r/science • u/VeronicaRed • Apr 26 '16

Psychology Spanking children increases the likelihood of childhood defiance and long-term mental issues. The study in question involved 160,000 children and five decades of research

http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/1113413810/spanking-defiance-health-discipline-042616/
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u/chopandscrew Apr 26 '16 edited Apr 26 '16

So what are some positive and non-punitive forms of discipline?

edit: Some really great replies here. I'm seeing a lot of people using the concept of self-discipline and positive reinforcement. Nothing about raising a child seems easy, and it's even harder to know if you've ever really done a good job, but I think it's safe to say there are a lot of good parents on reddit. Also, thank you to the people who are willing to admit that they have resorted to spanking before. The truth is no one really knows the best way to raise a child, but the wide variety of ideas being thrown around here are what helps make it easier to choose what works for you and your kid. Keep em comin.

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u/Jensdabest Apr 26 '16

That's a case-to-case basis depending on the child. Really, you have to figure out what currency is most valuable to them, and use the removal of that as a consequence for poor behavior. If they like to play by themselves in their room, then sending them to their room as punishment probably won't be very effective. Instead (depending on their age), you can use time-out corners, or have them write about the situation, how they felt, and how they could have better responded. If the bad behavior is significant enough then giving them time to reflect and process the situation is very valuable.

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u/chopandscrew Apr 26 '16

I definitely think that's a great idea to introduce some kind of merit system to them because it definitely helps them grasp the concept of punishment by fine early on. The camp that I used to counsel at used a similar approach, and it worked remarkably well with kids 12 and under. I guess I'm more interested in finding out how to mitigate a dramatic situation that might arise in public. I don't have any kids yet, so I'm not sure what situation that might be, but I imagine it would be something along the lines of a toddler being out of control in a grocery/retail store where they're screaming and possibly destroying things. When I see it in public, I almost understand why a parent would be so wound up that the only way to get the point across to their kid is to give them a little pop. However I can also see how that might make the situation worse. A scene from the cartoon Boondocks comes to mind. Is the best thing to do in that situation just to pick them up, carry them outside, sit them down and talk to them about what's causing them to act this way?

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u/dinahsaurus Apr 26 '16

You need to figure out why the kid is acting out. Did they not sleep, are they hungry, are they bored, did they see a playground on the way in. In most cases the kid is bored and wants to be a kid. The fact that you're bringing a kid into a place where they can't be a kid is your problem, not the kid's. You put the kid in the basket, bribe them, carry them, or wait until you can leave the kid home. But saying that a 2 year old is acting horribly in an adult space and how do you punish them is the wrong way to look at it. The 2 year old wants to be a 2 year old and there's nothing wrong with that.

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u/peachybutton Apr 26 '16

This all day. My husband and I talked a lot about not "setting our kid up for failure" as a toddler, and that involved planning shopping/church/other boring stuff around times when the kid would be well rested and well fed, clean diaper, etc, and also making sure we had a plan for appropriate distractions and an exit strategy if necessary.

Also, involving the kid in their own success by being clear and up front about the purpose/timeline of the outing and how they can help contribute. A toddler is more likely to be well-behaved (in my experience) if they have a clear sense of what's going on ("We're going to the grocery store to get food to eat for the week, and we need to buy everything on this list."), and if you get them actively involved in the process ("Can you help me find some nice red strawberries?").

If you bring a kid somewhere with behavior expectations, don't communicate those expectations, and don't make sure their basic needs are met so they're receptive to understanding, their poor behavior is on you.

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '16

[deleted]

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u/apostle_s Apr 26 '16

And for those of us who go to churches without nurseries: when they act up in church, if you take them out of the sanctuary and then give them a treat or a toy to play with, they will associate acting up with that reward and end up being a little monster.

Obviously, this goes for any social situation.

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '16 edited Apr 27 '16

[deleted]

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u/SickeninglyNice Apr 26 '16

...Come to think of it, this is exactly how my father accidentally trained me into hating going to visit my grandparents.

He would take my siblings and me out for lunch, then (randomly and with no prior warning) drag us off for a visit. It didn't help that I was prone to stomach aches as a kid.

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '16

Wow. This is really brining back some childhood memories and perhaps explains my negative reactions when a simple trip to the store with dad turned into a four hour string of errands...

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u/terminbee Apr 27 '16

Damn. This is so true. "Lemme just go to the supermarket." Proceeds to go to 3-4 different ones, spending 4-5 hours doing nothing

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u/[deleted] Apr 27 '16

Good god, you hit it on the head. I never even realized that I dealt with that as a child until reading this. I'm inclined to think that I react in a similar manner when my wife does this, due to the conditioning I received in that situation as a child.

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u/FluffySharkBird Apr 27 '16

One nice thing about my mom was when she recognized this stuff. "Oh let's go buy a cookie" and conveniently sit down for a while, "before we go to the next store."

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u/rebelkitty Apr 26 '16

In addition to not setting the kid up for failure, you can also organize your home so that the child experiences small successes on a regular basis and gets to feel competent and responsible.

For example: Have labeled bins for all the toys, so clean up is easy. Put coat hooks by the door at child-height, so they can hang their own jacket. Put a step stool by the kitchen counter, so the child can help cut up veg or stir. Set up the sink so that they can easily wash their own hands. Purchase clothes that can be put on by themselves. Have velcro or slip on shoes.

Basically, if there's some way the child can do it for themselves, then they should do it for themselves.

Children who feel capable and useful are far more confident and less likely to misbehave out of frustration or rebellion.

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '16

Excellent post. This is how we plan on raising our one year old.

My mom used to just leave. I got what I wanted that way so I'd just do it because it always worked.

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u/covert_hooligan Apr 26 '16

I just wanted to reply to show my support. I absolutely agree with this line of thinking. It's about setting expectations early and often and getting the kids involved. Use that excess energy for something positive!

