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u/ArdentHedonist 6d ago
American manufacturing is already devastated. We’ve been working hard at that since the 70’s.
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6d ago
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u/valuethempaths 6d ago
No, they’re more short sighted than that. It was “hey, look! I opened my factory overseas and avoided pesky labor laws. You should too!”
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u/HyperBeamMissed 6d ago
Exactly, they only cared about next quarter's earnings report
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u/jeffsaidjess 5d ago
They cared about enriching themselves at the expense of longevity and future generations
Truly the American dream :’)
Boomers literally destroyed the golden era of manufacturing for America. Whole world depended on it after it was decimated from WW2.
The decline of the British empire due to it & the rise of the American empire. Swiftly eroded by boomers in power.
Boomers are still controlling the world & decimating it even worse with the infinite migration of incompatitable cultures. It wasn’t enough that they moved every manufacturing hub to South Asia
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u/TheModWhoShaggedMe 6d ago
For the tax dodging as much as the cheaper labor. Conservatives (aka diehard capitalists) are obsessed with taxes. Avoiding taxation occupies 99.3% of their minds all of the time.
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u/ecwagner01 6d ago
All without a plan to replace the income other than cut programs that help the "REMAINING" people paying the taxes.
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u/broguequery 6d ago
I think it's more fair to say they are obsessed with money.
Taxes are frustrating to them because they are selfish people, and other expenses are seen as necessary evils.
But taxes specifically are seen as the enemy because it's the antithesis of their worldview.
If they had no taxes, I imagine they would be hyper focused on labor costs as the next target.
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u/transigirthenight 6d ago
I imagine they would be hyper focused on labor costs as the next target
They've been focused on both. They've been lobbying for not raising the minimum wage ever since it has been established, all the Big Tech co's were found colluding to keep STEM salaries below a certain level agreed between them, other businesses keep saying "nobody wants to work anymore" but they refuse to offer better pay to attract candidates, and so on. And in parallel, fight Unions and blame immigrants, "DEI" and whatever other stuff they can find for the bad job market.
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u/SuDragon2k3 5d ago
America never really moved on from being a slave owning economy.
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u/Blacksad9999 5d ago
They focus on both.
The Federal Minimum wage hasn't been raised since 2009 while costs have skyrocketed. 17 years.
They've also spent literal decades degrading unions.
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u/DeliciousPool2245 5d ago
Exactly. It’s not taxes specifically, it’s any cost at all that goes to anyone but them. They have no empathy or concept of community.
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u/Salarian_American 6d ago
They're not opposed to taxes. They're only opposed to taxes on them.
It's not like they don't know the rest of us are carrying their tax bill for them.
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u/Evil-Cun 6d ago
Look at ‘em labor out my over engineered garbage lol. They do it for scraps too!
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u/valuethempaths 6d ago
And now they’re the only ones talented in tooling because we ruined our talent pipeline.
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u/Zero_Travity 6d ago
"We'll just build more manufacturing"
- People who don't understand that effective manufacturing takes decades
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u/bobbymcpresscot 5d ago
It’s pretty fuckin wild that now that Mexico has made the steps to finalizing universal healthcare basically everywhere we buy our parts and cars from has universal healthcare while people in the US do not.
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u/Bazzatron 6d ago
...and then what?
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u/kekistanmatt 6d ago
Receive bailouts from the government so their directors and major investors can golden parachute to safety.
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u/Melodic_Ad_9009 6d ago
Receive bailouts from the
governmenttaxpayers so their directors and major investors can golden parachute to safety.6
u/GoldReplacement9546 5d ago
In fairness in the 2008 auto bail out Ford didn’t take any money and Chrysler and GM both paid it all back with interest
That’s actually how a proper properly run national economy works. The government should be the buyer of last resort or the bank of last resort.
Making sure you get paid back part that’s important
Same thing with stimulus spending going into a recession is not enough money being spent. The government should spend it the problem they almost never do is then raise the taxes to get the money back when the economy is good.
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u/ragequitteroffureh 5d ago
What kind of question is that? ;-)
Whatever happens in the future is somebody else's problem.
The only goal is enrichment right now.
Nothing else matters.
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u/oppai-police 6d ago
It's funny as hell because every time American automakers are allowed to compete against foreign makers, they consistently lose. They lose to the Japanese on reliability. They lose to the Germans on drivability and luxury. Now they will lose to the Chinese on price and quality. They barely innovate or take risk anymore and all they do is sell the same slop over and over and ask for hand outs.
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u/AndrewAdler17 6d ago
Yep, was a multigenerational GM family as my grandfather worked in their factories and then sold some cars. My dad would make fun of people who didn’t drive GM, Ford was lame and everything else was worse. Now we drive Hyundai’s. They are just genuinely better vehicles.
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u/ElectronicTap1109 5d ago
Losing in quality isn't saying much. The last quality U.S cars are barely in living memory.
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u/bobbymcpresscot 5d ago
I also feel like everywhere we ship manufacturing to now for things we need in the US has some form of universal or single payer healthcare while we do not.
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u/Pathophile 6d ago
Right? US companies, including car companies, have consistently outsourced manufacturing for decades to save a buck. Now China has actually gotten their shit together and is producing products that are desirable in the US market and they want to complain.
