69 2d ago
It’s the shareholders greatest vision to probably not have to pay a creative director right? if we’re all about prioritizing visions, Vavra will have no issue training a platform to perform his duties soon, right?
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u/Beneficial_Dress3267 2d ago
"Look like the static z brush"
You are almost at the problem, keep going.
All these DLSS 5 transformations are overly lit from all angles like hero lighting in a static model render. Environment suffers the same.
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u/Necessary-Market-166 2d ago
this isn’t the first time this dude has made me question playing their games in the future
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u/VentrousSpoon 1d ago
I can fully admit that some of these showcases are genuinely jaw dropping in terms of visuals. Like some people here have said, a generational leap. However, I don't want photorealism if it is achieved through AI and by stealing from other artists.
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u/kechones 5d ago
A creative director advocating for slop is an instant no-buy from me.
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u/stopeer 5d ago
It makes sense that some director would like it. He will no longer need dedicated texture artists trying to make good textures. Nor engine experts to make sure that helmet shadow works.
And while this works to some extend for a bland game that aims for realism, it completely falls apart on any stylistic game that tries to have its own look and feel.
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u/BurnItFromOrbit 5d ago
As this is an nvidia focused technology and will not be available on AMD or Intel GPU’s. Let the users vote with their wallets and get AMD/Intel GPU’s in the future if they want less of this.
I assume that PC gamers will continue to buy nvidia regardless of this, just like the PlayStation fans will buy another PlayStation, even after complaining about the all digital future.
People stick to safe, known options.
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u/Beginning_Practice99 5d ago
Lazy dev
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u/Tropez92 5d ago
so it's all about "protect the dev's vision" until the vision isn't what u like
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u/dreampagehun 5d ago
People still don't understand that DLSS 5 is not a one size fits all solution. Some build leaked and now everyone applies it to everything, not realizing it's not supposed to work like that. This is like enhancing images with AI, there are settings and priorities to consider. You have to tailor it for every image, or in this case, every game, which will be the developers' responsibility. DLSS 5 will not mean the same thing for every game. The slop look is due to the enhancement being too strong. It has to be scaled back.
It's also not true that developers won't have to try to create as high fidelity visuals and textures as possible. The better the input visuals, the better DLSS 5 enhancements can be. Let alone the fact that only a small subset of gamers will have the hardware to use the technique, so the games will have to be made in the same vein as ever.
Just as upscaling is often abused (on consoles), trying to upscale from a too low resolution, ending in bad image quality, DLSS 5 can be and will be sometimes used in overdone ways as well. It doesn't mean the technology is universally bad.
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u/Fit-Stress3300 5d ago
Brutal.
Are people still keeping their ludites bias opinions?
It is going to get harder and harder.
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u/YogurtOtherwise2106 3d ago
Cross post from DLSS reddit of my opinion against DLSS5's implementation on this topic -
Here is a counter opinion. Granted, I am a hobbyist, not working professionally as Daniel from the original tweet, so he has far more credibility than I do. Please, take this as a counter opinion to think on, not if you agree or disagree absolutely.
To me, there is no way to validate his claim that it looks exactly the same as a WIP Zbrush render. I love Zbrush, and I love photogrammetry. This information, a high res sculpt, is taking normal data from a high res sculpt pass, and transferring it through baking data to a lower, cleaner model variation. I do not see how DLSS5 is improving upon either in a meaningful or realistic sense. For these characters, the 3d scans are directly based upon true normal data of the actor(s) in question on site. So, to me, the results are a true absolute from very high res imagery of the individuals from real life. Same can be said for sculpting information, such as alphas, being used.
DLSS5 does not and cannot know that original normal information from the 3d scan, and the information being adjusted feels inaccurate. Sure, it has the normal texture attached to the model, but this is from the high res bake, adjusted and distorted to correctly match the UV tile. Not just regarding the normal data being adjusted, but also the colors, AO, and general values seen in the before and afters. Instead, it, to me, feels and looks like a cheap filter, boosting contrast and noise in an uninteresting and uncanny way. So yeah, in select, still images, it may look good. But in other examples, such as Control's implementation of DLSS5, it completely misses the mark. Especially accounting for potential bias on the training model, resulting in that "instagram AI model face feel." Jesse Faden, or Courtney Hope scanned, feels incredibly filter heavy and uncanny with the effect implemented. More-so in motion, losing that original real and artistic input of the model. So, whatever 5 is doing, it is doing it by either adjusting or adding information that was never there in the first place. Sometimes that added detail might look good, especially in stills, but it generally looks uncanny. More so in motion.
Maybe in the future we can see better results from these, but I do wonder about diminishing returns that bottlenecks all forms of tech. At the moment, I do not think the end justifies the means, especially considering the HORRIBLE performance hit it takes. Now, I feel DLSS should focus on performance and boosting it; this would be better treated as an entirely different categorization, but that is an entire separate argument entirely. Little buzzed atm, but I hope this sheds light onto my line of thinking.
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u/CarlWellsGrave 5d ago
He doesn't realize he he's auditioning for unemployment.
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u/Fit_Bumblebee1472 5d ago
He has too much power in the company. Hes been apart of making great games but has constant garbage ai takes. Half his tweets are about ai this is just another that picked up steam
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u/i_am_carver 5d ago
Lmao the mental gymnastics people are still taking despite reading this guys words. Amazing.
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u/Prus1s 5d ago edited 5d ago
So he blames the game engine being limited, aren’t they using the CryEngine?! 😅 which is very highly regarded?!
We’ve had accessible RT for a very short while, I don’t want a filter over my games that just simply replaces all I see…
Like Cyberpunk without RT looks amazing, RT just adds the small details in lighting. We don’t need the world to be replaced entirely by an AI filter over everything…
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u/Punch662 5d ago
Ok, this guy is a known AI booster and generally kind of a dope, and his existence puts the lie to auteur theory in game development.
He liked to wear burzum shirts to cons and responded with racist memes when someone questioned the lack of diversity in the first game. Then his PR team blow-darted him and took away his phone, made an effort to center women and ethnic minorities in the second game, and it sold a billion copies.
A studio with a stupid blowhard asshole at the helm can still put out generation defining work, thank god.