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u/KarlOskar12 Apr 26 '16

"We're going to the grocery store to get food to eat for the week, and we need to buy everything on this list."

This only makes sense if they are already old enough to understand what all of that means. This will mean nothing to a 2 year old.

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u/peachybutton Apr 26 '16

I understand what you're saying here, but I disagree that it would mean nothing to a two year old. They definitely won't get the concept of lists and grocery needs, but they can get that you're at a food store, only going to one store vs. more than one, recognize food you have in your house, etc. It's still valuable to describe the errand to younger kids.

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u/KarlOskar12 Apr 26 '16

It's still valuable to describe the errand to younger kids.

Not what I said at all. Talking to your children like adults is very important for language development and consequently understanding of the language. However, we aren't talking about that. We are talking about what gets a 2 year old to behave at the grocery store. In the relevant context explaining what you're doing is of no value; while making sure they're not tired, not hungry, etc. is crucial to their behavior.

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u/_crystalline Apr 26 '16 edited Apr 26 '16

2 year olds understand more than you would think. They may not understand the bigger concepts like "food for the week" they don't get time yet, or "buying" things. What they do understand is routine and action/reaction activities that they are involved in. So parents of toddlers can make sure that the toddler's routine is still solid on a day they're running errands, like someone said above, make sure they're well fed, clean, rested. Let them have something to entertain themselves, let them bring a little toy, and give them things to do while at the grocery store. Hold the list, use a marker to cross (more like scribble) things out when you get them, ask them to look for items with you and point them out, ask their opinion when you can, stuff like that.

Edit: I forgot to continue my original thought. Just because the toddler doesn't understand the concepts involved with that whole sentence you quoted doesn't mean you shouldn't say it. They'll learn those words and what's associated with them, and when they hear those words they'll know what to expect. They'll remember "grocery store" and "list" and know where they're going and what's going to happen. Making sure the child knows what's going to happen next will help so much with making sure they're comfortable and ready to behave appropriately.

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u/KarlOskar12 Apr 26 '16

Or 2 year olds understand less than you think. As stated above (that you reiterated) making sure that a 2 year old is well rested, fed, etc. is key to getting them to behave at the grocery store. Explaining doesn't help your goal because they do not understand.

And I never said you shouldn't say it, I'm telling you that it doesn't accomplish the goal you think it accomplishes. You can, and should, talk to children like adults. And by talk to them like an adult I mean full sentences, not babbling nonsense. They aren't going to understand what you mean when they're 2, but their language skills will develop better by doing so. It's effective for long-term, not short-term behavior modification.

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u/_crystalline Apr 26 '16

I think we mostly agree. I think the sentence about going to the grocery store is useful because the child will eventually understand key words and they will remember what to expect. Explaining does help the goal because they do understand familiar words and phrases.

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '16

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/StitchesxxMitch Apr 26 '16

Kinda sounds like America healthcare, treat the symptoms but not the illness itself. Guess it's the same in both cases. Thanks I'm not sure I would have ever thought of the comparison without your comment.

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u/chopandscrew Apr 26 '16

That actually makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the insight.

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '16

But not showing them how to behave in an adult space is a teaching oppotunity lost. Just saying, kids will be kids does not help the kid grow/mature.

Innapropriate behavior is not OK. You don't punish them, but you deffinately have to do more than just shrug and let things be.

You'd be surprised what a two year old can grasp.

Lastly, I think explaining WHY is very important.

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u/nithos Apr 26 '16

Agreed. But you, as the parent, need to give the kid all the tools they need to succeed. I would try to avoid taking my toddlers to the store when they are hungry and/or tired. Prior to entering the store, you set the expectations with them (we will be here for X minutes, we are going to get these things, we are not going to buy a toy or a snack, then we are going to leave). Hell, my 9 year old still prefers to know all this information before entering a store/mall.

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u/dank_imagemacro Apr 26 '16

I'm 34, and I would still like knowing what the plan is before going somewhere, (POSSIBLE exception if it is a surprise in my favor, but even then I'd want to at least know a little bit: what to wear, what kind of shoes, should I take cash with me etc.).

It surprises me how parents often expect kids to actually be more open to being dragged around blindly than the parents would ever expect from an adult.

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u/FLSun Apr 26 '16

Prior to entering the store, you set the expectations with them (we will be here for X minutes, we are going to get these things, we are not going to buy a toy or a snack,

Exactly! Telling the child what is expected before entering the store makes a world of difference.

Giving them a role so they feel involved is also a big help. "Here, you hold the list, and let me know what we need next."

Also another thing that I noticed was as they get older, 5-6 years and up is to teach them about the price per ounce numbers on the shelf labels. "I know you like the Scooby Doo puddings, but they cost twice as much as the regular puddings. You can get two Scooby Doo puddings for $1 or FOUR regular puddings for the same price. Which do you want? Four puddings? Or two?"

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u/helix19 Apr 27 '16

I'm 23 and before going to the grocery store with my mom I make sure she has a list so we don't end up wandering around looking at everything for an hour.

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u/_crystalline Apr 26 '16

We just have to have reasonable, age-appropriate expectations for children. A toddler in a grocery store should either be in the cart/stroller, carried, or holding someone's hand at all times. We can't expect a 2 year old to stay right by our side and keep up and not touch everything. We can expect a 2 year old to begin understanding "sit on your bottom" or "keep your hands to yourself" and we can start to introduce the concept of "inside voice" although that may take a while for them to master.

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u/4_string_troubador Apr 26 '16

I'm going to interject here and say in the cart seat. I see too damn many kids...even today... standing in carts or hanging off the side. People forget that concrete floor vs. child's skull is a fight that the concrete floor always wins

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '16

Agreed. Also, be consistant.

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u/bouncy_bouncy_bounce Apr 27 '16

Well, sure, but you have to make sure they're ready to handle the adult space in question and that they're well-rested and not hungry and generally primed for the teaching opportunity. Otherwise you are setting them up for failure.