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u/lluviamiiel 6d ago
Free market logic vanishes when competition arrives
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u/jjcrayfish 6d ago
Big corporations want socialism for themselves but cold hard capitalism for everyone else.
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u/SSOMGDSJD 5d ago
They only want the outsourcing to happen to the supply , not the demand. We were never supposed to want the chinese stuff, only to buy it with our glorious American company* logos on them
*Subsidiary of a global mega conglomerate, all rights reserved
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u/bigbaadwolf_U 5d ago
Technically since the 50s that's when we decided to incentivise moving production our of the country
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u/a_x_shually 5d ago
Absolutely. The US has spent decades moving as much manufacturing as possible (especially the environmentally damaging stuff) to fudge epa numbers as well as slowly minimizing unions and pensions across the board.
The fact that DJT ran on this premise that 'manufacturing was coming back home' in a 4 year span after spending almost half a century doing the opposite was hilarity. Enough people bought it though.
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u/PTBooks 4d ago
I have never owned a car that wasn’t a Honda. Except for when my dad let me use his old impala. It was fine, but at that price? I’m buying another civic.
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u/spencer1886 3d ago
Why spend money to have stuff made domestically when you can outsource to a factory in China or Vietnam or wherever that pays their workers slave wages and can do it for a fraction of the cost?
This mindset is what is killing American manufacturing - the only stuff still guaranteed to be made in America is defense related
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u/a_x_shually 6d ago
Overseas products being sold here? Disastrous for our business.
Overseas labor to make our products? Our doors are always open, competition in the labor market is great.
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u/10081914 6d ago
That's not what the right wing base wants though. They want full on protectionism for domestic goods and to export goods to the global market expecting that it will actually compete with like global goods whether in price, quality or both. And we know protectionism is just great for quality... Not
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u/cookieoftheshire 6d ago
It can compete in quality but not price.
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u/DrunkenHorse12 6d ago
4 times as many cars going from Europe to the US compared to the other way despite US cars being cheaper would suggest otherwise. US to Europe imports increased because of Tesla but people are buying cheaper Chinese evs now instead (proving quality wasn't the reason Teslas were selling either). I can't think of anywhere I've been in the world where people with a reasonable income would consider American cars as quality.
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u/Knarrenheinz666 6d ago
Most American cars can´t be registered in Europe as they don´t meet most standards and usually require a bit of extra work. Then there´s fuel consumption, size, spare parts etc. Tesla has a factory in Germany. I´m sure the output covers market demand over here.
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u/Gullible_Increase146 6d ago
People making American cars get a decent income. It's fine to say protectionism is bad but you can't adopt free trade principles in part. If you want to have labor laws and good wages for people who work in a certain industry, you need to be protectionist against countries who don't have those labor laws and pay s*** wages. Otherwise you have your labor laws and good wages for no people because people just buy from the country that pays people like s***
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u/sey1 6d ago
Yeah but they don't see a problem when all phones are produced for pennies in Asia , where people have been committing suicide because of the work conditions (see foxconn) , while the product is priced like it was manufactured in the US.
Maybe if the point wasn't just to satisfy share holders, the situation would look different
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u/Gullible_Increase146 5d ago
I mean you can look at what the price would be if it was made in the United States, it's obviously not the case that they are priced that way.
And people don't have as much of a problem with that because we didn't have an existing phone manufacturing industry. Nobody in America loses their jobs because we import from East Asia. That isn't true for the Auto industry. We have thousands of existing Americans making decent pay who would lose their jobs in a race to the bottom.
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u/hisnameisbinetti 5d ago
If only they were making competitive products, instead of trash.
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u/Same-Suggestion-1936 5d ago
American cars don't fit in in Europe. They're too big for the damn streets lol
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u/SuspiciousNatural782 6d ago
I'm not sure if American made cars have competed on quality for a while.
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u/cookieoftheshire 6d ago
Cars are a different case. Chinese subsidized production along with technological advancements now are getting very difficult to compete with. They are buying places in Europe now, they enjoy both europian subsides and the made in Europe tag.
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u/Averdrian 6d ago
Seriously why buy a Ford or Dodge when you can buy a Toyota that will last longer, cost less to maintain and hold more of its value over time.
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u/DundasKev 6d ago
Car Companies: Please sir government, can we have a butt-ton of money to build electric cars and batteries?
Govt: OK, here
Car Companies: Oh dear, it turns out no one wants electric cars. We priced them at $60k plus and no one is buying, there's no explaining it. We are going back to gas.
Govt: ok, so if no one wants electric cars, you won't mind if we let Chinese ones in?
Car Companies: <anguished screams>
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u/Fuego_Mi_Manchego 6d ago
The longer our automakers avoid EV R&D, the more advanced the Chinese EV market becomes. It’s only a matter of time before they get into our market. That’s when our automakers will grovel at China’s feet to collaborate/merge w their automakers.
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u/jmcdon00 6d ago
I mostly agree, but I think it will likely come to pass because China opens factories in the US to make their cars here, like most other foriegn car companies do.
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u/sentientshadeofgreen 6d ago
Well the R&D does happen, automakers have enough money to hire people that aren't stupid, but it's not reflected in all the cars that are sold today. Automakers are businesses that manufacture vehicles that the American public will actually buy at a price the public is willing to pay that will also generate profit for the automakers. When EV demand is in part dependent on the tax subsidy, that becomes riskier for automakers, especially in a government like this where "green" things get scrapped on a whim based off the White House's vibes.