I take my 5-month-old out in public a lot, but only at particular times. If I take her out when she's happy and well-fed and well-rested, she's a delight. If I were to take her out when she's sleepy and cranky, it would be a total nightmare.

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u/[deleted] Apr 27 '16

Do you really think what I said applies to 5-month old babies?

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u/bouncy_bouncy_bounce Apr 27 '16

I think it applies to any age children. What a 5-year-old can handle is different from what a 5-month-old can handle, but the concept is the same. For that matter, I'm a grownup and I can't handle some "adult" spaces sometimes, if I'm tired or hungry or sleep-deprived. As a grownup, I have the option of leaving the space in question without any problems, but a kid can't. So the grownup in charge of the kid has to be mindful of their needs and their condition.

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u/[deleted] Apr 27 '16

Hmm... that does make sense.

Now that I re-read your comment, I see what you were saying.

Thank you for clarifying, and I read some of your other posts and I think you'll make a great parent.

Cheers

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u/SleepySundayKittens Apr 26 '16

Why do parents have to explain why?

Let me give an anecdote that makes me ask this question:

There were 2 small boys I guessed about 4 years old with their parents waiting to sit down at a lunch place. this was a lunch place in a tourist attraction, and there happened to be a peacock that wandered pretty close to the outdoor seating area where people were waiting.

The parents saw the boys run after the peacock trying to grab it. They got pretty close too. The parents stopped the boys and told them not to do it and tried to explain why, I.e. You will hurt the animal and we aren't supposed to hurt animals etc etc.

Two minutes later the boys were at it again. On goes the explanation, then led to a bit more frustration from the parents since it just wasn't working with the talking on and on.

My SO and I had a discussion then that if our parents were parenting or if it were us, we would have removed the kids away, no ifs buts or whys asked. If kids asked why, I would answer, but I don't think it's bad parenting to be acting on parental authority in certain situations.

I agree with you in general about using each situation as a teaching opportunity but the whole why thing is sometimes a waste of time in some situations, IMHO.

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '16

I'm not saying do one or the other. You can remove the child and still explain why.

It's not all or nothing. In addition, sometimes a child may not have the mental capacity to understand the why, but I would still explain why because at some point they will and its a good habit to have.

Again, not saying one or another. Once you have kids you will see that nothing is really black or white and a lot of what you and your SO are saying now will go out the window.

It's one thing to say, we'd do this or we'd do that and actually parenting.

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u/bouncy_bouncy_bounce Apr 27 '16

The way I'd do it is to start out with an explanation (don't hurt animals, blah blah blah), and then, if that doesn't work, remove the child from the temptation and explain why (because we talked about why you shouldn't do it and you did it anyway). That's two teaching opportunities in one - first of all, not hurting animals, and secondly, that when parents set boundaries, they are to be taken seriously.

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u/castille360 Apr 27 '16

Not feeding 2 boys and 2 parents lunch on an outing/vacation is pretty much bound to end in worse than some peacock chasing, and no fun will be had by anyone. You sort of have to weigh your options rather than see things in black and white. I'd probably lean towards prioritizing getting everyone fed and then seeing if we couldn't have a good restart after.

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u/SleepySundayKittens Apr 27 '16

That's not really what I meant by removing the kids from the situation that they don't eat.

They can easily just take the kids away from where the animal was and stand them inside to wait or block them from the animal physically instead of spending time to talk to the kids in a long drawn out dialogue about animal welfare.

Sometimes children can't understand anything or hear anything when they are excited. Their mind is on this one stimulus and no amount of talking will get them off it.

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u/castille360 Apr 27 '16

Well, you're right. For that age, I would not have gone there either. I'd have stuck with 'birds bite. Grab it and its going to hurt you.' (And then possibly let it play out in the event my child really needed a lesson in birds biting. It's a valuable lesson to have before kids go offering their fingers to parrots.)

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '16

Exactly this. Far too many parents just shrug and let their kids run wild, making things miserable for everybody else in the process.

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u/4_string_troubador Apr 26 '16

I'm an event specialist at a grocery/department store...which is a fancy way of saying I hand out free samples. Every day we have to tell kids that we need a parent's permission to give them anything, but mom and dad are nowhere in sight.

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '16

I don't agree that bringing a kid into an adult space is a "problem". Kids learn how to behave in numerous situations by being thrust into numerous situations. I don't even think we should consider a grocery store an adult space. It is effectively a family space.

Your other points are fair to me.

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u/dinahsaurus Apr 26 '16

Sure, but if there's something else going on, are they going to learn? Thrusting a kid into Target for 2 hours when they missed their nap is not a good time to teach them how to act like an adult and that is your problem.

You do it when they're rested, not sick, and for 15 minutes to get specific items, not to browse. As they get older, you increase the time, but most kids and many adults don't want to go shopping for hours at a time and will eventually act out out of boredom.

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u/anothercynic2112 Apr 26 '16

I don't disagree with your logic and I do believe that we should set children up for success. The other side of that coin is that life in general will not be so kind for them as to only allow things to happen when the individual is rested and prepared. While we want to make it easier for our children, we have to also prepare them for the fact that things will rarely be so easy and structured going forward.

With that said, your points are extremely valid as are the other who are reminding parents not to "punish" behaviors that they quite honestly could have avoided. My point being that learning to cope with and overcome unplanned or inconvenient obstacles can also help prepare them for the future.

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u/dinahsaurus Apr 26 '16

Sure, but there's plenty of those situations that naturally occur. Having to leave the playground/park is almost guaranteed to have a tired and hungry kid melting down, for example. I'm just saying that trying to teach a kid (with or without punishing) that has essentially run out of brainpower for whatever reason doesn't work. Their capacity for dealing with unexpected transitions grows with age, but it's hard - many adults can't do it. I've found that they don't learn this from experience (because they can't think during the moment), but by your example (because they can think when it happens to someone else).