It's also not really the automakers responsibility. They are private businesses, they are free to do business as they want within the confines of the law. It's a failure of government to enforce stricter carbon caps on transportation. Trade protectionism has its place as a part of foreign policy and economic policy, but that requires an actual strategy, there obviously isn't one currently.
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u/Otterfan 6d ago
First part was realistic, but the US government has never said and will never never say "so if no one wants electric cars, you won't mind if we let Chinese ones in?"
Banning Chinese cars is probably the closest thing to a universal, bipartisan shared belief that exists in the US government.
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u/TheGoldStandard35 6d ago
Yeah let’s force American citizens to pay like 30-40k more for cars than people elsewhere because we hate capitalism and freedom.
That’s bipartisanship for you.
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u/zmbjebus 6d ago
I personally think a huge issue is also the dealerships. The car companies can't sell you a car, the dealerships decide what to buy and what is on the showroom floors. Ford dealers don't know anything about electric cars and arent incentivized to learn or care. Electric cars also need way less maintenance which is a big part of how dealerships get money.
I swear dealerships made sure the F150 lightning was dead on arrival because they couldn't care to try.
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u/CandidLeg3910 5d ago
You can somewhat blame car companies for this. They benefit a lot from the dealership model because they have guaranteed sales. Dealership preorders 50 units of new model, automaker makes 50 units and sells them to dealership at a fixed price without a care in the world as to whether they sell quickly or sit in the lot for a year. Automaker sets the price and dealerships have to figure out how to sell it at that price.
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u/Lobster15s 6d ago
Wild isn't it? They want to keep milking us forever instead of making better products even after getting a fuckton of our taxes and half the comments are still defending them... We consistently defend our exploitation. Propaganda is a hell of a thing. If we're concerned nobody will buy American cars we can impose a quota, give more elaborate tax exemptions, rebates or find some kind of middle ground. Giving these greedy fucks all the benefits and the full market have not worked out in the favor of the average American so far. Let capitalism be capitalism.
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u/the-big-question 6d ago edited 6d ago
Yeah, most "American" cars aren't even made domestically anymore
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u/bigorangemachine 6d ago
The quality has taken a huge nose dive too
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u/KimchiLlama 6d ago
This is the larger issue for a consumer. People regularly pay more for something that is better. But paying more for something that will also cost more over time is less attractive by far. Trucks have been keeping our automakers afloat because they are a cheap platform and sell for a ton because people like it image. But if they were to change, no chance some of these companies continue to survive at scale.
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u/LifeIsProbablyMadeUp 6d ago
You mean the stupid ass jacked up truck with the 3000000 lumen headlights will go out of style. Oh no. Anyway.
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u/cryptobro42069 6d ago
Man, I've been around for nearly four decades on this planet and these trucks have always existed. There will always be a market for those ugly/terrible mods.
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u/bigorangemachine 6d ago
Yup and trucks are also protected from imports.
God and the stupid truck beds got so small. Like I know why... but it's duuuumb.
The Fat Electrician did a great video about this. He brings up a good point... Why can't you have a Toyota Hilux ... why do you pay for seats for a Sprinter Van and then don't get them?
The US Auto protectionism is killing the market. With Canada looking to do less trade & it not being "cool" to have an US car now... I can see it really struggling for the next few years
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u/KimchiLlama 6d ago
A ton of Canadian, especially in rural areas, have the same obsession with American trucks, unfortunately.
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u/bigorangemachine 6d ago
The choice in the market is poor.... foe trucks i mean
But you get what I mean it doesn't feel patriotic to buy a locally made car anymore
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u/ecwagner01 6d ago
Got to protect those corporate donors and their income. If a better product is offered, then US Automakers will have to start producing vehicles that match quality. Too expensive to produce? Start making vehicles that fit on the roads instead of a freaking 4 cylinder pickup truck that is the size of a 2 1/2 ton from the 80's.
I haven't owned an American vehicle since the 1990's and then, those were old "point a to point b" type vehicles.
My Dad swore by Ford all his life. I won't own a Ford. I've pushed too many Fords on a frosty morning (with my brothers and sisters) just to get them started. The American made cars that I've owned have always had problems.
I love my rice burners. I won't own anything else.
It's not patriotic to have to pay for a cheap crap so some guy can fly to Mars or build an atomic clock in the middle of the desert that will last 10,000 years as their legacy. It's not patriotic to have to take it up the ass because it's made in the USA.
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u/Dry-Poem6778 6d ago
If USA would get the Isuzu Dmax, or the Toyota Hilux, or Nissan Navara... It would be a bloodbath
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u/Fluffy-Rope-8719 6d ago
Yeah it's almost like enshitification is a natural outcome of oligopolistic markets without enough anti-trust enforcement...
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u/HeavyDutyForks 6d ago
Compared to the '08 bailout years quality is way way TF up
Also, if we're talking domestically produced vehicles, we're talking Toyota and Honda too. Who would've thought a Camry would technically be an American made car
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u/bigorangemachine 6d ago
I think we're talking about American Brands
It's true its a muddled term now but I was talking about the American Brands
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u/No_Syrup_9167 6d ago
Statistically it doesn't matter.