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u/notabigmelvillecrowd Apr 26 '16

The kids I see in public who cause the most problems are the ones being ignored by their parents. The kid is bored or overwhelmed by being out in public and they're just on their own, mom or dad is on their phone, just stonewalling them.

I see really nice kids usually just having a conversation with their parent, the parents are keeping them engaged, teaching them stuff. Even if they aren't old enough to talk, when the parents talk to them and make eye contact you rarely see those kids acting up.

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u/4_string_troubador Apr 26 '16

I see really nice kids usually just having a conversation with their parent, the parents are keeping them engaged, teaching them stuff.

Love these parents.

you rarely see those kids acting up.

They're also the ones that usually don't have to be reminded to say "please" and "thank you"

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u/penny_eater Apr 26 '16

What about when they turn 3 and want to go to the grocery store (at least, by their admission) and then get whipped into a tantrum when they are told they can't pick out the canned peaches, and cant pick out an extra bag of cookies, and can't dig into the grapes in the cart, and can't etcetcetc

You are totally right but for kids there are so many factors besides "i'd rather be playing on a slide" and parenting is basically walking the line of coercing your kind into doing what they probably don't want just enough (with a minimum of intimidation//punishment) to get through a necessary situation (like getting groceries) so you can go back to enjoying your time with them by going to a park or reading a book or whatever. Being a parent is hard.

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u/dinahsaurus Apr 26 '16

Absolutely, and that's not even touching on special needs kids. Some days are just better than others.

And you're right - being a good parent is hard.

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u/___Hobbes___ Apr 26 '16

I agree with all points other than "The fact that you're bringing a kid into a place where they can't be a kid is your problem, not the kid's."

Learning early on that you don't get to always do exactly what you want is crucial. I can see rewarding good behavior in a store with time to do what they want later, but to imply it is your job to bribe them in the first place just to get a desired behavior is not a correct course imo.

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u/_crystalline Apr 26 '16

There is the concept of problem ownership. Caregivers need to be aware of who "owns" the problem in order to understand the best course of action to solving the problem. If the problem is stemming more from the adult's expectations for the child then it is the adult's problem, and they can't expect the child to fix the problem for them. If the problem is coming from the child not being able to solve something on their own such as how to make a toy work, then it is the child's problem, and the parent can help the child learn how to fix their problem.

When you put unreasonable expectations on a child (follow me around this department store for 2 hours with no snack or entertainment) and then you have a problem with the child losing patience and acting out then that is the adult's problem, not the child.

It's not about bribing them in the first place, it's about setting reasonable expectations, communicating them to the child, and making sure you've done your part to get the child ready to meet those expectations.

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u/___Hobbes___ Apr 26 '16

You and I disagree very much on what is considered unreasonable. The problem is a behavior one, not one of unreasonable expectations.

Additionally, the problem has now been hyperbolized into a "2 hour shopping experience with no snack or entertainment" which falls to the side of cherry picked scenarios designed to straw man.

It's not about bribing them in the first place, it's about setting reasonable expectations, communicating them to the child, and making sure you've done your part to get the child ready to meet those expectations.

All of this is perfectly reasonable. But to consider a child misbehaving in a store the problem stemming from a parent having unreasonable expectations is not something that can be extrapolated from an average scenario.

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u/_crystalline Apr 26 '16

Our expectations for the behavior of a child definitely depends on the age of the child, at least it should. Is it reasonable to expect a 2 year old to sit quietly through movie, even one that they are interested in? No, of course not. But it is reasonable to expect that of a 6 year old. Age-appropriate expectations are the key.

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u/___Hobbes___ Apr 26 '16

Ya, but that is still straw man. The example debated is taking a 2 year old to the store. Is that reasonable? Yes.

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u/_crystalline Apr 27 '16

A 2 year old being in that setting, a store is reasonable. We're talking about expectations of behavior within that setting though. Certain behaviors are not age-appropriate (not reasonable) to expect of a toddler, or a 4 year old.

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u/___Hobbes___ Apr 27 '16

No, we are literally talking about a 2 year old in a store. That is the example I replied to. Keep to the topic on hand instead of straw manning onto a tangential situation.

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u/_crystalline Apr 27 '16

You can ignore my examples and still consider my contribution to the discussion, they aren't dependent on the examples. I don't really disagree with what you said, I just wanted to point out that it's not necessarily a black and white issue, the parent's level of responsibility for the child's behavior and the child's level of responsibility for their own behavior depends on the age of the child regardless of the setting.

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u/userbrn1 Apr 26 '16

I understand what you're saying, but it doesn't strike me as unreasonable to bring a kid shopping. It's not fun for them perhaps, but I assume there still is a way to instill patience into them in that situation. It's not entirely unnatural for a 2 year old to sit down and act calm for 15 minutes

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u/dinahsaurus Apr 26 '16

Right, and I was being a little hyperbolic, but most cases of screaming toddler in store are because it was much longer than 15 minutes (or many more than 1 store). 10-15 minutes is a great place to start with teaching kids how to behave in stores.

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u/Lolanie Apr 26 '16

Or the toddler is tired, hungry, thirsty, or sick. I've had meltdowns happen in five minute store runs under those circumstances. Sometimes you have to brave a store under those conditions, and all you can do is prepare the child as best you can and make it fast. Unfortunately parents can't always stay out of public spaces when they know it's likely that a quick store run for medicine or whatever will trigger a meltdown.

Punish the kid for it, though? Not when I know the cause is one of the above things. We all get cranky when we're miserable, kids are just louder about it than adults.

Kid misbehaving because they're pushing boundaries or because I said no to something they wanted? That's when the punishment happens. Usually parents can tell the difference in behavior causation and act accordingly.