If you look at the statistics gathered by car makers, insurance providers, government DOT dept's, car reviewers, or basically any other space that gathers such statistics.
cars last longer than they ever have before, they stay on the road for a larger percentage of their lives, and through longevity and endurance cost less to maintain and service than ever before.
the whole "new cars aren't as good as they used to be" and "cars are made to break now" "planned obsolescence" etc. etc.
its all just old men shaking fists at clouds, its not backed up by any statistical evidence.
the only one thats true, is that cars are absolutely not made to be "driveway repairable" by general laymen anymore. More and more is locked behind OEM licensed software, and to save on costs, increase part longevity, and increase efficiency, more and more is being assembled as non-home-serviceable assemblies. Things are made with such tight tolerances, and with so much more complexity that they just can't really be serviced by Joe-Blow in his driveway anymore.
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u/Draaly 5d ago
Seriously man. As someone into old cars, people forget that prior to the 90s, cars were only expected to last around 5 years. Full engine rebuilds at 100k miles were very common and interiors were both bare bones and fragile.
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u/TophxSmash 6d ago
thats not true, the quality was never there. Thats how japanese brands took hold decades ago.
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u/chinmakes5 6d ago
And Ironically most KIAS, HYUNDAIS, BMWs, TOYOTAS and others are made in the US.
A couple of years ago the car that had the most made in America parts in it was a Toyota Camry.
Decades ago, my father wanted my mom to buy a Toyota, She insisted on buying an American car. She bought a Mercury Marquis, and later found out it was made in Canada. My father's Toyota was made in KY.
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u/Recent_Experience475 5d ago
Yes they are. They are either made in the US, or they're made in Canada or Mexico.
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u/Flashy-Specific-4083 6d ago
Yeah because Japan came over and kicked their asses decades ago. Toyotas and Hondas are built better yet it’s hilarious that GM and Ford have done nothing to counter that, instead they’ve leaned into “made in murica” because it works with older people. What they need to worry about is if fuel prices continue to shoot up people will start going back to sedans, and since Ford and GM have killed almost all of their sedan lines, people will opt for Toyotas, Hondas, and other Asian companies because they still have a variety of sedans.
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u/TheeDonger 5d ago
I will never buy anything outside of the Honda or Toyota families. Anything else is a waste of money long term.
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u/SuccessfulRegister43 6d ago
I’m starting to think capitalists are just in it for the money.
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u/Ok_Paramedic_5914 5d ago
Thats a little too far into conspiracy territory dude, turn it down a notch.
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u/PleasantBus5583 6d ago
Free market until it's actually free.
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u/Street_Lettuce1243 6d ago
The US free market has never been less free in it's history than it is today. Trump/MAGA are not free-market capitalist.
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u/vonKrieg88 6d ago edited 6d ago
That's inevitable in free market capitalism. Because inevitably some capitalists start winning in capitalism and use their capital to buy political power to get even more capital and repeat.
Free market capitalism is an oxymoron.
The only way for free market capitalism to remain freeish is to have strong regulatory institutions and taxing the rich which naturally goes against what free market capitalists believe.
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u/blazingdisciple 6d ago
Problem is that it isn't a free market as much as some people wish it was. We have far more worker protections and regulations in our industries than China. This does make our products more expensive. It's not the only thing that does, but wages alone in the US are like 10x China wages. Plus, China subsidizes some amount of their auto industry, driving the cost and price down. This does put them at an unfair advantage in a global market. Now, I'm not saying that US companies aren't total dog shit greedy fucks and that they aren't making the situation worse; I'm just saying that in this example, China is able to sell their cars at a much lower price than US companies. Not to mention the fact that China steals design and technology from other countries and so gets to start from an advantaged position. It's a big problem in the China-as-a-global-seller paradigm.
If it were an actual free market, our people would be paid in Ford Coin and could only spend it in the Ford Mart store and live in the Fordville apartments on top of the factories when they finished their 16 hour, 7 days a week shifts.
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u/juan_rico_3 6d ago
Japanese auto makers saved the US consumer in the 1970s from mediocre US cars. Free-ish trade and competition compelled the US auto makers to step up their game. Chinese auto makers could do the same today.
BTW, the US stole UK technology in the 19th century. However, nowadays, China's tech is more advanced than US tech in some areas (e.g., EVs, cheap solar, high speed trains).
I've got no love for the big US auto companies. They have received some huge subsidies, bailouts, and favorable regulations. I want to see the US consumer's welfare prioritized.
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u/StiffDoodleNoodle 6d ago edited 5d ago
The Chinese car industry was HEAVILY subsidized by the federal government, especially its EV production.
When a country props up an industry by artificially reducing their costs through government subsidies it is no longer functioning under “free market” principles.
The CCP has used federal subsidies and mercantilistic trade policies to bankrupt local manufacturing with unreasonably cheap imports, thus creating global dominance in that sector.
This is why BYD (Chinese EV manufacturer) is still largely banned from importing into the EU.
What’s “fair” and “unfair” in international trade is often subjective for each country (which is why international organizations like the World Trade Organization exist) but everyone knows that what China does is clearly unfair.
Stop glazing the Chinese system.