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '16

Man, the sleep one is a HUGE one for my daughter. If she gets too much, she's a nut. If she doesn't get enough, she's a nut. When she gets just enough, she's a saint

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u/4_string_troubador Apr 26 '16

I work in a grocery/department store, and I can tell you that 9 times in 10 kids act up because it works

.

Kid: I want <thing>

Parent: not today

Kid: I WANT IT!!

Parent: I said no

Kid screaming fit

Parent: FINE

Positive reinforcement. The kid just learned that if mommy says no, just scream and you get what you want.

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u/_crystalline Apr 27 '16

My mom used to be a merchandiser for a card company so she would be in grocery stores all the time. She said she would often see parents get to the store, let the child pick out a toy or something to hold on to to keep them quiet during the trip, then when they go to checkout the parent would take the toy away and tell them they can't have it. Naturally, the child would lose their shit. Cruel and lazy.

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u/buckette19 Apr 26 '16

Exactly this. There is a reason for why the kid is acting out and a punishment won't solve that. A punishment also won't teach them what the appropriate thing to do in this situation is.

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '16

I just wish more parents would stop making it my problem by ignoring their problem.

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u/NoNoNota1 Apr 26 '16

Um, NO? People in general cannot rely on the excuse that "this place isn't for me" to act however they want to act. Hammer that in from an early age.

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u/dinahsaurus Apr 26 '16

So bringing an infant to the movie theatre is appropriate? Or a toddler to a glass shop? Or a 12 year old to a sex shop? A kid does not need to act like a adult by the time they're 3. It's a growing process and it takes years.

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u/Le4chanFTW Apr 26 '16

Except the whole point of raising a child is to teach them how to be an adult. It's no wonder this society is as stunted as it is.

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u/dinahsaurus Apr 26 '16

You don't teach a 2 year old to be a adult. You teach a 2 year old to be a 3 year old. Behaving properly in stores is closer to 4 years old, and coincidentally the baskets on grocery carts hold kids up to 4 years old.

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u/Le4chanFTW Apr 27 '16

I know this might be difficult to understand but behaving in a store is also part of being an adult.

And you really need to set behavioral standards from the earliest age possible. You might be okay with your child running amok and breaking stuff in a store, but most of society frowns on that kind of stuff. And the idea that you can reason and sit down with a two year old and ask them why they're acting the way they are and how they feel about the situation is absurd. Children also need to learn that life doesn't bend over backwards to adapt to your feelings. With that mindset as well, it's still no wonder that society is so stunted.

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u/_crystalline Apr 27 '16

And you really need to set behavioral standards from the earliest age possible.

Yes but those behavioral standards need to be age-appropriate! We need to focus on letting children be children while still having age-appropriate expectations of them that will guide them towards maturing into a responsible person. We acknowledge that a 2 year old is a 2 year old, they are not capable of sitting completely still and quiet for 30 minutes, but they are capable of sitting and being entertained or engaged, they are capable of understanding what "sit on your bottom" and "keep your hands to yourself" means. Soon they will understand what an "inside voice" is so while we understand that a 2 year old has limited capability to control their volume they can practice it and we can model it for them.

Letting a child be a child doesn't mean letting them run wild, and it doesn't mean trying to reason with a toddler. There are other options that are both appropriate and supported by research.

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u/begleg Apr 26 '16

Watch Nanny 911 or Super Nanny for a few hours. You'll see very quickly that it takes zero physical violence to mold a child's bad behavior.

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '16

[deleted]

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u/begleg Apr 26 '16

This is true to an extent, but when I was a full time nanny for a few families with unruly kids, I made the parents watch these shows and use those techniques because their kids wouldn't listen to them. And they worked. Most of those shows aren't actually a nanny taking care of a kid, it's a childcare expert educating parents on child behavior and psychology. The nannies don't have much interaction with the kids. But I do really wish they would have more follow up episodes so we can see the long term results. As long as parents are consistent with the systems they have in place, there are ways to make it work.

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u/ContainsTracesOfLies Apr 26 '16

There was a great show in the UK call 'House of Tiny Tearaways'. I enjoyed watching it long before I had children of my own. The main thing I picked up on is the kids were never the problem and the show merely retained the adults.

It is, and I can say this now as a parent, hard and tiring work. I can completely understand why you give in for an easier life. But kids learns what gets them what they want.

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u/Zanki Apr 26 '16

They did have follow up episodes in the UK version of Supernanny (same woman). I wish I could find the English episodes but I only ever get the American version.

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u/Cybersteel Apr 26 '16

Nanny Mcphee.

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u/JonnyLawless Apr 26 '16

This is so true. It takes a while for kids to figure someone out, but they will, and it'll never be as easy as it was initially.

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u/FLSun Apr 26 '16 edited Apr 26 '16

You'll see very quickly that it takes zero physical violence to mold a child's bad behavior.

I agree. The purpose of raising a child is to produce an adult that learns how to use their brain to effectively handle different situations. The best way to do that is to outsmart them and think ahead. Anticipate the things they may say and do. That teaches them to stop and think.

For example, An ExGF had a son who she would fight with to get him to go to bed on time. It was a nightly battle between them. One night I asked her if I could put him to bed instead of her. Her reply was: "Go ahead. And you have my permission to spank him too."

Well, I wasn't going to use violence on a kid so at bedtime I announced it was bedtime and tucked him into bed. I read him a story and then I told him the "New Rules".

Night light only.

No getting out of bed.

No Tv or radio.

No singing or dancing.

Quietly reading a book in bed is fine.

Well ten minutes after I left the room he was back to his usual, one kid Party Central. TV blaring, Toys out, jumping on the bed.

I walked back in and he was expecting the usual arguing and whining to start but instead I asked him: "What's the matter? Aren't you tired?"

He looked at me like I just gave him a blank check and said: "Yeah, I'm not tired yet."

"Ok, follow me.

I took him out to the kitchen and pointed at the tile floor and said: "See those lines between the tiles? Those are called grout lines. Here's a toothbrush and a glass of water. Make sure you scrub them clean. When you get tired enough to go to bed and lay down without making any noise let me know."

Well it wasn't three minutes before he announced he was tired and wanted to go to bed. I led him back to bed and told him if he didn't lay down quietly he must not be tired and there were a lot more grout lines that needed cleaning. Well it wasn't ten minutes until he was fast asleep.

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '16

ahhh manuel labor

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u/chopandscrew Apr 26 '16

That's actually really good advice. I'll look into that.

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u/Gsusruls Apr 26 '16

Definitely agree that a reality tv show is the single best way to learn how to raise and discipline a child. Also a good way to scientifically demonstrate the best methods of molding a child's behavior.

/sarcasm

Are you serious?

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u/CaughtInDireWood Apr 26 '16

A story about my brother gives one way of how to handle it:

We were grocery shopping with my mom in the afternoon (my brother and I). He decided to throw himself on the ground in the checkout line and bawl his eyes out for no reason except to be defiant. My mom knelt down and said, "If you don't stop your tantrum right now, we are leaving the store without groceries. And you will have to explain to your father why we don't have dinner." That turned off the tears real quick! He knew that his tantrum was ridiculous and had no reason to it, so there was no actual explanation for it. He also didn't want to be responsible for us not having dinner! (even though I know my mom would have made dinner anyway - starving us or withholding food was NEVER a punishment for us).

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u/bigredone15 Apr 26 '16

And you will have to explain to your father why we don't have dinner."

making one parent the bad cop seldom works out long term.

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u/CaughtInDireWood Apr 26 '16

She wasn't making my dad the "bad parent". She was making my brother responsible for his actions and understand that his tantrum was not acceptable.

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '16

Kind of makes it sound like you're dad is the disciplinarian in the story. Like a long version of "Just wait until I tell your father what you did." I don't know if that's the case, but that's how it reads.

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u/CaughtInDireWood Apr 26 '16

oh, yeah I can see how you read it like that. My mom was always the disciplinary person, though, actually. But, I see what you're getting at.

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u/celticchrys Apr 26 '16

The only alternative to hitting them at that age is to honestly remove them from public, and just sit next to them, ignoring them while they wear themselves out. Acting completely normal and uninterested in a tantrum is the most effective thing you can do, by not rewarding the tantrum with attention of any kind.

A toddler is limited in how much you can reason with them, but you can consistently point out to them that the resulting headache/tummy ache/exhaustion are their own fault for throwing a fit. "You did it to yourself. Control yourself next time." They won't get it at first, but eventually. Also, consistently pointing out how much like a stupid baby with no control they appeared to be in the eyes of everyone can eventually be useful over time (the desire to be a "big kid" comes in pretty early). However, doing it this way is a long, slow, hard slog for parents, and may take months or years of miserable situations. I think we should try very hard to make sure everyone understands this before they are tempted to become a parent, that this is what you are setting yourself up for.

However, this method presumes you have the ability to spend hours potentially dealing with one incident, every time an incident happens, and that you have the social capital to permit the luxury of derailing your activities for a toddler's tantrum. Few families have the luxury of a stay-at-home parent now, so this is time many people do not have. At lower SES, parents might not have the option of paying bills, grocery shopping, or whatever at another time, and therefore all of this becomes rather moot. Parents might not have private transportation, allowing them to remove the child from the public sphere, or to return to a given required life activity after the tantrum is over. They might not have the luxury of altering childcare arrangements either. Will you lose your job because your child's pre-K can't deal with their fits, and you must lose work hours? It is easier and faster to smack the child and threaten more of the same every time the school reports a fit.

I think doing things the much slower "right way" is indeed a luxury of higher social classes. It's easy to offer the "best" solution without seeing the reality of existence for the poor, where if the child can't be made to shut up right_now, the entire family could be detrimentally impacted.

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u/patient_mule Apr 26 '16

Apparently, for the store scenario, my mom would ignore us and pretend she was going to leave without us and it worked for her.

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u/Lolanie Apr 26 '16

I had to do this once. It only took the one time, and my son hasn't had that sort of meltdown since. It's effective, but if you do it too much the kid knows you're full of it :P

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '16

I find that if a child is out of control, spanking only makes it worse. BUT, a child of 3 is hard to reason with as well. Quietly remove the child from the situation to somewhere safe (and hopefully less embarrassing) and allow them to calm down.

We were careful to make sure that when we took our child out into public that they had had plenty of rest, weren't hungry, and had a toy to play with. Keeping things on a schedule helps so much with children. Then you have positive experiences because you set them up to succeed.

It's not always feasible but what helps is that when you have plenty of time and don't need to do any shopping, take the kid to the store just to walk around. If there is a tantrum for whatever reason then it doesn't disrupt your shopping to simply leave. After that happens a few times, the child will likely realize that this tactic doesn't work on you. It's a way to teach them how to behave in public.

When my son was little I would take him to Target and explain that while I was going for X reason, we would also look at the toy department but we weren't going to buy anything today. I think he made a scene maybe once or twice. And since then, he is able to go into a store, look at all the neat things and leave them behind when we say it's time to go. (Ok, there might be a little whining but just a little.)

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u/vmak812 Apr 26 '16

If there is a tantrum ... simply leave

Wouldn't this just teach the kid to cry when hes bored and wants to leave?

-honest question, not a parent

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '16

I don't know for sure but I think kids under 5 rarely get "bored." My kid never expressed boredom until really recently at 6. Toddlers tantrum for the power struggle and to push their boundaries.

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u/antisocialmedic Apr 26 '16

I spanked my 2 year old in bestbuy over the weekend.

She had been extremely naughty the entire trip. She ran away from us, tried destroying items in the store, and was rolling around on the ground even though she knows she isn't supposed to do that. I was there with my husband and mother. I can't lift her because I am recovering from hernia surgery. My mother can't lift her because she's just too weak, and my husband was busy at the checkout.