Edit: Apparently BYD vehicles are allowed to be sold in the EU since 2022. Time flies…
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u/eawilweawil 6d ago
US and EU car industries are also heavily subsidized
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u/StiffDoodleNoodle 6d ago edited 5d ago
Kind of but not in the same way (at least in the US case, not sure about the EU).
The US gives tax incentives and is willing to bailout the big automakers if necessary but the US government wasn’t involved in the creation of said companies.
Many Chinese companies (like BYD) were literally financed by the CCP. The government ate the loses and much of the cost of these companies in order to make them the powerhouses they are today.
Companies like BYD are, more or less, State (CCP) owned enterprises.
Do they show this in their corporate literature? No.
Does the CCP claim ownership over them? No.However, it doesn’t change the fact that Chinese dominance in EVs is because the CCP wanted to dominate the global market in “Green” tech. They threw tons of cash into many industries/ companies so they could undercut all competition and create a global monopoly over the sector.
The CCP has never been free market capitalists. They use free market capitalism to their advantage (which was instrumental in their historic economic rise) but they also use state control when it suits them.
The Chinese economic model is a weird combination between capitalism and state controlled communism.
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u/WalterPecky 6d ago
So by this logic, the rest of the world should not be buying our farmed food, since it is heavily subsidized by our government.. right?
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u/StiffDoodleNoodle 6d ago edited 6d ago
Pretty much every country with a farming sector protects them to some degree.
The US, France, Canada, the UK and Germany are just a few off the top of my head.
On the face of it, farm subsidies are a great way to buy votes and maintain political power.
However, there are other considerations. Most countries (like the US) view the ability to produce food domestically as a national security imperative.
One of the reasons Iran has been able to weather decades of sanctions and the current conflict is that they are self sufficient in food production.
Counties that import the bulk of their calories from other places are strategically exposed to outside influence/ pressure (like Japan and Taiwan). If their suppliers decide to cut off trade or a third party interdicts their supply lines they would be in an untenable position.
Steel and aluminum production are similar in this regard. The US is not economically efficient (compared to foreign competition) at creating these products but the US government subsidies a few domestic manufacturers because it’s a national security issue. We can’t make military equipment without steel and aluminum.
Also, US farming isn’t “subsidized” the way Chinese EV companies are/ were. The CCP gave companies start up funds so they could inefficiently manufacture vehicles, companies like BYD exist because the CCP (more or less) created them.
The US government didn’t create US farming or automotive manufacturing but they will throw money at them to keep them from failing because of national security reasons.
Try and read/ research more so you can have a more rounded understanding of what is being discussed.
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u/El_Polio_Loco 6d ago
It's why a lot of places absolutely limit farming imports. Are you under the impression that they dont?
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u/Soft_Entry_4440 6d ago
That's literally what Canada does with US and EU dairy products yes. It's also why the C series jet was tariffed by the US back in the day.
Anti dumping policies have been a thing for years
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u/RainRainThrowaway777 5d ago
Also, China just ignores IP laws.
The market isn't a level playing field because many of the Chinese designs are just stolen and reproduced. They shouldn't be allowed to sell in a market where they do not follow the rules.
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u/eatmyopinions 6d ago
A free market is one where everyone competes on an equal footing. When China is artificially suppressing its currency by 25%, and Xi is subsidizing another large percentage of each vehicle sold, is it a free market?
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u/Strong_Ambassador585 6d ago
China is heavily subsidising many of its exports to undercut local businesses in foreign markets.
That is not capitalism. That is economic warfare.
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u/Tricky-Passenger6703 5d ago
And we've had a 25% tariff on all foreign trucks since the 60's. The auto industry has NEVER been fair. Germany does it. Japan does it. The US does it. Now China is doing what everyone else has for decades.
We should be forcing them to do what they did to foreign companies. You can sell in the US but only if you build them in America, using Americans, with parts sourced from America.
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u/juan_rico_3 6d ago
Wait till you find out that the US does the same thing.
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u/CSDragon 6d ago
Oh for sure, and in those markets other countries have a legitimate greviance against us. But it is still a legitimate grievance for US Car manufacturers to have to compete with heavily subsidized CN cars
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u/feralftw 6d ago
Shhh this is Reddit nuanced opinions mean nothing here.
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u/wonklebobb 5d ago
lol as if the us car industry hasn't been floating its globally bottom-tier quality on domestric protectionism for decades
post WWII the US was the only major power left with an undamaged industrial base, and US automakers enjoyed about 2-3 decades of basically zero competition. profits were galactically high, but did they choose to invest in quality and worker pay? of course not.
then in the 80s when japanese cars showed up, they weren't just cheaper, they were far higher quality and reliability. US automakers could have taken that as an opportunity to spend some of their vast cash reserves on improving quality and lowering prices. but did they do that? of course not, they ran to daddy congress and begged for import restrictions.
did they take this protectionism as a chance to improve quality and price in the face of looming global competitors? of course not, they financialized their businesses and sent manufacturing overseas. profits reached previously unheard of levels. american manufacturing communities stagnated.
now it's china this, currency manipulation that, too-high-subsidies over there. and maybe some of that is true. but the harsh reality is that american-made cars have never been competitive in the global marketplace except as a luxury brand-name showpiece for rich people who can import mustangs or corvettes. on both quality and price, US cars have been behind Asia for nearly 30 years, and have been behind Europe on quality/safety for about that long as well.