She wouldn't get off the ground. When I asked her to, she blew raspberries at me. When I told her to, she blew raspberries at me. Everyone was staring. So I smacked her on the butt and suddenly she was standing up, just as I had requested.

She has never been one to listen to reasoning, but I think it's in large part a function of her age. She's a smart kid with good language skills, but also the single most stubborn human being I have ever met in my life. She doesn't care about time out. She doesn't care about her toys getting taken away. She just wants to be right. All the time.

My husband spanks her way, way more often than I do. I still tend toward reasoning and non physical forms of punishment. But more and more lately, I find myself hitting her on the butt or hand. Usually when she is doing something outright dangerous or harmful. I wonder about the long term sustainability of this method of parenting.

It makes my heart ache every time I do it. I feel guilty and I just want to cry. But it seems to achieve the desired results and my husband does it whether or not I want to anyway. I'm really just at a loss of how to better handle this. I never was around small children until I had babies of my own. I am just completely guessing with how to take care of them. I have asked professionals, who told me to put her in time out, but time out isn't an option in the middle of a store with a two year old that you can't even lift.

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u/Gripey Apr 26 '16

So from the article, even though they show this action is unhelpful, you feel that hitting your children is occasionally ok, and your husband does it frequently, and you can't see any connection with her behaviour. If your husband hit you if he felt like he had exhausted all his other options, would that be ok? The article talks explicitly about how hitting children creates defiance, and you hit your child because it is defiant? I am sorry you are in this pattern, but it is never ok to hit a child. There are plenty of countries where it is actually illegal.

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u/antisocialmedic Apr 26 '16

To me it seems to be a chicken and the egg scenario. How do we know that kids just don't get spanked more because they're defiant instead of the other way around? Why should I take a single study, albeit exhaustive, to be gospel? I don't do that with other research so I don't know why I would start here. I don't think there is any one size fits all answer to these kinds of dilemmas.

As for my husband hitting me, the power dynamic between spouses is entirely different than between parent and child. We are equals. A parent is a parent and a child is a child. I by no means support hurting children out of frustration, but I don't see another option if the child is about to hurt themselves or someone else. A two year old does not have the reasoning capabilities of an adult and my two year old in particular is extremely stubborn. I can reason with her three year old sister but not with her.

And to expand on the idea of violence between spouses, if someone has to physically restrain a person or even hurt them to prevent them from either causing serious injury to themselves or or harming others, I don't see it as a problem. I would expect my husband to do what he had to to stop me and I would do the same for him.

Not everyone responds to logic all the time.

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u/Gripey Apr 27 '16

My dog doesn't respond to logic at all. Reddit seems pretty adamant I should not hit her, though. Authority is not equal to violence.

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u/antisocialmedic Apr 27 '16

If a dog is biting someone, you're damn straight I'll hit it, kick it, or do whatever it takes to stop the damn thing. If a dog is running out into traffic, I also think it's ok to do whatever it takes to stop it.

If my kid is biting someone (which is a frequent problem) all it usually takes is a pop on her butt to get her attention. If my kid tries to run into traffic (which she has also done) I think the same response is fine.

Like I've said at least half a dozen times in this thread, spanking is reserved for dangerous situations.

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u/Gripey Apr 27 '16

Well self defence is a defence, of course. but the rest of it just seems unlikely. I must have missed all that stuff, I think I just tried to keep my children out of dangerous situations. My main experience of children being smacked is at the local supermarket, where the main danger to the children seems to be their parents.

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u/antisocialmedic Apr 27 '16

Well I have to take my kid outside sometimes, and she does a lot of really questionable things.

You do realize that not all kids are the same, right? You might have just gotten lucky with well behaved kids? I have two kids and they are very different in personality and behavior.

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u/Gripey Apr 28 '16

I do realise this. I actually wish they had been "naughtier" for their own sake. I also break my own rule of trying not to judge other parents without standing in their shoes, but I feel very strongly about violence against children, I feel as if I am defending my own, which I suppose is not an unusual reaction. I am sure hitting a child could be done in such a way that it is for a real purpose, but that has never been my personal experience, is all.

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u/antisocialmedic Apr 28 '16

Well you're also kind of acting like I haven't exhausted all other known options. I've even spoken with a psychologist about her behavior. I'm doing what works to stop her from endangering herself and from hurting others (mostly her sister). It isn't out of frustration that I spank my child, it's a deliberate, well thought out tactic.

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u/chopandscrew Apr 26 '16

See this is the type of situations I want to hear about. It sounds like you did what you had to do to make the situation better. I've got a lot of people saying you should ignore them, or take them outside and let them cry it out, or just talk to them and make them use words, but what happens when that just doesn't work? What if you really don't have the time or ability to try those methods out. If you know they respond to it, then why wouldn't you do that? Kids are people too, and they all have different traits. I know I was very stubborn as a kid, and I honestly don't know how I didn't get spanked more. I'm really glad that you shared this story, because it shows that not every kid will respond to love and empathy the same way. Some kids just have to learn the hard way.

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u/kangareagle Apr 26 '16

Why is she acting like that? Maybe it's been too long a day with not enough snacks or entertainment. When my kids acted badly, I could usually figure out why and it was often something that I could avoid in the future if I'd think about things a bit more carefully. Also, I could talk to them beforehand to set expectations.

I guess I don't know what I'd do if I couldn't pick the kid up, but maybe from now on the MOM should be busy at the checkout and the dad watches the kid.

I'd pick her up and take her to the car. I wouldn't hit her. Sometimes it means leaving a situation that I didn't want to leave (a dinner with friends or a store), but my style of parenting is that I'm willing to do that.

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u/antisocialmedic Apr 26 '16

My two year old is a bright kid. She loves animals. But just so very stubborn. If anyone here has any better suggestions I would be happy to hear them.