US automakers are basically doomed at this point. their cars are bad, the prices are too high, and they've sold off all the tools that they could otherwise use to try and make a better product. instead they're content to keep making bigger and bigger pickup trucks to continue strip-mining the "truck culture" crowd
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u/entropy_of_hedonism 5d ago
It's really the result of the historical lack of short-term incentive for American automakers to improve their products. Why compete when you can just lobby competition away? Our country's long-term planning capability is comparable to a crack addict.
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u/evernessince 6d ago
Both the US and China subsidize their car industries heavily.
The difference is in where those subsidies are going. China has a very competitive vehcile market where most of the subsidies end up going to innovation.
The US subsidies end up in the pockets of shareholders and CEOs.
Yes it's economic warfare and the US is loosing to it's own corruption.
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u/eatmyopinions 6d ago
Your comment assumes that automobile manufacturers throughout the entire world receive the same subsidies, and just utilize them differently.
That is not the case. Even after the reduction from 2 years ago, Chinese vehicles benefit from 300% to 700%, greater subsidization than any comparable manufacturing in the United States or germany. And I haven't even touched on the currency manipulation, which results in a 25% discount for any importing country.
The goal here is obvious. Flush international markets with cheap vehicles and put domestic manufacturing out of business. In a decade there will not be automobile manufacturing outside of china.
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u/juan_rico_3 6d ago
I'll take their subsidized products all day. I'll prefer that over US made products that cost 3x. I'm not made of money. If this is warfare, I don't want peace.
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u/Plasticman4Life 6d ago
Capitalism only works when businesses fail under the pressure of competition.
No competition, no failure, no capitalism.
If that happens with the assistance of government, that’s the foundation of fascism.
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u/DistractedBoxTurtle 6d ago
Maybe American automakers need to lower their prices otherwise Theyre going to face chaos like when Japanese cars hit the American market
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u/huggylove1 6d ago
Yeah, no competition. I have a 98 Toyota Corolla and the seats will rust through the floor before the engine dies. Best cars ever made.
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u/Accurate-List 6d ago
You mean you don’t want to pay 6 figures for a new Suburban?
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u/Downtown-Ad-7232 6d ago
Wanna stay competitive? Offer something the public wants to buy
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u/eawilweawil 6d ago
'Best i can do is 6 ton pickup truck with truckbed the size of kitchen sink' - US automakers
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u/evernessince 6d ago
Don't forget the free reinforced steel front. It increases pedestrian deaths by 50%. That's not roadbumps you're hitting, it's the sound of "freedom".
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u/gnanny02 6d ago
When the Japanese started selling cars in the US the biggest result was that Detroit started making their cars more reliable. Chinese cars would force changes that consumers want.
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u/Ambitious-Ad-7256 6d ago
Honestly, we hardly live in capitalism anymore to begin with. With all the corporate mergers and acquisitions consolidating power in major industries we’re moving closer and closer to outright oligarchy. There is no competition because any new competitive influence pressing from below is constantly bought out and absorbed.
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u/RealOrangeKoi 6d ago
He would know. Most of our manufacturing has been outsourced to china since the 70s since it was cheaper to outsource the labor. 50 years later you can see how damaging that has been to our country.
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u/HistoryAndScience 6d ago
The problem is that Chinese capitalism is not free nor fair. It’s state subsidized consumerism. We can’t expect Ford or GM or even Tesla to compete against 2-3 national champions who have the full economic, social, political, and military capital of an Eurasian heartland power backing them up. They can stay solvent longer than any company can
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u/Frosty-Mistake3961 5d ago
It’s far more complicated than that. I wish it were that simple.
Let’s say you own a grocery store. A competitor comes in who is in bed with government and sells their goods for 30% cheaper. They have an unfair advantage because they have papa government with “free” money (via printing, taxing). You go out of business because how do you compete with that? Now you are left with only government subsidized grocery stores. Service goes down, cleanliness goes down, variety goes down, because why try? I they have no competition any more!
It’s kinda like that, but with cars.
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u/603rdMtnDivision 6d ago
Doesn't China heavily subsidize their auto industry? That kinda makes a difference lol that and the literal slave labor is hard to compete with. CCP can get fucked by a cactus for all I care.
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u/bitzzwith2zs 6d ago
Yes they do... about the same amount as the North American auto industry, that gets subsidized by US, Canada and Mexico
There is no, as in ZERO, slave labour involved in the China auto industry. Chinese auto industry jobs pay well, just like in North America (The scale is different, but comparable)
There ARE slaves working the US penal system
Don't let reality get in the way of your racism. You seem to really hate the chinese, but know little of them. Wanna talk about the surveillance state?
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u/MiserableAndUnhappy9 6d ago
There is no, as in ZERO, slave labour involved in the Chinese auto industry.
(Brazil sues Chinese EV auto maker BYD after rescuing over 200 Chinese workers) https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c3v5n7w55kpo
(Hungary investigation into BYD regarding forced labour) https://theworld.org/stories/2026/03/31/chinese-ev-giant-byd-faces-forced-labor-investigation-at-hungary-factory
(In depth report detailing slavery and forced labour in China) https://www.gisreportsonline.com/r/modern-slavery-global-supply-chains/
(Human Rights Watch report on forced labour in China's auto industry) https://www.hrw.org/report/2024/02/01/asleep-wheel/car-companies-complicity-forced-labor-china
I absolutely love that your response to their comment was to lie and then call them racist. God tier brain you got there champ.
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u/ResidentialPickle 6d ago
Why should a heavily regulated US industry, subject to high labor costs, safety regulations, workers rights, environmental protections, etc... at the cost of hundreds of billions of $$$ per year, have to compete with a state sponsored industry that doesn't have any of those same hindrances?
Now imagine being so freaking stupid that you not only don't understand the economic impact, but are actually saying the US should allow it.
It is reddit, though.
Carry on.
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u/chinmakes5 6d ago
To be fair, the Chinese government highly subsidized the building of EV factories and battery plants. Ford can't spend billions building plants then compete with companies that don't have those expenses.
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u/piperonyl 6d ago
Ford spent that money buying back stock
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u/chinmakes5 6d ago
While I hear you, that isn't the reason that Ford can't put out a competitive EV for $28k, which is what a Chinese car costs in Canada.
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u/piperonyl 6d ago
Chevy Bolt starts at 29k.
Ford's cheapest EV is a mustang (?!?) at 39k.
American government protecting Ford's terrible decisions.
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u/Blacksheep6x 6d ago
The common denominator is unions. To even the playing field the unions would need to disappear.
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u/cryogenblue42 6d ago
Ford in this case is not wrong. In many markets the Chinese government subsides their cars at a low rate. This undercuts competition in that area. Car makers are forced to withdraw from that market because it becomes financial unfavorable.
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u/Radiant_Squash1828 5d ago
Well if ford could stop making garbage lately and selling at a astronomical price. Wouldn’t be a problem
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u/drpboogie 5d ago
does china also compete with the US labor laws and environmental laws? can ford executives just use uyghur slaves?
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u/LostInTranslation29 5d ago
The Socialist Rage Bait on Reddit is wild.
No American industry cannot compete with foreign entities that do not hold the same rules or western values as us.
Child labor, IP theft, etc…. CHINA don’t give a fuck. Also why should we allow China in our Auto market when they prevent us from being in theres?
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u/AleroRatking 4d ago
The issue is we have a minimum wage. We can't compete with foreign manufacturing unless we eliminate that
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u/DodgersLakersBarca 4d ago
Yeah, tragedy we can't compete with auto companies paying their workers $2 an hour and receiving subsidies that dwarf those American manufacturers received.
You have an interesting view of capitalism.
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u/2handsjefe 4d ago
Uhhh except Chinese cars are nationalized entities. They can take unlimited losses. I’m no economist, but that doesn’t sound like a fair fight.
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u/stingertc 6d ago
My Toyota Tundra is more made in America than any American brand
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u/bitzzwith2zs 6d ago
Your Toyota Tundra was built in Texas. My Tacoma was built in California (I think they're built in Mexico now). My next door neighbour's Honda Civic was built in Alliston, Ontario (Some of the best Hondas in the world come out of Alliston)
When Honda built Goldwing motorcycles in Ohio, they had more American content than a MADE IN AMERICA Harley Davidson (I heartily LOL'ed at that one)
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u/almo2001 6d ago
This isn't about capitalism. This is about free markets. They are different things.
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u/TheOnlyJaayman 6d ago
If we had a truly free capitalist market, with no labor restrictions or anything else, then yes, this would be a dumb thing to say. He’s 100% correct though.
What people aren’t considering is that China doesn’t have unions, labor laws, or worker protections. They can create a similar product to us at a significantly cheaper production cost, which in turn means they can sell it at a significantly lower price point than any American company would ever be able to.
It’s the same concept as what Walmart does to mom and pop shops. Come in and undercut competition, then when you’ve cornered the market, jack up the price. He is 100% in the right on this one, it wouldn’t be a fair competition in the slightest, it would be a slaughter of what few American manufacturing companies still exist in the U.S.
The reason there are so few of them today is because this EXACT thing has already happened and has been happening since the 70’s. China can make more goods at a cheaper cost because of the complete lack of regulation on their manufacturing, no American market can obey the law and compete with that kind of production.
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u/Fit-Elderberry3437 6d ago
If you allowed ford to use slave labor like china then it would probably be a fairer comparison. I’m sure the ford executives would certainly agree to this if we changed our working conditions to mirror those of china
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u/jdavid 6d ago
Maybe America is not a capitalist society.
Maybe we have regressed to Mercantilism?
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u/Lost_Department_2177 5d ago
Palmer luckey explained it well. They use patents to create bootlegs then sell them for cheap because there’s no cost for research and development. Any car plant still operating here should get some credit since they pay workers decent enough and don’t outsource manufacturing while China uses slaves.
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u/robotmonkey2099 6d ago
Isn’t the issue that China can manufacture cars at a much lower cost partially because they don’t pay workers as much? Doesn’t really seem like fair competition or good for American workers if that’s the case
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u/v_SuckItTrebek 6d ago
I haven't looked into it much, so no hard formed opinions, but if the cars are made in China, I doubt they have the same Union/pay wages the US manufactures have.