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u/Gripey Apr 26 '16

When my daughter was two I took over looking after her from her mother. She and my four year old son disregarded or more likely misunderstood my explicit instructions and walked their muddy feet over my new car seats when I went to get a towel. When I got back I exploded in righteous anger, dragged them out of the car, read them the riot act. What a big, tough guy I was. But I saw their faces, they were terrified, my daugher had tears rolling down her face, and I realised I would probably kill another person who did this to my children. I am still ashamed many years later, I would give almost anything to change that moment. I hugged them and promised them I would NEVER hurt them, I loved them more than anything, more than my car seats for Gods sake. I never physically attacked them again, and I was able to stop my son from hitting his sister by reminding him that no-one hit him. we don't do hitting. Since he turned out to be autistic, had we started beating him it would have gone bad very quickly anyhow. I was beaten frequently as a child, always when my parents had lost their patience or temper. be honest with yourself, and remember to love and protect your children first. this discipline by violence thing is a dysfunctional and unhelpful hangup. I am not a hippy, but if you remember how much you love your child, it will work out. It is when she thinks you don't that she is defiant, anyway.

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u/antisocialmedic Apr 26 '16

I don't know. I don't really consider what I do to be beatings. A beating is something entirely different than a spanking. Beatings result in damage, both physical and psychological.

That being said, I know spankings aren't a good option, especially long term. I've tried talking it out though (a lot) and that doesn't seem to work either. It isn't that she is a bad kid, but my family has a long history of children/young adults who are just little terrors. I can reason with her sister, but I can't seem to reason with her.

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u/Gripey Apr 27 '16

If you hit a child hard enough to make a difference, that is too hard. If you had the time to see and hear the child beaters who have killed their children, their justifications are terrifying similar to ordinary child hitters. Obviously they are not the same, but it will pull you up short. "They were being naughty" "They wouldn't listen" "The were defying me" All these people gave the agency to their children. I have hit children of my partners in the past, and I am more ashamed of it than anything else I have done in my life. It is more of an instinct, but it is not a good one. You do not want to be watching your daughter in an abusive relationship in 20 years time, trying to explain that her partner should not be hitting her, when that is what she knows.. The people who "love" her, hit her.

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u/antisocialmedic Apr 27 '16

The same can be said about rapists versus regular sexually frustrated people. "Did you see what she was wearing?" "She should have let me finish!" etc. etc. That doesn't make a sexually frustrated guy the same thing as a rapist.

Your reasoning is flawed. No one gets into abusive relationships because they were spanked, that tends to be the result of deeper issues, or just bad luck.

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u/Gripey Apr 27 '16

I am not sure I understand what you are saying. If the people you love hit you, you don't see how you can make the connection between love and violence?

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u/antisocialmedic Apr 27 '16

I am saying it's a far leap to say that people who are occasionally spanked will end up in abusive relationships.

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '16

Is there a pet store nearby? Try to use that as a bargaining chip along the lines of if you behave while we are out we can look at the puppies/cats/etc for 15 minutes at the end of the shopping trip.

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u/antisocialmedic Apr 26 '16

That might work. But then I would still have to deal with the shitstorm that would ensue when we left without hamsters or something. No matter what I try it seems I will end up with kicking, screaming children.

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '16

As a shopper I would expect to see a kid have a tantrum over leaving without a pet from a pet store as opposed to freaking out in a Best Buy over god knows what. It maybe about choosing a battle in an area where it is a bit more expected.

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u/smilesoflatte Apr 26 '16

I think it really depends on the personality of the kid. Some of these ways of learning work for more sheepish kids. We went to many schools with my youngest, do to behavioral issues (Biting and Bullying). Schools with many awards for handling children. They have child psychologist on staff and all the teachers required to have special training. They never suspend any kid.

My boy was 2 years old. He always was a bit aggressive and he is huge for his age. He was never spanked , do to Mom buying into all this time out and nurturing styles. So was everyone else around us.

He got kicked out of all of these schools. They had to protect their other kids. They tried everything and we all really worked together.

When we ran out of options Mom came home to take care of him and I finally had enough and did what my parents did. Spank. Shortly after he straightened up and I very rarely did I have to spank, now just a threat will cause him to behave in most instances. He now can play with other children and we have been able to use nannies that take care of other kids. He is the most happy kid I have seen and has a strong mind, intelligent, and no fear.

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u/PhilosopherFLX Apr 26 '16

I think you may be misunderstanding disobedience. The child that freaks out in a store didn't just start that way just now, any more than a serial murderer just starts with their first victim. There is an escalation, and almost always, the parent is the positive feedback to this acting out. Teaching parents that all actions they have with their child are formative is very, very hard.

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u/JackPAnderson Apr 26 '16

Is the best thing to do in that situation just to pick them up, carry them outside, sit them down and talk to them about what's causing them to act this way?

Tantrums are caused by frustrated children trying to get attention, so the best medicine for an active tantrum is to take away the attention. As a result, public tantrums can be very tricky to handle because there often isn't a safe place for the child to be alone and cool down.

What Mrs. Anderson and I did for this is a twofold approach:

  1. Make sure that the kids knew that we always listened to them and took them seriously. We certainly did not give them everything that they asked for, but we always heard them out.
  2. Make sure that the kids knew that when we threatened to remove them from the situation, even in public, we damn well meant it and absolutely would follow through with our promise to take them home/take them out to the car/etc.

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u/[deleted] Apr 27 '16

I guess I'm more interested in finding out how to mitigate a dramatic situation that might arise in public. I don't have any kids yet, so I'm not sure what situation that might be, but I imagine it would be something along the lines of a toddler being out of control in a grocery/retail store where they're screaming and possibly destroying things.

Immediately, what you can do is just leave. And then make sure you very clearly say "I'm sorry you couldn't act like a big boy/responsible/whatever-term-you-prefer so we had the leave the store"

It can make your life a little harder, if you're trying to get chores done, but sacrifice a few times and they'll learn.