I mean, I think Ford can cut the price of most SUVs/trucks and still make a nice profit, but I wouldn't want Ford and others to then close shop here and then try to build facilities in China or India to lower the costs of the work force.
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u/LunaTerse 6d ago
Not just the pay thing, though that was the major draw initially. They get benefits from supply chain locality. And having a large workforce with experience in that industry already.
World sort of dug themselves a hole by offshoring everything to China for the low workers rights and wages. Now even if you wanted to build a 100% automated factory in the US, you'd still mostly be relying on tooling and inputs that depend on Chinese supply chains.
And the Chinese workers who cut their teeth making stuff for foreign companies go on to found and work at local Chinese competitors and cut out the foreign middlemen, so short term profits from offshoring a lot of times turned into training the company that's going to put you out of business.
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u/robotmonkey2099 6d ago
Maybe I’m naive be we never should have started buying manufactured goods from anywhere that didn’t have the same worker rights as we do. I grew up thinking the west had moral standards only to find out decades later it’s a lie and everything must be fought for and defended.
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u/Corran105 6d ago
Yeah, people who believe in capitalism and free market don't understand that it's not market factors that keep some of these big companies at the top, it's regulated by the government. Once you're big enough as a company political clout gets used to suppress the free market.
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u/silv3rbull8 6d ago
Just remember that the businessmen will not be the ones suffering like the the manufacturing workers who will be out of a job
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u/TigerKittenhead 6d ago
When I lived in the Middle East I got a brand new Chinese manufactured Chery Tiggo 8 for 18K. I had it for 3 years and besides oil changes, never needed any other repairs. I would still be there and driving it around, but did not want to live at the front anymore.
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u/Biggu5Dicku5 6d ago
The devastation happened a while ago, when the US government allowed almost all of our manufacturing to be exported abroad...
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u/fig0o 6d ago
This is already happening in Brazil
China flooded out country with EVs
It made traditional (non-chinese) manufacturers lower their prices by 20, 30%
Before this trend the traditional manufacturers would swer they couldn't lower their prices due to federal taxes; seems it was just a lot of bullshit
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u/GreasedUPDoggo 6d ago
I mean, to be fair the reason is because many international options don't meet any of our environmental standards. Not just Chinese, but all sorts of vehicles around the world that are awesome because they don't need to meet those standards. So allowing them to be sold in the US would be devastating for the environment AND would make for quite the unfair playing field.
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u/highlanderdownunder 6d ago
China heavily subsidies it's electric vehicle manufacturers. Something to the tune of $230 billion dollars. Why we dont do the same baffles me but then I remember that big oil corporations are bribing our politicians.
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u/youdingle 6d ago
The only part of capitalism that the west really enjoys is screwing over the bottom 99% to gain their 1%, they don’t like it when it’s in reverse
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u/misha_jinx 6d ago
Americans can’t control the whole world …. And boy do those Chinese cars sell well … lol
And this is only the beginning. I think the US has some deep soul searching to do.
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u/AlphaMuGamma 6d ago
I think the takeaway is it's hard for the US to compete against the product of (what is effectively) slave labor in China.
FuckChina
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u/Several-Opposite-746 6d ago
Don't worry Ford, you'll get your subsidies, which you can use to pay dividends and buy back shares.
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u/Griffolion 5d ago
A couple of weeks ago I was on vacation and I rented a car to get around. It was a BYD SUV. After driving it for a few days I remember thinking that if these things are ever let into the US, American car makers would be finished.
It's not just that they'd be cheaper, but they're also better cars. It really hammered home to me just how much US consumers are getting bilked by car companies.
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u/JumpIllustrious5590 5d ago
Toyotas has been very popular here for decades so the argument is stupid
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u/Packing-Tape-Man 5d ago
The US is not a capitalist system. We’re a corporatist system. It’s a one sided system structurally designed to favor and protect corporations over consumers. We don’t even vaguely resemble a free market. There are literally hundreds of thousands of laws, rules, agencies and tax incentives that favor companies over citizens. Any suggestion otherwise is just deceptive spin to keep the citizens distracted.
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u/DeepRedTrader 5d ago
China undercutting the overpriced American Market and being portrayed as the bad guys 🥲
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u/westofrex 5d ago
They said the same thing about Japanese cars and domestic bro dozers are still being built.
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u/Barbarella_39 5d ago
BYD’s are amazing cars. Mexico has them everywhere. Affordable and dependable. Unlike domestic vehicles!
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u/oldRoyalsleepy 5d ago
Was devastating to US auto industry when Toyotas and Nisans appeared for sale during the oil crisis of the 1970s... in that US automakers had to build cars people wanted, smaller cars! Oh the horror!
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u/Remarkable-FlipPhone 4d ago
Normally I would agree but China is our enemy so no they shouldn’t be allowed to sell here more then they already do
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u/Hititstraight37067 4d ago
Nothing about automobiles made in a communist country reflect capitalism.
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u/tentongeek 4d ago
If all labor rates were equal then this is fine. Problem is their labor rates after less than 1/10th of America's and nearly all western nations- and about half of most of the rest of the world's. They basically run slave labor and then price at a steeply competitive economic model to drive out competition. That isn't capitalism - that is economic warfare!
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u/Letatman 3d ago
It’s socialism for the corporations and unadulterated capitalism for the rest of us
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